Wanderlei has concussion symptoms, wants to donate brain for CTE research

[kneeblock]

Look into the NFL CTE lawsuit from the 2000s and then come back and try to pretend it's been settled science for 100 years. The connection they're making from the 20s is the equivalent of shooting an arrow and painting a bullseye around it.

The NFL case was slightly different because there was a misplaced belief that the collisions weren't regular enough and that the protective gear was sufficient. The CTE findings there had more to do with hidden symptoms leading to mental illness among other things. Despite what the movie Concussion with Will Smith said, the idea that blunt force impact could have negative cognitive effects wasn't new to anyone in the sports world. Pugilistica Dementia was a group of symptoms classified as associated with boxing in particular. It's since been reclassified as a sub-category of CTE now that we know more than getting repeatedly punched in the face can cause it. I lived through the 90s and even trained. Everyone knew what being punch drunk meant.

 

[BeardOfKnowledge]

The NFL case was slightly different because there was a misplaced belief that the collisions weren't regular enough and that the protective gear was sufficient. The CTE findings there had more to do with hidden symptoms leading to mental illness among other things. Despite what the movie Concussion with Will Smith said, the idea that blunt force impact could have negative cognitive effects wasn't new to anyone in the sports world. Pugilistica Dementia was a group of symptoms classified as associated with boxing in particular. It's since been reclassified as a sub-category of CTE now that we know more than getting repeatedly punched in the face can cause it. I lived through the 90s and even trained. Everyone knew what being punch drunk meant.

There's a marked difference between "don't take too many, or you'll end up punchy." And "we know for sure that any blow can lead to CTE."

As I said comparing what they once thought to what they know today and then conflating them is shooting an arrow and painting a bullseye around it. No clue about the Will Smith movie, I've never seen it.

 

[kneeblock]

There's a marked difference between "don't take too many, or you'll end up punchy." And "we know for sure that any blow can lead to CTE."

As I said comparing what they once thought to what they know today and then conflating them is shooting an arrow and painting a bullseye around it. No clue about the Will Smith movie, I've never seen it.

This is just not true. We still don't know for sure that any blow can lead to CTE. CTE is a generalized diagnosis with sub-categories that's made possible to assess by innovations in biochemistry and brain imaging. It's still only reliably diagnosed after death. Diagnosing it by symptoms is still done the exact same way pugilistica dementia was always done. All we've done is put a new name on it and show that there's a broader range of potential mental health consequences than previously known. The average fighter has access to literally no more information now than than they did in 1993 and they're certainly no more likely today to read scientific journals on the exact mechanisms of brain degeneration than they were back then (and even if they did, it wouldn't matter). Wand donating his brain is actually the best possible hope we have to getting a little closer, but until there are some diagnostic innovations, a fighter today is essentially in the same spot as Tommy Hearns or Jerry Quarry.

 

[BeardOfKnowledge]

This is just not true. We still don't know for sure that any blow can lead to CTE. CTE is a generalized diagnosis with sub-categories that's made possible to assess by innovations in biochemistry and brain imaging. It's still only reliably diagnosed after death. Diagnosing it by symptoms is still done the exact same way pugilistica dementia was always done. All we've done is put a new name on it and show that there's a broader range of potential mental health consequences than previously known. The average fighter has access to literally no more information now than than they did in 1993 and they're certainly no more likely today to read scientific journals on the exact mechanisms of brain degeneration than they were back then (and even if they did, it wouldn't matter). Wand donating his brain is actually the best possible hope we have to getting a little closer, but until there are some diagnostic innovations, a fighter today is essentially in the same spot as Tommy Hearns or Jerry Quarry.

I'm sorry but I have to fundamentally disagree. You're trying to have it both ways by acknowledging that there have been diagnostic advances but also pretending that our basic understanding is unchanged. There's significantly more information available to anyone today than there was just 10 years ago.

It would be accurate to say "it's not a secret that getting hit in the head never seemed like a great idea." It's wholesale false to say "we always understood it was this bad." Chris Benoit is the most obvious example of how much our understanding has changed over a short period.

 

[kneeblock]

I'm sorry but I have to fundamentally disagree. You're trying to have it both ways by acknowledging that there have been diagnostic advances but also pretending that our basic understanding is unchanged. There's significantly more information available to anyone today than there was just 10 years ago.

