USADA says Jones tested clean the night he fought Gus

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Sheepdog

Protecting America from excessive stool loitering
Dec 1, 2015
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but, had it gone to hearing, the first thing Jones team would have asked are

1) What excretion studies have been performed on turinabol long term metabolites

answer: none

2) can you conclusively rule out that this is a remnant from his 2017 positive

answer: no

At that point the arbitration panel find in favor of the athlete.



Strict Liability isnt actually as rigid as guys like Luke Thomas point out. Yes, you are responsible for everything you put in your body, but, there are degrees of fault, how much responsibility you bear, and that can result in anything from a warning, to a full punishment, Strict liability isnt nearly such a thing as those opposed to anti doping will have you believe.
I am not Luke Thomas and I understand what strict liability means in regards to anti-doping. Surely if you were arguing in good faith, you would just say "yep, my bad, I know it is not incumbent on USADA to 'prove it's a new ingestion'". I am aware of the challenges they would face, but that's not why I pulled you up.
 

Andrewsimar Palhardass

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Jan 8, 2016
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not so much fishy, as there are two things going on here. There is "usada" and then there is "the ufc"

This whole Jones thing, from USADA's pov. They get notified of the positive test and they have to decide if they are going to move forward with an ADRV (Anti doping rule violation). To make that stick they are going to have to prove something, that is a new ingestion. They cannot do that. So they are faced with a choice, charge the athlete, go to arbitration and have Jones team ask them "could this be a remnant of the ingestion from 2017?" and the simple fact is, USADA dont know, so they lose the case. USADA need to have t's crossed and i's dotted when charging an athlete with a violation, in this case they couldnt.

So thats one part, USADA cant make a strong case, so rightfully they err on the side of the athlete. I have no problem with that, thats the right thing to do in these cases. (and dont forget the case doesnt end there, they will keep on testing and monitoring Jones)

So from that pov, USADA have done everything correctly.





Then we come to the UFC. Rather than presenting the above as the facts, they instead choose to to come out with a load of bullshit.

They tell us that only one of Jones samples was positive, they even tell Gus "all his samples were clean except this last one" and then four days later admit they werent.

They take quotes such as Larry Bowers "I dont see anything that represents a fresh ingestion SINCE AUGUST 2018" and completely misrepresent it as Bowers saying "this is conclusively from 2017"

They take quotes from Daniel Eichner "There is no evidence this is a fresh ingestion" and completely misrepresent it as Eicher saying "this is conclusively from 2017"

Misrepresenting the views of THREE people (two of them either current or former USADA employees) as ALL THE TOP EXPERTS IN THE WORLD

They take a study on Clomiphine (A total different substance) and claim that it is conclusive evidence of pulsing (Which anyone who had read the study can tell you it isnt because they classed anything lower than 50pg/ml in the study as not present / below limit of detection)

They fail to inform a licensing commission, that Jones has had multiple positives despite it being the original commission that he had the positive test under because in Jeff Novitzky's words "it didnt seem important"



So, the UFC were faced with a choice, tell us the honest truth from USADA's point of view and treat us like intelligent adults, or, try and totally bullshit us with a load of untruths, misrepresentations, and exagerations.

They chose the latter.






When Dana and Jeff originally said "All his samples except the last one were clean" he was lying.. the truth was multiple samples were positive,

the stupid thing is, the truth, actually made some sense, scientifically at least.

the lie, was scientifically unlikely given the circumstances they claimed, and bordering on the preposterous
Thank you for popping in and providing your assessment. I think to sum it up, USADA found something, they don't know if it's new or old, and they know they can't win in arbitration if they pursue it. UFC is presenting it as if it's definitive that he did nothing wrong this time, when there is no way they can know that, and they are fully aware of that fact even though they are pretending otherwise.
 

Andrewsimar Palhardass

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Its pretty simple for me. They lied. Hence they are hiding something
Hence Jon did something wrong. You don't hide shit when your guy is innocent
It's more of a "he might have done something wrong, and these tests don't completely add up, but to punish him we'd have to go outside of our own guidelines" on USADA's side, and "he might have done something wrong, but fuck it we need to safe face" on the UFC's side.

Technically, it appears that all of the actual deceit has come from the UFC themselves. In either case, though, I think it's not as simple as you're presenting it, at least in the sense that it appears that your stance is that Jon clearly cheated again and everyone involved knows that, because based on the evidence that seems to not exactly be the case.
 
Nov 21, 2015
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It's more of a "he might have done something wrong, and these tests don't completely add up, but to punish him we'd have to go outside of our own guidelines" on USADA's side, and "he might have done something wrong, but fuck it we need to safe face" on the UFC's side.

