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I look forward to this, I just read up (slightly) on that supersonic bomber the Russians have.
Why would we not be designing aircraft capable of intercepting current Russian tech?
Is weird.
Why would we not be designing aircraft capable of intercepting current Russian tech?
Is weird.
Are you talking about the TU-160? Because while it's max speed is Mach 2, it's cruise is less than Mach 1, which would mean it would be caught eventually.
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That's what I though too... waiting for sparkuri to post his reasonings...
This is also assuming you are behind and chasing it, which wouldn't be ideal or likely. A more likely scenario would be that you detect it incoming and intercept the bomber coming towards you.
Yep. Probably the only thing I agree with Trudeau.
18! I remember when they bought the first f18s in the 80s. Wasn't it a total order of like what 60 or 100 planes or something. Correct me if I'm wrong... But yeah talk about reduction...
OK, let's establish a few things.
First this IS window dressing to line pockets, it is NOT about Canada's security.
How many Tupolev TU-22 or 160's have been intercepted by F-22's?
There you go.
Russia has been running around the clock missions with Tupolev BEARS across the west coast and arctic for 3 years.
They are intercepted by slow, aging but capable aircraft for that mission.
The Backbone of North American interception will be led by upgraded F-15's for the next 20 years.
F-35's, a joke.
F-18's, too slow.
F-22's are the only viable option, and even they get ran around in circles by F-15's AND Tupolev's upgraded fleet.
Why does this matter?
Because in a hypothetical where detection has missed pockets, ONLY the F-15 can scramble in "enough" time.
Eurofighters, Raphaels and Gripens are, excuse me, WERE created to mass flood a European UNION that will not crumble.
France wasn't feeling the security, so they broke off from the Typhoon project to isolate their tech 30 years ago, and that project culminated in the Raphael.
The F-22, which was created to replace aging F-15's, is worthless in the stealth aspect in an interceptory role.
Russian detection is loooong percieved to be ahead of the rest of the world.
I know right? Who would've thought?!
Remember Bosnia?
In later discussions seldom known to the public, it was revealed the NATO reluctant to fly F-117 sorties because of AGED Russian detection making us.
Lo and behold, they are dancing on a downed F-117, while the U.S. laughs it off as, "Oh, that's just 4th gen stuff, we're not worried about that".
But that was the best we had at the time in service for short range sorties. The whole POINT was that it was invisible.
It wasn't invisible in 1980 when the program began.
The point is, the U.S. military's creation of stealth aircraft in world theater was to do exactly what it is doing now, take out the middle east.
They are NOT capable of defeating Russian detection, either on their borders or in the arctic, whether land based or in the air.
In 1990 the contract between the Northrup/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 and Lockheed/General Dynamics(Boeing) YF-22 was publicly fought to create fear in the middle east for European/Western dominance.
virtually NOTHING was top secret.
They were not created to counter Soviet/post cold war threats, though publicly that's how they were sold to congress.
The YF-23 was better than the YF-22 in
-Stealth
-Top speed
-Armament
Yet the F-22 was chosen the winner.
Why?
Go take a look at the J-20.
Hmmm.....
Bottom line is, Canada will never take the role of air superiority on it's(arcti) borders further than the U.S., because it doesn't know who has the better capability in a world war scenario. It wants to be protected both a pre- and post world war situation. In other words, excused if the Russians win.
Between HAARP, SURA, ICBM's, sea-dwelling tactical nukes and the countless secret programs all three superpowers maintain, air superiority is not a major concern.
If it were, again, the 5 aircraft being discussed would be laughed off.
T-50's more likely, and even then.....
I have to go now, but it's my strong OPINION that this is just another military contract masqueraded as legitimate.
First this IS window dressing to line pockets, it is NOT about Canada's security.
How many Tupolev TU-22 or 160's have been intercepted by F-22's?
There you go.
Russia has been running around the clock missions with Tupolev BEARS across the west coast and arctic for 3 years.
They are intercepted by slow, aging but capable aircraft for that mission.
The Backbone of North American interception will be led by upgraded F-15's for the next 20 years.
F-35's, a joke.
F-18's, too slow.
F-22's are the only viable option, and even they get ran around in circles by F-15's AND Tupolev's upgraded fleet.
Why does this matter?
Because in a hypothetical where detection has missed pockets, ONLY the F-15 can scramble in "enough" time.
Eurofighters, Raphaels and Gripens are, excuse me, WERE created to mass flood a European UNION that will not crumble.