It would be accurate to say "it's not a secret that getting hit in the head never seemed like a great idea." It's wholesale false to say "we always understood it was this bad." Chris Benoit is the most obvious example of how much our understanding has changed over a short period.

You are conflating scientific advances with medical diagnostic advances. We have learned nothing of practical usage to living fighters that we didn't know in 1928. We already had enough information for diagnostic purposes, which is to say very little. What was not doubted among medical doctors and what was widely known in nearly all fighter communities is that getting hit in the head a lot can lead to a cognitive disorder. In science, we rename things all the time. Asperger's is just a version of autism now. Pluto is a dwarf planet now instead of a planet. The reclassification as CTE opens up new avenues for parsing it out and developing new diagnostic and treatment options, but none of them have come about yet. The one thing I'll grant you is that the promotions have provided more information directly to fighters rather than them having to look it up on Lycos or Yahoo back in '98 or just walk around the gym and talk to the old heads who were already staggering.

 

[Haulport]

That's not really a great example. When Ali died in 2016, they still weren't able to say definitively that his Parkinson's was caused by boxing. The same issue plagues CTE. Last I had heard they believe there's a genetic predisposition to whom is more or less likely to develop it.

Oh come now... People claim to somehow not understand that GETTING HIT IN THE HEAD FOR YEARS is going to damage your brain. That's what people want you to believe.

Give me a break...........

 

[BeardOfKnowledge]

You are conflating scientific advances with medical diagnostic advances. We have learned nothing of practical usage to living fighters that we didn't know in 1928. We already had enough information for diagnostic purposes, which is to say very little.

As far as I'm aware in 1928 they had neither the diagnostic ability, or the scientific knowledge to diagnose CTE in a living person.

 

[Enock-O-Lypse Now!]

 

[Γαλάνης]

Wanderlei should have retired after the Stann fight. It was the perfect ending

 

[otaku1]

im pretty sure that doing massive amounts of cocaine didnt do chuck any favors

NyQuil bro.
NyQuil.

 

[otaku1]

It's sad but from what I recall he was already quite punch drunk way back in the 2000s. So his brain must be really fucked by now.
Chuck must be bad as well
And I've been watching him for the last 20 years or so.

 

[Splinty]

"Back in my day, we used to believe that the more punches you took, the more you could take. It’s actually the opposite."

My god. It's like CTE is a causal loop. To think that, you have to already have CTE. But yet that's also the cause of the CTE. Mind blown.

You really took that statement out of context...
He's talking about the long held belief of "training to take a punch"

Full quote...

Back in my day, we used to believe that the more punches you took, the more you could take. It’s actually the opposite. The more you take, the less you’ll be able to handle in a fight. If I could leave one tip for young fighters it’s not to get beat up everyday. Whoever has young students, don’t let them take too many punches to the head, there’s a right time for a harder session, but it can’t be an everyday routine.”

He's admonishing the balls to the wall training. That you don't "toughen up" to prevent a knock out but rather focus on max recovery to do so.



Yes it was known that it existed in being "punch drunk. "

But I also think you guys are ignoring that a LOT of bro science existed/exists in training regimens in Brazil and elsewhere. Especially before the last decade. Scientific rigor and smarter evidence-based MMA training didn't really come into its own until very recently. "Training to take a punch" through chute box's infamously violent training regimens was a thing. And it's not entirely stupid on the part of Wanderlei if you don't have access to the cumulative science. You had the same focus as the NFL and others...it's the "wrong" shot or knockouts that caused it. Yes people knew you got punch drunk but plenty thought you could train your way into defense of it. And with that they took a shit load of damage training, didn't get knocked out in the fight, and then had the confirmation that their training "worked". Until CTE crept up later.

Bas can't even walk down his driveway. Gary Goodridge has CTE. Mark Coleman can barely walk after just training on his back porch with Randelman for a decade. These weren't all stupid people. The training was just in a world of, "go as hard as you can now so you'll be strong enough to not get knocked out or die in the ring".

Just look here:

New Study Finds Hits, Not Concussions, Cause CTE

Only recently with real evidence of any trauma being cumulative, not even stacking concussions or knockouts. These guys didn't have access to that knowledge and they trained with the facts they had available to try to avoid being punch drunk.