Technically, it appears that all of the actual deceit has come from the UFC themselves. In either case, though, I think it's not as simple as you're presenting it, at least in the sense that it appears that your stance is that Jon clearly cheated again and everyone involved knows that, because based on the evidence that seems to not exactly be the case.
Its not just that. Just look at Jon's track record for christs sake.

We can't give him the benefit of the doubt and a clean slate

He has a long and I mean l-o-n-g history of operating outside of the law.

He has been lying to the public literally since day one.

He doesn't get a clean slate. He's had a million clean slates.

Now had this happened to someone with no history of disregarding the laws like
DJ or someone like him that has never been in trouble then yes of course you give them
the benefit of the doubt and consider this is way out of their character.

But this is not the case with Juicy. This is not out of his character. Disregarding
the law is so within his character its not even funny.

At this rate It will be 500 violations from now and we are still giving Jon a pass.

Shits gotta stop. Call a spade a spade
 
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Nov 21, 2015
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but, had it gone to hearing, the first thing Jones team would have asked are

1) What excretion studies have been performed on turinabol long term metabolites

answer: none

2) can you conclusively rule out that this is a remnant from his 2017 positive

answer: no

At that point the arbitration panel find in favor of the athlete.



Strict Liability isnt actually as rigid as guys like Luke Thomas point out. Yes, you are responsible for everything you put in your body, but, there are degrees of fault, how much responsibility you bear, and that can result in anything from a warning, to a full punishment, Strict liability isnt nearly such a thing as those opposed to anti doping will have you believe.

Thanks for clearing some things up. I do have one question. I see many people
throwing the idea out that USADA has to be fair to Jon Jones. Ok so when do they
have to be fair to the athletes Jon is punching in the head?

Dana and Novitzsky both sat there and told a bold faced lie to Gus for the sole purpose
of getting him to take a fight with someone they knew full well had failed several tests.

Jon has had a million chances man. He's been treated fairly a million times

When does USADA stand up and treat the guys he punches in the head fairly?

Why did they not immediately come out with a statement and truth about Jon's
failed tests as soon as they saw Novitzsky lying to Gus and the public?

How come they didn't look out for Gus?

How come Jon is the only one being treated fairly and protected?

If USADA had any credibility at all they would have stepped in immediately
and told Dana and Novitzsky they can't be lying to Gus about Jon's multiple
failed tests to coerce him into a fight
 
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jimmy boogaloo

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Nov 15, 2017
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bisping keeps it real

“So Jon Jones passed his post-fight drug test, which was the question that I asked him which pissed him off which led to him being kind of annoyed with me on the post-fight show,” Bisping said on his Believe You Me podcast recently. “I don’t want to turn this into Michael Bisping sh*tting on Jon Jones because he’s a legendary fighter - he was the youngest ever champion in the UFC. But to me - and I don’t know the science, I’m speaking purely from the standpoint that this is a fair question to ask - the narrative as to why he failed the drug test and failed multiple drug tests in August, September, and December, is that these metabolites from the turinabol were in his system from years ago and they could still be there for years and then all of a sudden he tests positive and then it’s brought to the forefront - Devil’s advocate, you would have to be f*cking stupid to continue microdosing - then all of a sudden, voila, the next time he gets tested it is out of his system. I don’t know. I’m not saying that is the reality, I’m just saying that is the first thing that I thought and I’d be lying if I didn’t say so. . .

“That was the narrative going into this fight: ‘Listen, this is remnants, it was leftover from whenever it was.’ But the point of the matter is that Jeff Novitzky was saying, everyone was saying this could be in his system for a long, long time and then , lo and behold, he tests clean.”
Morning Report: Michael Bisping skeptical of Jon Jones’ drug testing situation, hopes the champion ‘stays clean’
 

Andrewsimar Palhardass

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Jan 8, 2016
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Its not just that. Just look at Jon's track record for christs sake.

We can't give him the benefit of the doubt and a clean slate

He has a long and I mean l-o-n-g history of operating outside of the law.

He has been lying to the public literally since day one.

He doesn't get a clean slate. He's had a million clean slates.

Now had this happened to someone with no history of disregarding the laws like
DJ or someone like him that has never been in trouble then yes of course you give them
the benefit of the doubt and consider this is way out of their character.

But this is not the case with Juicy. This is not out of his character. Disregarding
the law is so within his character its not even funny.

At this rate It will be 500 violations from now and we are still giving Jon a pass.

Shits gotta stop. Call a spade a spade
This isn't how litigation works. Past history is taken into account, but it can only be applied to a punishment after guilt is confirmed through due process. Unfortunately for many, scientifically, guilt would have been impossible to confirm in this scenario. We all know Jon is a serial fuck up. That doesn't change the evidence in this situation, though, and there just isn't enough smoke to prove fire at this point.
 
