General Jesus Christ grave is in India
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You bastard, I just realized Peter, Paul, and Mary probably weren't their real names.
My childhood has been officially destroyed
View: https://youtu.be/z15pxWUXvLY?si=R67aFAY4EOnZMZl3
I think you're playing semantics. You're saying we know Paul wrote the epistles but we don't know if he actually wrote what we have now?
Then you go on to argue that Paul had a disagreement with Peter but since, as I understand your point, nothing written can be verified as actual then you have no idea if they fought or not. Unless of course you're so biased that you only beleive that which could be construed as negative. Which in reality would be proof to the contrary of your tainted argument as you would think of there was a conspiracy to whitewash texts, the negativity or controversy would be removed.
He's trying to explain the disagreement about circumcision which led to the apostolic council mentioned in Acts.
It was the one thing which was providential as it decided how doctrinal disputes would be handled in the church as you see with the ecumenical councils.
Other than that I have no idea where any reputable theological or church fathers addressed a disagreement between peter and paul.
Can you start a different thread on that?
We can have a specified threads for each thing.
Not trying to be rude here but it's the holidays & I'm strapped for time.
And everything Bible requires a LOT of study & references & citations, and most of it requires context, other sources sources, and on & on, and I'm happy to walk it through & continue education.
If it were as easy as "Paul says x but Peter says y", & in the NT canon solely, xtianity wouldn't be as successful as it's been.
And this is more Jesus' travels from 12-30 I think.
Apocalypse of Peter is ine source for others.
You're kind of all over the place. You're questioning canonical books as proper source then citing non canonical sources.
Lol, no.
I'm not asserting either as more legitimate than the other.
I'm simply saying information is available.
I leave it to experts in that arena.
To me, scrolls are scrolls.
The fact that disagreements between 104 gospels are a-plenty & taking a macroview of world power ebb & flow over millenia tells me on a more probable-than-not basis all I need.
I put no stamp on propriety or legitimacy on a hill to die on.
This is weird, I alluded to none of that.
Like I said, separate thread, we walk it through.
Guys like Bart Ehrman and Robert Cargill dedicate their lives to such things.
I just know what's clearly wrong, with no sway.
For the record you can find in search my history on Christianity being quite different 3 years ago than today.
I've walked the walk for nearly 50 years.
There is no more pride-driven point of view.
Truth above all is my stance.
I'd much rather believe God has the same love for me, and pardon, as I do for my children.
Actions testify to the truth.
I've walked the walk for nearly 50 years.
There is no more pride-driven point of view.
Truth above all is my stance.
I'd much rather believe God has the same love for me, and pardon, as I do for my children.
Actions testify to the truth.
There is one area in which Paul rebuked Peter for his actions and that was that Peter had begun to treat the non Jewish Christians differently. I'm on my phone and I could type more about that specifically but in essence that is what they disagreed about later on my computer.
Paul was right. Peter was wrong, which he accepted. Life went on and Peter later died for what he believed and saw and so did Paul.
The fact that the leader of the first church was corrected by a fellow follower, one who not only had never met Jesus pre crucifixion but had also hunted Christians , and that this was included in the Bible only gives more credibility to the faith and the Bible itself. The truth was told regardless of how it might make people look. An orderly account of what was seen and heard.
Paul was right. Peter was wrong, which he accepted. Life went on and Peter later died for what he believed and saw and so did Paul.
The fact that the leader of the first church was corrected by a fellow follower, one who not only had never met Jesus pre crucifixion but had also hunted Christians , and that this was included in the Bible only gives more credibility to the faith and the Bible itself. The truth was told regardless of how it might make people look. An orderly account of what was seen and heard.
I enjoy these conversations, fellas.
And I apologize for my early morning grouchy comment.
I get touchy about the judgment of the true believer... it "feels" like a roadblock, a hard line that the faithful maintain, a protective position that reason and intellectual curiosity cannot pass.
I don't mean that as an insult to the faithful, just an observation from an outsider that simply doesn't believe the story.
I honestly believe that Jesus lived and walked the earth. I honestly believe that he had an important message and changed the world forever with his iconoclastic views.
And I don't understand why that basic truth isn't enough. I don't understand why I'm on the outside when I truly believe and live the message, but just can't go along with the rest of the "story".
Truth be told, I wish I could.
But I don't. And I don't think I ever will.
I get immaturely angry when a believer tells me I'm almost there and it's only my "fear" of so called faith that holds me back, my inability to kneel to a higher power.
