Sorry, I haven't gotten to reply to this because I'm very busy this past week, but just a couple quick things:
1) I'm not sure what the technical points of the lawsuit have to do with why I brought it up, which was to demonstrate the relative strength of the Gracie Academy TM vs other gyms and the resources, marketing and student base that accompany it.
2) As I said a few times, competition success of students has always been an important aspect of BJJ. This is especially true in Brazil before it came to the US and took on its current hyper commodified form. The mundials and the many events that preceded them were a way to validate what the family was doing internally. Carlson of course was really the architect of this ethic and elevated it instead of his father's weird cultlike mysticism or his uncle's catering to the Brazilian elite, including officials in the dictatorship. This also allowed the non-Gracie lineages of jiu jitsu and other grappling arts in Brazil to demonstrate what their instruction was doing under the open competition mindset the art was founded on. After all, the "Gracie challenge" was built on that public competition aspect and of course Maeda's own judo was a competitive art. To pretend the BJJ was ever only about self defense is a mistepresentation. That rebranding even in Brazil was largely only a response to popular sales tactics for martial arts and reactions to a lot of the violence in Brazilian society. When Carlson and also Rolls inaugurated competition, it was to demonstrate the nuance the sport had evolved and restore what had been Carlson's own claim to fame, namely as a competitor.
3) When you mention giving credit to Rener, it's again all for things having to do with his elite status, which he was literally born into. You talk about how much people are willing to pay him and how much people pay to see a particular fighter. You also mention high profile names who dropped in, which is obviously not the same as having been their primary instructor. Obviously Rener is a good enough instructor that he has great insights to offer people, but again, that doesn't make someone the best. It just makes them a useful coach. No other sport would call someone the best coach because a high level athlete dropped in with them for a camp or some side training. In MMA alone, the bar for what we'd consider the greatest striking coach remains incredibly high. We have to have a standard that we can apply relatively easily.
4) You mention the Gracies programs for the disabled, which I'll admit I wasn't aware of, but Liborio has obviously made this a core element of his practice owing to his own daughter's condition. As far as Bullyproof, you mention "civic responsibility," but by what credentials does the Gracie Academy teach such a thing? It's a fairly non-controversial idea in martial arts to include some areas of "self discipline" or "respect" or say it enhances self confidence, but most studies of martial arts programs show they actually have little to no discernible impact on increasing pro-social behaviors and can in some cases have the opposite effect. I worked in youth development for 16 years and can tell you that none of the empirically proven cornerstones of positive youth development are part of the Bullyproof curriculum. I had the curriculum and video resources at the time and even taught my own free BJJ classes to low income kids. I can tell you, the Bullyproof stuff is incredibly useful and it makes teaching kids so much easier because it's very systematized and easy go use. But many of its assumptions about even what "bullying" is are half baked and flimsy. It's the BJJ equivalent of DARE. I personally found the Play as the Way curriculum to be much more effective, though it came from a relatively unheralded instructor.
5) Regarding the idea that online blue belt failures "never happened" is ahistorical. I wish I could dredge up old forum posts of people who got these belts and posted their own experiences going go academies and getting embarrassed or other posts by people who ran into these people at tournaments or during gym interactions because they were plentiful enough. I'm sure there are a few in the Bullshido archives and I know there are some on Sherdog and the old Atama forum on mma.tv. Here's at least one such weird example on video.
View: https://youtu.be/72qnWgGzGJw
I don't mean to denigrate online learning. I went years personally in the 90s and early 2000s without instructors around me and watched a lot of videos to stay up on what was happening, which at least allowed me to not completely embarrass myself when showing up to gyms, but generally I sucked. I was fortunate to start with direct instruction, but the gap between me and people who were training routinely was quickly evident just in terms of timing and mechanics. There's nothing wrong with dragging instruction into the 21st century, but assessment was obviously controversial, which is why, following family pressure, they retreated from much of the practice at least somewhat.