France wasn't feeling the security, so they broke off from the Typhoon project to isolate their tech 30 years ago, and that project culminated in the Raphael.
The F-22, which was created to replace aging F-15's, is worthless in the stealth aspect in an interceptory role.
Russian detection is loooong percieved to be ahead of the rest of the world.
I know right? Who would've thought?!
Remember Bosnia?
In later discussions seldom known to the public, it was revealed the NATO reluctant to fly F-117 sorties because of AGED Russian detection making us.
Lo and behold, they are dancing on a downed F-117, while the U.S. laughs it off as, "Oh, that's just 4th gen stuff, we're not worried about that".
But that was the best we had at the time in service for short range sorties. The whole POINT was that it was invisible.
It wasn't invisible in 1980 when the program began.
The point is, the U.S. military's creation of stealth aircraft in world theater was to do exactly what it is doing now, take out the middle east.
They are NOT capable of defeating Russian detection, either on their borders or in the arctic, whether land based or in the air.
In 1990 the contract between the Northrup/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 and Lockheed/General Dynamics(Boeing) YF-22 was publicly fought to create fear in the middle east for European/Western dominance.
virtually NOTHING was top secret.
They were not created to counter Soviet/post cold war threats, though publicly that's how they were sold to congress.
The YF-23 was better than the YF-22 in
-Stealth
-Top speed
-Armament
Yet the F-22 was chosen the winner.
Why?
Go take a look at the J-20.
Hmmm.....
Bottom line is, Canada will never take the role of air superiority on it's(arcti) borders further than the U.S., because it doesn't know who has the better capability in a world war scenario. It wants to be protected both a pre- and post world war situation. In other words, excused if the Russians win.
Between HAARP, SURA, ICBM's, sea-dwelling tactical nukes and the countless secret programs all three superpowers maintain, air superiority is not a major concern.
If it were, again, the 5 aircraft being discussed would be laughed off.
T-50's more likely, and even then.....
I have to go now, but it's my strong OPINION that this is just another military contract masqueraded as legitimate.
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Very. Informative. All of you guys.
I'm gonna pick my cousins brain about this. He got his engineering degree through the army and if I recall correctly got to work on the maintenance of the cf-18s. He's probably got a few things to say or two hopefully.
I fear if I invite him to the forum he will find out about my fapout stuff
LOL
I'm gonna pick my cousins brain about this. He got his engineering degree through the army and if I recall correctly got to work on the maintenance of the cf-18s. He's probably got a few things to say or two hopefully.
I fear if I invite him to the forum he will find out about my fapout stuff
LOL
Interesting post.
I remember clearly when the Serbs had shut down that f1117. And conveniently shuttled the wreck to the Russians.
I'm curious but what makes you think the Russians detection system is the best?
Decades of military airpower/intelligence/study being my lifes love have brought me to this.Interesting post.
I remember clearly when the Serbs had shut down that f1117. And conveniently shuttled the wreck to the Russians.
I'm curious but what makes you think the Russians detection system is the best?
I could not possibly give you a source.
30 years ago I memorized the World Encyclopedia on military aircraft and it went from there.
I couldn't tell you much about warships or tanks that most don't know, but airpower, missiles, nukes, detection history, helicopters have been my area of interest, so...
There was an investigative show about a Russian plane flying over the Atlantic and a man on a boat identifying it at 50,000 feet, something a handful of people in the world could do, and he by happenstance was there to report it to the U.S.. Total coincidence.
That's me.
I can see something fly from miles away and identify the difference between a Saab-37, IAI KFIR, Eagle with forward canards, etc.
After discovety of the U-2 and TR-1, then the AA-12(SR-71), the Soviets made detection the highest priority.
Ah, knowing formers helps too ;-)
Are we twins?.. LOL
30 years ago I too had a subscription to a world military encyclopedia from Europe. It was just awesome from all sorts of point of view. Historical and... Guns, aircrafts, ships tanks galore... from ancient to modern you name it.
I lost most of those mags and I sooo regret it.
I'm the geek who looks at photos from conflicts in the papers and starts analyzing their gear. Lol
I look at parades and tell my workmates about the guns on display. Etc.
and like I mentioned I got family in the army.
So back to Russian detection. Yes I do recall the U2 flight and Gary powers. The sr-71.