Nov 21, 2015
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This isn't how litigation works. Past history is taken into account, but it can only be applied to a punishment after guilt is confirmed through due process. Unfortunately for many, scientifically, guilt would have been impossible to confirm in this scenario. We all know Jon is a serial fuck up. That doesn't change the evidence in this situation, though, and there just isn't enough smoke to prove fire at this point.
Thats fine and a fair point but lets not act like USADA is this virtuous institution looking
out for the fighters. They are clearly not looking out for any fighters in this case except for Jon

At minimum they should have informed Gus and made a public statement that
Jon failed multiple test before letting Gus take the fight.

Not only did they fail to inform Gus and protect him they did the same thing to Mark Hunt
and allowed Brock another cheat to fight a clean fighter

All I'm asking for is for them to apply the rules fairly and not bend the rules
for certain fighters.
 

Andrewsimar Palhardass

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Jan 8, 2016
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Thats fine and a fair point but lets not act like USADA is this virtuous institution looking
out for the fighters. They are clearly not looking out for any fighters in this case except for Jon
I see how you can feel that way, but in this case, they don't have the evidence to do what you would call looking out for the fighters. Their hands are tied. Antidoping has a ton of grey areas and I think even if you try your hardest and stick to your values 100%, weird things like this will pop up. I'm not saying it's a coincidence that this happened to the best fighter in the world, but if it had happened to a lower-level fighter I don't see a path to prosecution in that scenario either. As Dim @Dim said, Jon's representation will bring up the fact that only long-term metabolites were found, and since USADA can't prove new use, they don't have a leg to stand on and they will lose in arbitration.
 
Nov 21, 2015
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I see how you can feel that way, but in this case, they don't have the evidence to do what you would call looking out for the fighters. Their hands are tied. Antidoping has a ton of grey areas and I think even if you try your hardest and stick to your values 100%, weird things like this will pop up. I'm not saying it's a coincidence that this happened to the best fighter in the world, but if it had happened to a lower-level fighter I don't see a path to prosecution in that scenario either. As Dim @Dim said, Jon's representation will bring up the fact that only long-term metabolites were found, and since USADA can't prove new use, they don't have a leg to stand on and they will lose in arbitration.
They did have the evidence. They knew Jon failed multiple tests and knew Gus and the public
were being lied too. Yet they did nothing.
 

Andrewsimar Palhardass

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Jan 8, 2016
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They did have the evidence. They knew Jon failed multiple tests and knew Gus and the public
were being lied too. Yet they did nothing
That's not their job. The test results were eventually all released.

What do you suggest they do? They have a very specific job. They test the fighters for the UFC and report their findings accordingly. They did that. They didn't release the statements that the UFC released, and they didn't tell Dana what to say.
 
Nov 21, 2015
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That's not their job. The test results were eventually all released.

What do you suggest they do? They have a very specific job. They test the fighters for the UFC and report their findings accordingly. They did that. They didn't release the statements that the UFC released, and they didn't tell Dana what to say.
Now I'm confused. I thought their job was to protect clean fighters from fighting cheats?

What do I suggest they do?

Just common sense. Inform Gus that he is fighting someone with multiple failed tests.
Inform the public that Novitzsky's statements are factually un true

Just common sense and decency.

Instead they once again bent the rules for one fighter and allowed a clean fighter
to unknowingly fight a fighter who had failed steroid tests

If USADA cant even do that then whats the point of having them around?

The whole testing program becomes meaningless once you fail to protect
clean fighters from fighting dirty fighters
 

Andrewsimar Palhardass

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Jan 8, 2016
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They did have the evidence. They knew Jon failed multiple tests and knew Gus and the public
were being lied too. Yet they did nothing.
Also, when I said that they didn't have the evidence, I don't mean that they didn't know that the tests were coming back with the metabolite. They clearly new that. I am saying they didn't have the evidence to get a conviction. That's the big issue that is seemingly being ignored by a lot of people.
 

Andrewsimar Palhardass

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Jan 8, 2016
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Now I'm confused. I thought their job was to protect clean fighters from fighting cheats?

What do I suggest they do?

Just common sense. Inform Gus that he is fighting someone with multiple failed tests.
Inform the public that Novitzsky's statements are factually un true

Just common sense and decency.

Instead they once again bent the rules for one fighter and allowed a clean fighter
to unknowingly fight a fighter who had failed steroid tests

If USADA cant even do that then whats the point of having them around?

The whole testing program becomes meaningless once you fail to protect
clean fighters from fighting dirty fighters
They could not definitively prove that he was still using. This is the distinction that I believe you are missing. USADA can't prosecute on hunches.
 
Nov 21, 2015
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Also, when I said that they didn't have the evidence, I don't mean that they didn't know that the tests were coming back with the metabolite. They clearly new that. I am saying they didn't have the evidence to get a conviction. That's the big issue that is seemingly being ignored by a lot of people.
Yeah I'm conceding that. Lets say they did not have the evidence to punish Jon.