6) Regarding your last point, I thought about including Marcelo but left him off because to me, most of his success as an instructor was only preparing people for competition and not necessarily having a well rounded program. That may have since changed, but if so I don't know it. Also, I personally know several of Marcelo's guys and most of them tended to be carbon copies of him unless they were poached from elsewhere (which happened a lot when he first arrived back in NYC from Florida). Ironically, despite being a snake, Griffiths developed a more well rounded type of academy, at least in the NY area. Pedro Sauer was of course voted best instructor in the US multiple times and I should've included him, but forgot. My list wasn't meant to be comprehensive, but was mostly people who came to mind who had developed most of the same components Rener had, albeit not with the same commercial success in some cases, but also seemed to still be capable of producing high level competitors. This is proof that it's possible to do so and more evidence that lacking that achievement is a fairly glaring gap in making a claim to being the greatest of all time.
Just as you feel in an awkward position defending Rener, I feel the same criticizing him. I think he's great generally, but I think it's important we demystify things in BJJ, especially as an art built on concrete results. We can't overlook the class dynamics of the art either. The Gracies engaged in a lot of myth peddling since they came to this country and most of it has since been corrected. Because of that mythology, it's easy to fall prey to the temptation to bestore lofty honorifics on Rorion's kids in particular, especially if you've encountered them personally and see how affable and almost magical they can come across. It's important not to drink the watermelon juice.
I appreciate you taking the time, it's good to talk to someone with a different perspective and the same background. And I appreciate you making the bullet points, so I'll follow form.
1) the lawsuit is wildly mis-represented in the popular mythos. Go read any Barra telling of that part of the history of BJJ...Carley is the White Knight who sued to stop Evil Rorion from using the legal system to hoard all the BJJ students for himself. The lawsuit was actually a frivolous money-grab by Carley. He had stolen the logo, Rorion demanded Carley respect the TM his father had given Rorion or pay to use it, so Carley sued because he thought he could bankrupt Rorion and get a piece of UFC. Rorion prevailed on everything in the lawsuit except the TM of "Gracie Jui-Jitsu" - which should have never been granted, or even applied for - and Carley had to pay Rorion $725k. And Carley appealed that verdict all the way to the 9th Circuit (lost on everything again).
FindLaw's searchable database of United States Ninth Circuit decisions since
caselaw.findlaw.com
But the Carlson lineage keeps posting BS narratives and revisionist history to try and make Carley less of an opportunistic asshole than Rorion (they're about equal). The brand isn't strong because Rorion used the law to squash competition, it's a valuable brand because it's a superior product for a large portion of the available consumers. Rorion didn't try to harm anyone's business, but he's not as good at PR as IBJJF.
2) Gracie University students have competition success. Lots of students that train with Rener/Ryron compete on the local and regional level, and they do quite well. And I think you hit the nail on the head as to why the Carlson lineage puts so much emphasis on "sport" - because Carlson was really good at it and could market himself as an authority. But historically, the Gracie Challenge was a marketing tool that hinged on the Gracie's ability to fight anyone, any time, with no rules and be victorious. That's why Rickson put down his cereal bowl and fought Duarte on the beach and why he got on his moped and rode down to Rorion's place to throw a beating on Yoji. It was never about sport, or crowds, or points, or belts and medals. It was about putting aside all the excuses and fighting like your life depended on it. Of course the cultural backlash against that "street tough" mentality and associated gang violence meant that there was an opening for a structured sport to emerge, and the sport is amazing. But it's not a sport first, it's a fight for survival.
3) I give credit to Rener (and Ryron) for being born in to elite status and yet being innovators and disruptors. If it was up to Rorion, each of his sons would have opened an affiliate Academy, and their sons would have opened affiliates, and so on. But they did something amazing. They took the teaching style they were taught, and figured out how to teach that instead. Then they figured out how they could use the reach of technology to deliver not only the instruction on how to learn BJJ, but instruction on how to teach BJJ. I've trained at a bunch of 10P schools, they're all different vibes. Same thing for IMPACT, Humaita, and Gracie Barra - although Barra has dramatically changed their model and they were becoming much more standardized when I stopped travelling a lot (2017-ish). No bad vibes, no bad people...but every class and instructor are different. Rener/Ryron have (IMAO) the best teaching method, and I'll back it up by saying that they did their research and spent many years aligning the way they teach with the prevailing knowledge in 'How to Teach'. But let's also acknowledge that Rener possesses the knowledge and competitive record to follow Carlson's well-worn path just like all the people you hold up as greater.