I do recall that back in the 60s up to the 80s roughly they had quite an effective mobile multilayered anti aircraft system that combined missiles for mid to high altitudes and those 4 guns for low flying aircrafts. The gear they provided the Egyptians with gave the Israelis some serious fits but the Israelis then found some tactic with radar homing missiles. I do recall thinking that it was not necessarily a question of technology more than a question of tactics. Th Egyptians had become predictable and the Israelis banked on that (or so I think). Fast forward mid late 90s, Soviet Union collapsed, then 98, the Serbians are getting their shit bombed left and right but in midst of all this they shot down an f117? I've always been intrigued about the how? Pilot fuckup? Or the Russians provided some knowledge to the Serbians? Missile battery conveniently hiding behind a hill instead of being a sitting duck in the open desert like we had seen during desert storm? Or just plain luck?
Now Would you care to show us how you perceive the new system s-3000 and the likes as the best so far? I've been out of the loop.
Cheers
"Now Would you care to show us how you perceive the new system s-3000 and the likes as the best so far? I've been out of the loop."
I'm right there with ya. Kids and life do that. Now I have to be an expert at that, my job, etc.
I've heard alotta chatter about the S-3-400 mds's, but only watched video's.
I'll look into that, but you know with Syria and Iran owning them, it's certainly been "effective without track record".
Also it's been interesting watching the chess game in Syria/Ukraine.
Putin knows they have the air, what's the west warhawks next move?
They thought Russia couldn't operate on different fronts logistically, so after Putin gets nobel nominated for his open letter to U.S. citizens, the CIA starts the Ukraine jazz, waits a year, then back to Syria.
Lol.
*Brofist*
I'm right there with ya. Kids and life do that. Now I have to be an expert at that, my job, etc.
I've heard alotta chatter about the S-3-400 mds's, but only watched video's.
I'll look into that, but you know with Syria and Iran owning them, it's certainly been "effective without track record".
Also it's been interesting watching the chess game in Syria/Ukraine.
Putin knows they have the air, what's the west warhawks next move?
They thought Russia couldn't operate on different fronts logistically, so after Putin gets nobel nominated for his open letter to U.S. citizens, the CIA starts the Ukraine jazz, waits a year, then back to Syria.
Lol.
*Brofist*
"
On Tuesday November 3rd, U.S. Defense Department spokesperson Laura Seal told The Daily Beast that twelve F-15C air-to-air combat planes are being sent to the Incirlik Turkey Air Base for deployment in Syria against Russia’s Su-30 air-to-air combat planes. Neither the F-15C nor the Su-30 can destroy ground-targets, only air-targets — enemy planes."
M
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Guest
Good post.
Out of the ones that are being considered what do you think? (Just on their own merits)
Canada is only going to field one type of jet fighter, the RCAF says it cannot justify having two types with the number of Jets (maintenance, parts, training blah blah) and they probably won't get F15s. It would be sweet if they did though.
Good post.
Out of the ones that are being considered what do you think? (Just on their own merits)
Canada is only going to field one type of jet fighter, the RCAF says it cannot justify having two types with the number of Jets (maintenance, parts, training blah blah) and they probably won't get F15s. It would be sweet if they did though.
Really I have no idea.
If the F-35 was in full swing I'd say F-18's for easy co-op and integration/logistics.
But I see this on the surface as between Euro(politics) and the Raphale, the Raphale being a great jet, and I believe the French are a stronger, secretive, intelligent, and much like the British hold colonialism as essential.
And I have respect for them most Americans don't seem to.
I'd love to see Saab get the contract, I've always loved there AIRCRAFT products going back to the Draken, and tend to believe they are as "arctic ready" as anyone.
And it'd be like having a Detomaso Pantera in your neighbors garage.
If I took it all at face value, probably the Raphale.
But you can't underestimate the U.S. thirst for power/control, and I can see them shoving more F-18's down Canada's throat.
Honestly as an enthusiast I'd just live to see any of the Euro-jets in my backyard
Clear as mud, I know.
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This might be of some interest.
Rafale Fighters Make Inroads Against U.S. Makers
Dassault wagers prospective Rafale exports will justify tripling supplier output
With India likely to order three dozenRafale combat jets in the coming months, and another export contract for the French fighter expected next year,Dassault Aviation has asked its supplier base to increase production based on an anticipated tripling of output by late 2018.
The move—a response to sudden interest in the Rafale outside of France—is somewhat of a gamble for Dassault.