Ok no problem. Can we at least inform the guy he's going to punch in the head that
Jon has failed multiple tests and that he's been lied to to get him to take the fight?
 

Andrewsimar Palhardass

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Jan 8, 2016
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Now I'm confused. I thought their job was to protect clean fighters from fighting cheats?

What do I suggest they do?

Just common sense. Inform Gus that he is fighting someone with multiple failed tests.
Inform the public that Novitzsky's statements are factually un true

Just common sense and decency.

Instead they once again bent the rules for one fighter and allowed a clean fighter
to unknowingly fight a fighter who had failed steroid tests

If USADA cant even do that then whats the point of having them around?

The whole testing program becomes meaningless once you fail to protect
clean fighters from fighting dirty fighters
As for informing Gus, I am not sure what the process is for that so I won't speak on it. I am also not sure about informing the public RE: Novitsky's statements.

Common sense matters, but when litigation is involved, common sense isn't enough.
 

Andrewsimar Palhardass

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Yeah I'm conceding that. Lets say they did not have the evidence to punish Jon.

Ok no problem. Can we at least inform the guy he's going to punch in the head that
Jon has failed multiple tests and that he's been lied to to get him to take the fight?
I don't know what that would entail, and what they are allowed to release/when they are allowed to release it, but I think you raise a fair question. Gus at least knew that the current test was hot, and with the context that was being provided, it would be safe to assume that his previous tests were hot too, but yes I wish he would have been given full disclosure on that, I am just not sure that's USADA's job.
 
Nov 21, 2015
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As for informing Gus, I am not sure what the process is for that so I won't speak on it. I am also not sure about informing the public RE: Novitsky's statements.

Common sense matters, but when litigation is involved, common sense isn't enough.
If they can't inform the public that false statements have been made and they can't inform
clean fighters that they are fighting someone with multiple failed steroid tests then would you
at least agree that the system is broken and has failed to protect clean fighters?
 
Nov 21, 2015
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I don't know what that would entail, and what they are allowed to release/when they are allowed to release it, but I think you raise a fair question. Gus at least knew that the current test was hot, and with the context that was being provided, it would be safe to assume that his previous tests were hot too, but yes I wish he would have been given full disclosure on that, I am just not sure that's USADA's job.
I agree there. Good back n forth by the way. I enjoy a nice discussion where
people don't get their panties all in a bunch just because they disagree.

Disagreement and discussion is good for the soul
 

Andrewsimar Palhardass

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If they can't inform the public that false statements have been made and they can't inform
clean fighters that they are fighting someone with multiple failed steroid tests then would you
at least agree that the system is broken and has failed to protect clean fighters?
I am trying to think on that. My initial instinct would be to agree that they should have come forward when the embedded showing Gus being lied to was released, but this is SUCH a complicated situation that I don't want to make a snap judgment either way, really. We are missing a lot of context, in my eyes namely what their internal processes about releasing fighter data are, and why the original USADA statement (which I just went back and read) only referred to the December 9th results. I am just not sure when tests become publicly releasable, especially considering the fact that they just changed the rules when it comes to announcing potential positive tests.
 

Andrewsimar Palhardass

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Jan 8, 2016
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I agree there. Good back n forth by the way. I enjoy a nice discussion where
people don't get their panties all in a bunch just because they disagree.

Disagreement and discussion is good for the soul
I've certainly gotten into some knock down drag outs on here ( Rambo John J @Rambo John J) but yeah I do think it helps to talk to people with whom you disagree. This is such a weird situation I wanna hear from people who disagree but who aren't trying to get a posse together to burn some houses down.
 
Nov 21, 2015
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I've certainly gotten into some knock down drag outs on here ( Rambo John J @Rambo John J) but yeah I do think it helps to talk to people with whom you disagree. This is such a weird situation I wanna hear from people who disagree but who aren't trying to get a posse together to burn some houses down.
Yeah its all fun to me. If you walk away from this forum pissed off then you
are missing the point of being here. This is supposed to be something we enjoy
 

Rambo John J

Eats things that would make a Billy Goat Puke
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Jan 17, 2015
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I've certainly gotten into some knock down drag outs on here ( Rambo John J @Rambo John J) but yeah I do think it helps to talk to people with whom you disagree. This is such a weird situation I wanna hear from people who disagree but who aren't trying to get a posse together to burn some houses down.
lol how dare you tag me sir(joking)

there is lawyer speak
and there is logic

loopholes and spin are easy to use to justify IMO

Fighters losing braincells and having careers altered via uneven playing field not justifiable IMO

I've been down this road too many times to get involved for more than a post or two
take care guys