4) Rener and Ryron don't have any disabled children. Isn't it more self-less and show more humanity to serve a need that doesn't impact you directly? I hope you get I'm not casting shade at Lobrio, but the program that Rener/Ryron have built for kids is unparalleled. The trophy case at their school doesn't have medals, it has report cards. letters from teachers. civic commendations. things like that. They could have easily applied their teaching to advanced butterfly sweeps for 8 yos, but instead the kids in their program spend time outside class becoming better citizens - not better guard passers. The typical martial arts program works from the premise that by learning the martial art you learn humility, selflessness, empathy, etc. The Bullyproof program takes the opposite tack - if they spend the time teaching Responsibility, Health, Respect, Citizenship, Manners, and Caring the kid will get good enough at submission wrestling just by showing up and doing the drills. That's why Rener has the greatest kids program.
5) you're confusing volume for relevance. I'm not going to waste effort debating what "someone on the internet said". People say all kinds of true and untrue things that serve their objectives. And I personally had people talk shit about my BJJ, but only when they had already talked shit about my BJJ before they met me. No one who's just rolled with me ever said anything beyond my coach was a sandbagging me.
I don't know the guy who posted. I know guys like Kris Ratte or Jeff Greekas. Those guys are online-only students who learned the way I did with my friends - by watching the videos and drilling the techniques. So here's some videos of people who I know for a fact only learned through the online curriculum and doing some open mats at local schools.
online-only student who went up a weight class at a regional NAGA, took silver because he didn't know to fight the half-ass hip bump at the end.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5OyeXCwfZs
These two guys are both online-only students, they went down an age bracket and closed out the division. It's not fantastic, but it's blue belt level BJJ.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSQXBmzS1Yk
I've personally trained all over the world, and I've never felt out of my league. But the notion that there was some groundswell of dissatisfied online students, and that's what drove change is ridiculous. Here's the 'news' from that time:
In a surprising new video, released on the Gracie Breakdown YouTube chanel, four of jiu-jitsu’s most influential figures — Rickson Gracie, Ryron Gracie, Rener Gracie, and Pedro Sauer — discuss the current state of the art and what they are doing to prevent it from “losing its identity.” Rickson...
www.bjjee.com
What happened was that GU did an audit of some very prolific instructors and their affiliates, and found that a whole shitload of them were teaching Combative and telling their students to sign up for GU as individuals, thereby reaping the benefits of the instruction without having to pay GU affiliate fees or go through the process of getting certified in Rener/Ryron's teaching methods. Some of those affiliate owners were the same ones saying that BJJ couldn't be taught online. Awkward, to say the least.So they approached those affiliate owners with the situation, and they found resolution. The only change to the GU program was the condition that blue belts be awarded only after a minimum learning time (which was already in effect but not in writing) and after sparring with an instructor. That's it. That's the only thing that changed - go spar with an instructor for 6 minutes and then you can have your blue belt. But you'll notice that right about that time is when GB started their GB-Online in earnest.
6) I often say that they're might be someone in BJJ who's as good of a person as Marcelo or Pedro, but there can't possibly be anyone better.
And as much as Rorion tries to push a narrative, he's nowhere as good at it as Carlson. ALL the Gracies have been involved in A LOT of myth-peddling, that is for certain. But I think you mis-attribute Rener's success to his birthright when the reality is that he's bucked the path set forth by his birthright at every turn, and found success because he's created a superior product with superior instruction for a much larger portion of the population. The business model that ATOS and TLI follow is known. You burn through a lot of students getting that core competition team. The purpose of the competition school is to serve the school and generate revenue for the owner. Any benefit to the community is ancillary. But the schools that Rener has out there aren't built around competition success, they're built around community integration and sustaining the business as critical to the community. Affiliate owners from Checkmat aren't having that conversation Leo and Rico, but all CTC owners are having it with Rener and Ryron. I think Rener has more than enough competitive championships for himself and his students to show that he can follow that model, a model built on the name-recognition of the champion. If we acknowledge Rener's unique name-appeal and his obvious skill at competing and teaching, why should we think that it's anything more than a difference in business model? And I want to point out one more time that you included an admitted attempted-rapist and a guy who fixed a match at ADCC (to fuck Marcelo) as "greatest" instructors based simply on the competitive record of their team. That's a big reason why I think competitive record means very little for the greatness of the instructor.
FWIW - I don't think many folks who've been around BJJ would confuse me someone who drinks the watermelon juice. I find that aspect of their business, the "veneration of the master", as the repugnant part. But everybody in every martial art does it...I'm just not the target demographic.