New Delhi, which in March opted out of a 126-aircraft purchase from the French company in favor of a government-to-government sale of just 36 Rafales, has not yet signed. Qatar, which in May agreed to buy 24 Rafales for €6.3 billion ($6.8 billion), is late in making a down payment; and Egypt, whose €5.2-billion agreement includes 24 Rafales and a French frigate, is drawing its first six aircraft straight from Dassault’s Merignac production line, leaving a gap in planned inventory for the French armed forces that the company will have to make up.
“It is a measured risk. A success-oriented risk. And if we did not take this risk we would be obligated to delay deliveries,” says Dassault Aviation Chairman and CEO Eric Trappier.
“We had to do this,” he says, even if it ultimately means paying subcontractors for hardware Dassault does not need. “If it happens we don’t sign any of the contracts, we’ll put the brakes on the production rhythm.”
Dassault Aviation credits top officials in the French government with helping facilitate the sale of 24 Rafale combat jets to Cairo. Credit: Dassault Aviation/Anthony Pecchi
Trappier announced the uptick in Rafale production in July, shortly after the deal with Qatar was agreed to, and India gave a verbal commitment for the 36-Rafale purchase.
Rafale Fighters Make Inroads Against U.S. Makers
Dassault wagers prospective Rafale exports will justify tripling supplier output
With India likely to order three dozenRafale combat jets in the coming months, and another export contract for the French fighter expected next year,Dassault Aviation has asked its supplier base to increase production based on an anticipated tripling of output by late 2018.
The move—a response to sudden interest in the Rafale outside of France—is somewhat of a gamble for Dassault.
New Delhi, which in March opted out of a 126-aircraft purchase from the French company in favor of a government-to-government sale of just 36 Rafales, has not yet signed. Qatar, which in May agreed to buy 24 Rafales for €6.3 billion ($6.8 billion), is late in making a down payment; and Egypt, whose €5.2-billion agreement includes 24 Rafales and a French frigate, is drawing its first six aircraft straight from Dassault’s Merignac production line, leaving a gap in planned inventory for the French armed forces that the company will have to make up.
“It is a measured risk. A success-oriented risk. And if we did not take this risk we would be obligated to delay deliveries,” says Dassault Aviation Chairman and CEO Eric Trappier.
“We had to do this,” he says, even if it ultimately means paying subcontractors for hardware Dassault does not need. “If it happens we don’t sign any of the contracts, we’ll put the brakes on the production rhythm.”
Dassault Aviation credits top officials in the French government with helping facilitate the sale of 24 Rafale combat jets to Cairo. Credit: Dassault Aviation/Anthony Pecchi
Trappier announced the uptick in Rafale production in July, shortly after the deal with Qatar was agreed to, and India gave a verbal commitment for the 36-Rafale purchase.
cont'd.
“This obviously presumes we have adjusted subcontracting production to meet that objective,” Trappier says. “We brought together the entire industrial production chain to explain to them our proposed schedule. And they’ve agreed to do what’s necessary.”
In the meantime, he says, negotiations in India have been tough, though he is optimistic that they will be completed by the end of this year. He says discussions surrounding industrial offsets are complex and ongoing.
“There will obviously be offsets; that has not escaped our attention,” he says, adding that Dassault could better support the nation’s “Make in India” strategy if New Delhi would buy more than 36 jets. “The more Rafales ordered, the more that can be done in-country. Very probably there will be more planes coming behind the 36-plane order, and I hope they will be Rafales.”
Beyond India, Trappier says he anticipates a fourth Rafale contract to be signed next year. Prospects include the United Arab Emirates (UAE), which is flying Dassault-built Mirage combat jets in support of operations against Yemen.
“We’ve improved our support and spare-parts relationship with their local industry, on behalf of local autonomy for that nation” Trappier says of the UAE. “For countries that are already using the Mirage, we have hopes of selling the Rafale, but I can’t tell you exactly where we are, or whether we’ll sign anything in three weeks or in three months.”
Trappier is also eyeing Canada, whose new prime minister, Justin Trudeau, has vowed to scrap the nation’s commitment to the U.S.-built F-35. Trappier said he recently wrote to Trudeau, congratulating him on his win and offering the Rafale in lieu of the Lockheed Martin fighter, should the new leader follow through on his campaign promise.
Belgium, which recently issued a request for information related to replacing its F-16fighters, is another possibility. Trappier says Switzerland is also a prospect, albeit a long-term one. Although Berne is not currently searching for a new fighter, the fact that the Swiss will need to replace both their F-5 Tiger and F/A-18 Hornet fleets is not lost on Dassault, which is preparing for a possible competition there.
