(article) Jacare Sousza hasn't earned his title shot yet

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TedCzech

TedCzech

Ted Czech
Jan 11, 2016
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distant1 said:
Article discussing Jacare his career prior to the ufc, and more importantly addressing the highs and lows of his career in the ufc and how that has impacted his position in the race to earn a title shot.

UFC 208: Ronaldo "Jacare" Souza Hasn't Earned His Title Shot Yet - MMA Ratings
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Jacare's close, but not quite there yet. One more fight should get him the shot. Champ Bisping fights #1 Romero and then I've heard #2 Rockhold and #3 Jacare will probably have their long-awaited rematch sometime this year. If Jacare wins -- and the UFC doesn't allow Silva to leapfrog over everyone -- then I would think Jacare will be the next #1 contender.
 
sparkuri

sparkuri

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BrunoMcGyver said:
I think Ghey Jesus is deserving of the title shot, but Jacare is definitely next in line
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I don't think Yoel's not, and I've wanted to see it since he debuted.
I just believe it should've been the other way around long ago.
 
sparkuri

sparkuri

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TedCzech said:
Jacare's close, but not quite there yet. One more fight should get him the shot. Champ Bisping fights #1 Romero and then I've heard #2 Rockhold and #3 Jacare will probably have their long-awaited rematch sometime this year. If Jacare wins -- and the UFC doesn't allow Silva to leapfrog over everyone -- then I would think Jacare will be the next #1 contender.
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Yeah, I don't get this at all.
The UFC is absolutely ludicrous.

Jacare's only undeniable loss since his first professional fight loss to Macaco was the Mousasi upkick in Dream 8 years ago.
Never since, under unified rules, has Jacare definitively lost a fight.
He has BY FAR been the most consistent and dominating MW in ALL of MMA.
His only two losses in 8 years were arguable , the loss to Yoel being a gift fight.
After his revenge fight against Mousasi he earned that title fight.
Had a single judge in either case moved one digit, one could make a firm case that Jacare has won 16 straight fights, and save again that Romero controversial split decision, 9 of 10 wins by finish, against stronger competition in more impressive fashion.
In all honesty, It should've been:

Jacare defending his title against a gift opportunity for Yoel, which Yoel more than likely would've lost for definitely not "taking it from the champ".

Instead, Yoel, guilty of stoolgate, a minor suspension, and a drug suspension, and recipient of a gift fight and gift decision, is fighting for a title(most likely for making a possible UFC in Cuba highly lucrative), against a guy that last defended against an non-contending old-timer(controversially, and likely again because of lucrative country-friendly favoritism) and won the upset of the year in a fight he never got close to earning.

Now to play devil's advocate, Bisping did win that fight.
And Yoel did win his.
So good on them for putting themselves in a positition to be argued clear of favoritism.
But this is clearly a case of that for some time, despite a couple Jacare hold-ups.

Just to re-iterate, I'm glad Bisping is wearing gold, because he got screwed against Chael.
And Yoel has done enough to deserve a shot, and I'm glad he's getting it before it's too late.

But not at the expense of Jacare, who by the way, I don't even like.

This seems to be a case where I've seen what I call the "UFC veil of justification" influencing too many smart analysts.
 
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nni

nni

Member
Jan 21, 2015
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The UFC has almost ruined the WW and MW divisions with their title fight shenanigans.

Bisping getting the title shot ahead of Romero or Jacaré was preposterous. Henderson getting the shot ahead of those two was beyond all reason. The same with the WW division and Maia not getting a shot.
 
kneeblock

kneeblock

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Apr 18, 2015
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distant1 said:
Article discussing Jacare his career prior to the ufc, and more importantly addressing the highs and lows of his career in the ufc and how that has impacted his position in the race to earn a title shot.

UFC 208: Ronaldo "Jacare" Souza Hasn't Earned His Title Shot Yet - MMA Ratings
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The problem with this article is it rests on a number of flawed assumptions:

1) That competitive resumes are not cross temporal. This is a capitulation to the contemporary fan base rather than looking at the sport over an arc of its history which isn't about coming to any meaningful system of rankings so much as focusing on PPV sales. That PPV sales gamesmanship is something too many fans have been suckered into by promotions and pundits.

2) It fails to account for the thinness of Middleweight as a division both historically and even now. 185 has never been the deepest division in terms of athletes with diverse skill sets or excitement. Nearly all of the excitement in the division has come via fighters who were imported from other divisions, e.g. Vitor Belfort, Lyoto Machida, Chael Sonnen and Dan Henderson. All of these fighters came to the division on the heels of declining fortunes at other weights. Anderson Silva was responsible for attracting most interdivisional challengers to 185 as his actual diverse skill set competed with mostly single style athletes for much of his early UFC career. Today, Middleweight has seen a change in that most of its athletes actually built most of their careers at the weight and most of them are true mixed martial artists. Unfortunately, like Heavyweight, its top ranks are aging with a limited number of exciting prospects.