 

[kneeblock]

You really took that statement out of context...
He's talking about the long held belief of "training to take a punch"

Full quote...


He's admonishing the balls to the wall training. That you don't "toughen up" to prevent a knock out but rather focus on max recovery to do so.



Yes it was known that it existed in being "punch drunk. "

But I also think you guys are ignoring that a LOT of bro science existed/exists in training regimens in Brazil and elsewhere. Especially before the last decade. Scientific rigor and smarter evidence-based MMA training didn't really come into its own until very recently. "Training to take a punch" through chute box's infamously violent training regimens was a thing. And it's not entirely stupid on the part of Wanderlei if you don't have access to the cumulative science. You had the same focus as the NFL and others...it's the "wrong" shot or knockouts that caused it. Yes people knew you got punch drunk but plenty thought you could train your way into defense of it. And with that they took a shit load of damage training, didn't get knocked out in the fight, and then had the confirmation that their training "worked". Until CTE crept up later.

Bas can't even walk down his driveway. Gary Goodridge has CTE. Mark Coleman can barely walk after just training on his back porch with Randelman for a decade. These weren't all stupid people. The training was just in a world of, "go as hard as you can now so you'll be strong enough to not get knocked out or die in the ring".

Just look here:

New Study Finds Hits, Not Concussions, Cause CTE

Only recently with real evidence of any trauma being cumulative, not even stacking concussions or knockouts. These guys didn't have access to that knowledge and they trained with the facts they had available to try to avoid being punch drunk.

I wouldn't say the knowledge has made much difference. It's the money in the sport and the accompanying professionalization that comes with it. De la Hoya and Roy Jones weren't training like Chute Boxe or the Lion's Den or MFS back in the 90s and guys fighting in the Z leagues (or the undercard) today likely aren't quite as cautious as UFC fighters. Fighting as hard as you can as a training method usually comes from lack of resources. You can't afford the smart trainers around you, healthcare, or the facilities where you can do much more than spar. I think when we look at the guys from the old days and how messed up they are, that's a lot of what we're seeing. And realistically, even with all the advances and resources, due to the sport's brutality, we'll still see some wrecked lives. I'm worried about Max Holloway already and he's just a kid.

 

[Splinty]

I wouldn't say the knowledge has made much difference. It's the money in the sport and the accompanying professionalization that comes with it. De la Hoya and Roy Jones weren't training like Chute Boxe or the Lion's Den or MFS back in the 90s and guys fighting in the Z leagues (or the undercard) today likely aren't quite as cautious as UFC fighters. Fighting as hard as you can as a training method usually comes from lack of resources. You can't afford the smart trainers around you, healthcare, or the facilities where you can do much more than spar. I think when we look at the guys from the old days and how messed up they are, that's a lot of what we're seeing. And realistically, even with all the advances and resources, due to the sport's brutality, we'll still see some wrecked lives. I'm worried about Max Holloway already and he's just a kid.

That's what I meant by:

Scientific rigor and smarter evidence-based MMA training didn't really come into its own until very recently. And it's not entirely stupid on the part of Wanderlei if you don't have access to the cumulative science.

But you're right, that's from money and mainstreaming.





Now go ahead and explain this...

Spoiler

Check mate.

 

[Tuc Ouiner]

a lot of people in prisons and state hospitals are known to have suffered at least one severe traumatic brain injury. the brain is not designed to be shaken and bounced around in the skull, in fact it can be damaging. duh. that's why we cheer the warriors who risk stepping onto the battlefield. we cringe when we see those violent hits on the football field, but we can't look away. I remember watching the Julio Cesar Chavez fight with Meldrick Taylor. (I'm old) It was boxing at it's best and most violent and bloodthirsty. Taylor was never the same after that. In a way it kind of made me feel sick watching it (seen it several times) because you're watching somebody lose a part of themselves in the search for glory in this bloodlust gladiatorial combat. you can kind of understand why people want to ban it, but the people want blood so you gotta give it to em. The best fights are when they put everything on the line and that's what the axe murderer always did. sometimes though I'd rather watch billiards though. Doesn't make me feel as lecherous.