“They are faced with a double-renewal requirement, and they will probably proceed with a single order for the two replacement programs,” Trappier says. “Rafale is perfectly adapted to replace the totality of these planes and to all the missions that country is currently performing.”
Trappier says longer-term export prospects for the Rafale are looking up in places where France is making geo-political headway against competitors, most notably U.S. companies.
“There are situations where we can go into a country and make our best offer but have zero chances of winning,” he says, citing the Rafale’s loss to the F-35 in South Korea last year. “But the world is changing, and now the U.S. appears to be present a little differently around the world, which gives us more confidence to sell in environments we were not able to before. And this has been exploited to the max by French political authorities.”
Having at least two firm export deals under his belt has also eased Trappier’s indigestion when pitching the Rafale to potential buyers.
“You can imagine that until recently I had recurring stomachaches,” he quips.
“This obviously presumes we have adjusted subcontracting production to meet that objective,” Trappier says. “We brought together the entire industrial production chain to explain to them our proposed schedule. And they’ve agreed to do what’s necessary.”
In the meantime, he says, negotiations in India have been tough, though he is optimistic that they will be completed by the end of this year. He says discussions surrounding industrial offsets are complex and ongoing.
“There will obviously be offsets; that has not escaped our attention,” he says, adding that Dassault could better support the nation’s “Make in India” strategy if New Delhi would buy more than 36 jets. “The more Rafales ordered, the more that can be done in-country. Very probably there will be more planes coming behind the 36-plane order, and I hope they will be Rafales.”
Beyond India, Trappier says he anticipates a fourth Rafale contract to be signed next year. Prospects include the United Arab Emirates (UAE), which is flying Dassault-built Mirage combat jets in support of operations against Yemen.
“We’ve improved our support and spare-parts relationship with their local industry, on behalf of local autonomy for that nation” Trappier says of the UAE. “For countries that are already using the Mirage, we have hopes of selling the Rafale, but I can’t tell you exactly where we are, or whether we’ll sign anything in three weeks or in three months.”
Trappier is also eyeing Canada, whose new prime minister, Justin Trudeau, has vowed to scrap the nation’s commitment to the U.S.-built F-35. Trappier said he recently wrote to Trudeau, congratulating him on his win and offering the Rafale in lieu of the Lockheed Martin fighter, should the new leader follow through on his campaign promise.
Belgium, which recently issued a request for information related to replacing its F-16fighters, is another possibility. Trappier says Switzerland is also a prospect, albeit a long-term one. Although Berne is not currently searching for a new fighter, the fact that the Swiss will need to replace both their F-5 Tiger and F/A-18 Hornet fleets is not lost on Dassault, which is preparing for a possible competition there.
“They are faced with a double-renewal requirement, and they will probably proceed with a single order for the two replacement programs,” Trappier says. “Rafale is perfectly adapted to replace the totality of these planes and to all the missions that country is currently performing.”
Trappier says longer-term export prospects for the Rafale are looking up in places where France is making geo-political headway against competitors, most notably U.S. companies.
“There are situations where we can go into a country and make our best offer but have zero chances of winning,” he says, citing the Rafale’s loss to the F-35 in South Korea last year. “But the world is changing, and now the U.S. appears to be present a little differently around the world, which gives us more confidence to sell in environments we were not able to before. And this has been exploited to the max by French political authorities.”
Having at least two firm export deals under his belt has also eased Trappier’s indigestion when pitching the Rafale to potential buyers.
“You can imagine that until recently I had recurring stomachaches,” he quips.
M
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Guest
So... bring back the Avro Arrow?Really I have no idea.
If the F-35 was in full swing I'd say F-18's for easy co-op and integration/logistics.
But I see this on the surface as between Euro(politics) and the Raphale, the Raphale being a great jet, and I believe the French are a stronger, secretive, intelligent, and much like the British hold colonialism as essential.
And I have respect for them most Americans don't seem to.
I'd love to see Saab get the contract, I've always loved there AIRCRAFT products going back to the Draken, and tend to believe they are as "arctic ready" as anyone.
And it'd be like having a Detomaso Pantera in your neighbors garage.
If I took it all at face value, probably the Raphale.
But you can't underestimate the U.S. thirst for power/control, and I can see them shoving more F-18's down Canada's throat.
Honestly as an enthusiast I'd just live to see any of the Euro-jets in my backyard
Clear as mud, I know.
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