I deeply doubt that the guy we call Jesus wanted me to kneel to anyone. In fact, I think his entire point was not to kneel to a superior force, but to only (and skeptically) kneel to things that actually made sense. By kneel I believe he meant to be open, as opposed instinctively oppositional and defiant to anything new or different. I don't believe the young man that flipped tables and consorted with whores and heretics meant for people thousands of years later to worship golden statues of him or kill in his name.
In fact, I think he'd be horrified by it. I don't think that young man could even conceptualize what has been done "in his name" over the centuries, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't like it.
I have a different appreciation/interpretation/application of what I believe his message was than the every Sunday types and the biblical scholars want me to have.
I have lived his basic precepts for most of my life, and dedicated my entire working life to making the world slightly better than I found it in my short time here. I don't lie, I don't steal, I'm not ruled by my desires.
So I ask the true delivers the same question I have been asking for over half my life.. why isn't that enough and what would the actual Jesus say about it? How would he judge me as a man that walked the walk but refused to talk the talk?
Do I go straight to your hell because I don't believe in the resurrection?
Do I get to hang out in purgatory?
30 years of helping the poor, sick, and hapless. Doing the nuts and bolts gross shit most people won't do. Contorting with whores and heretics and telling them they don't have to live their lives this way, telling them that everything they need is already inside of them and that the only thing holding them back is fear of letting go of what got them where they are.
Would Jesus slam the gates shut on a guy like me?
If so, he's nobody worth following, imo.
And I apologize for my early morning grouchy comment.
I get touchy about the judgment of the true believer... it "feels" like a roadblock, a hard line that the faithful maintain, a protective position that reason and intellectual curiosity cannot pass.
I don't mean that as an insult to the faithful, just an observation from an outsider that simply doesn't believe the story.
I honestly believe that Jesus lived and walked the earth. I honestly believe that he had an important message and changed the world forever with his iconoclastic views.
And I don't understand why that basic truth isn't enough. I don't understand why I'm on the outside when I truly believe and live the message, but just can't go along with the rest of the "story".
Truth be told, I wish I could.
But I don't. And I don't think I ever will.
I get immaturely angry when a believer tells me I'm almost there and it's only my "fear" of so called faith that holds me back, my inability to kneel to a higher power.
I deeply doubt that the guy we call Jesus wanted me to kneel to anyone. In fact, I think his entire point was not to kneel to a superior force, but to only (and skeptically) kneel to things that actually made sense. By kneel I believe he meant to be open, as opposed instinctively oppositional and defiant to anything new or different. I don't believe the young man that flipped tables and consorted with whores and heretics meant for people thousands of years later to worship golden statues of him or kill in his name.
In fact, I think he'd be horrified by it. I don't think that young man could even conceptualize what has been done "in his name" over the centuries, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't like it.
I have a different appreciation/interpretation/application of what I believe his message was than the every Sunday types and the biblical scholars want me to have.
I have lived his basic precepts for most of my life, and dedicated my entire working life to making the world slightly better than I found it in my short time here. I don't lie, I don't steal, I'm not ruled by my desires.
So I ask the true delivers the same question I have been asking for over half my life.. why isn't that enough and what would the actual Jesus say about it? How would he judge me as a man that walked the walk but refused to talk the talk?
Do I go straight to your hell because I don't believe in the resurrection?
Do I get to hang out in purgatory?
30 years of helping the poor, sick, and hapless. Doing the nuts and bolts gross shit most people won't do. Contorting with whores and heretics and telling them they don't have to live their lives this way, telling them that everything they need is already inside of them and that the only thing holding them back is fear of letting go of what got them where they are.
Would Jesus slam the gates shut on a guy like me?
If so, he's nobody worth following, imo.
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Nobody here knows for sure where they will end up. I do beleive strongly that you'll have your chance to explain and make your choice as will I. I've devoted a tremendous amount of time and effort to study but a child with down syndrome is more prepared for the after life than I am. Let's pray we get through it.
If an alien species came to the planet tomorrow, proclaimed they interceded in life on earth, and asked you to kneel, would you? Belief is deeply connected to our autonomic survival mechanisms. I've learned to not fight it anymore and accept that I am the lesser power. In that, I've found my faith again, and see the world through a different lens.
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The problem is that I absolutely wouldn't kneel, I'd rather die. Not fighting something stronger seems insanely foreign to me. I will not yield.
I don't say that to sound the way it sounds, I just know who I actually am.
I'm incapable of not fighting it.
The few things that actually make sense to me would lose all meaning.
This was all preceded by a hard moment of ego death which changed everything for me. What you're describing, that level of control, almost broke me mentally. Good luck fighting the aliens, bro. I'm gonna kneel. lol
The truth exists in spite of humanity's incessant need to understand it. That's the power you're submitting to.
I'll die on my feet.
I lived the way I lived and I'll die the same way.
I don't think that theres anything after, I think we just compost and feed the next thing.
But if there is a next, and there's a moment of judgment, I like my chances. I know who I am, what I've done, and what I've sacrificed to be an honorable man. I'll look anyone in the eyes and say it.
If there is an ever watching god I don't really think I'd have to.
God would know how I've carried myself.
I see the beauty and truth of that statement but I think I draw a different conclusion from the same data set.
That conclusion is predicated upon my disdain for anyone in power telling me that the only route to truth/salvation lies through "them". Being told I'm only burdened by this earthly coil to prove through service that I am worthy of something better after my life of servitude.
I chose to serve my fellow man, in an effort to make a better tomorrow for those that come after.. that service sets not only me and my fragile ego free, it hopefully establishes a new baseline for the next ones. A better starting point, so they can service the next thing that I will never see or know about. To me that's faith, that's something that I'll never know for sure but would like to believe is true.
Maybe I'm too simple, or too complicated and damaged, to see much past that. But to me that's enough and more than what I see most believers actually doing.
Again, not necessarily a judgement, just an observation.
Good works should stand on their own and be judged by quantifiable outcome. What I generally see from believers is a score keeping situation. How many good works can you put on your resume, how many have you convinced to join the flock. How does this guys score measure against another guys score.
Does that make one closer to God than another? Does the motivation to do it matter more than actually doing it?
Does something unseen and unspoken about not count?
Does a good work not matter if "the lord" isn't imposed upon it?
Be a good person, give if you have it, accept if you actually need it, have pride in both of these actions.
I don't understand why that isn't enough for some folks.
Its good enough for me, and it's how I judge my fellow man.
Right vs Wrong is a construct that we created in an attempt to regulate each other. I'm OK with it and I don't think creating a mythology around it helps clear anything up.
Just like "no knees to a grounded opponent" sounds good in theory, it only creates a place to hide from a certain reality and in no way prepares you for a real fight.
When you're under a bridge helping someone look for thier strung out teenage child in homeless camps not knowing if thier dead or alive, or watching an innocent 4 year old cling to life through chemo, there's no shame in begging a benevolent, omniscient god for mercy.
I get where you're coming from and I don't judge you for it, but God isn't a terrorist holding a gun to your head waiting for you to beg Him.
He's rather a pilot telling you that you can't bring you silverware onto the helicopter while rescuing you. But if you refuse to drop your baggage he may respect your freewill and ride on.
With that said, I respect your point of view and hope I don't come off as trying to convert you. Just really enjoying the conversation and appreciate your honesty.
What led you to that belief?
I mostly agree. No person can judge you how God will when your ticket is punched. But it is clear what rejection leads to. You finding things hard to believe and accept is normal and biblically sound. We don't have the benefit of seeing these things with our own eyes as many did in the first century. It does take faith to accept it.
I don't think there is anything to explain at the time of your death to God. The creation doesn't need to explain himself to its creator. He already knows you in and out.
I'd really only recommend you keep wrestling with it. Continue to search for truth, which may not always be in the form of an argument against the truth.
There is a lot of information to sort through.
I always ask people to start with Proverbs. Read one per day, it will conveniently take you a month. They are short and only take a few minutes to read. Then maybe do it again the following month but do it more slowly and ponder what's said.
I think you'd enjoy a few read throughs of Romans.
The 1995 NASB is a pretty good modern translation. The ESV too. Both make more of an attempt, as best they can, to provide a word for word translation. It's not always possible because English is a weird language. But they generally are agreed as better at doing it than others. Online there is the Net Bible. Tons of good reference and contextual notes in it.
If you don't want to spend your money on one of those and are interested I'll have one sent to you. Just let me know.
Edit. I don't mean for this to sound douchey and after I hit post I felt like it might. I know you have your own means to do it. My thinking on it was that some people might feel it's a waste of their hard earned money and I always think a gifted Bible is a cool thing. That's all.
Edit. I don't mean for this to sound douchey and after I hit post I felt like it might. I know you have your own means to do it. My thinking on it was that some people might feel it's a waste of their hard earned money and I always think a gifted Bible is a cool thing. That's all.