3) It unfairly disadvantages a non-English speaker for being unable to build an Anglo fan base. This again falls into the PPV sales narrative that has little to do with actual rankings or abilities. The current supposed #1 contender Romero has no greater demonstrable fanbase but he is occasionally gushed over because of his vicious KOs. Going by the crude instrument that is Twitter followers, Jacare has 99.8 thousand followers to Romero's 23.9 thousand so insofar as there is a popularity contest, Jacare seems to be in the lead. It would be fairer to say "Jacare lacking heat is why the UFC won't give him a shot" rather than lumping it into reasons he doesn't deserve one.

4) It rests on an idea that in order to face the champion you must be #1 contender and not #2 or #3. Even if mathematically Jacare was not ranked #1, there is plenty of precedent for #2, 3 or even 11 getting a title shot. Bisping himself got the title as an outlier contender. If the article is going to make an argument in favor of arbitrariness around fanbases and quality of opposition interpretation, it should at least be consistently arbitrary.

5) It neglects fights against supposed #1 contenders that Jacare has doggedly pursued but fell through either due to injury or fighters pursuing other opportunities. He has tried to fight Weidman, Rockhold and Bisping whether they were champions or not, but it hasn't worked out. In some cases, he's been actively ducked.

In sum, Jacare is no more or less deserving based on the premises in this article. Romero and Bisping are fighting and besides Jacare the only real choice would be Rockhold, who has yet to get a win since his loss to Bisping. If the thesis of the article had been "Rockhold and Jacare should rematch to determine #1 contender" it would have had a stronger argument.
 
TheEmperorRises

TheEmperorRises

Right click hospital, left click cemetery
Dec 4, 2015
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Jacare needs to fight out his contract and head to Bellator. GSP returning likely means he'll leapfrog everyone at 185 for a title shot. If GSP wins, they'll do GSP vs Silva. Then you still have Romero waiting ahead of you. And this is all not even accounting for injuries to whoever is champion pushing back the wait time even further.
 
Zeph

Zeph

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Jan 22, 2015
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TheEmperorRises said:
Jacare needs to fight out his contract and head to Bellator. GSP returning likely means he'll leapfrog everyone at 185 for a title shot. If GSP wins, they'll do GSP vs Silva. Then you still have Romero waiting ahead of you. And this is all not even accounting for injuries to whoever is champion pushing back the wait time even further.
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Do you get a bonus for advocating for fighters going to Bellator?
 
GSPTrainingInAPool

GSPTrainingInAPool

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Dec 1, 2015
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There's only 1 belt and a lot of fighters vying for it. Every title fight there could be a case made that someone is more deserving, that the #1 contender was leap-frogged. As long as the champion isn't fighting tomato cans then I think the match making is alright.
 
D

distant1

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Feb 13, 2017
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who u beat and when u beat them matters , esp in mma; jacare name wins happened years ago and since then one guy is out of the ufc and the other is on a win streak...with a chance to beat a fmr titleholder... jacare needs a name win to be in position to not be passed by mousasi or rockhold...

he doesnt have the cache to force a fight based off of ppv buys or fan interest
 
Chromium

Chromium

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Oct 10, 2016
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TL;DR: OP is incorrect, and why the fuck did the OP conveniently ignore Jacare's win over Mousasi?

I'm writing this on the assumption that this is about Jacare getting a shot at the winner of Bisping/Romero. Possibly because that's what people actually are expecting, and also because even Jacare says he's perfectly happy facing someone else like Rockhold while he waits on fighting the Bisping/Romero winner. If what the OP (who I assume wrote the piece he linked to) meant to say was that "Romero should get a shot before Jacare," I would think that it would not take eight paragraphs and not many people would disagree.


"During his run in the Octagon, Jacare’s list of opposition reads as such: Yushin Okami, Chris Camozzi (twice), Francis Carmont, Yoel Romero, Vitor Belfort, and Tim Boetsch -- not a bad list when you think about it, as all these fighters have had, for the most part, established careers in the UFC. Upon further examination, however, the record begins to get a little shaky."
The OP omits Jacare's best win here, which severely undermines his argument. How do you list and dissect all these dudes and miss his (second) fight with Gegard Mousasi? Did you just miss it, or is it willful ignorance?


"When compared to those other potential challengers, Jacare’s resume doesn’t look nearly as compelling."
On this point, the OP failed hard to back up. So let's take a look at the top 8 contenders:

1) Romero: seems to be getting the next shot with Jacare getting the winner, so no conflict there.
2) Rockhold: Last fight was a title loss by R1 TKO, and he had had zero defenses. There is no way he can be in the conversation about who should get a direct title shot.
3) Jacare
4) Weidman: Has lost two in a row, and is booked against Mousasi. Until he has that fight, he's coming off a loss and can't realistically be considered for a direct title shot. Even a win over Mousasi will have him 1-2 in this last 3 though, so while a convincing win might get him into a title eliminator, it's unlikely to get him a title shot by itself.
5) Mousasi: literally the only other dude you could make a case for right now. And his best win since his loss to Ronaldo Souza was over Vitor Belfort, a dude the OP dismissed as not being a quality win for Jacare because of his recent record. This puts him ahead of Ronaldo, how?
6) Robert Whittaker: best win is a R1 stoppage over Derek Brunson. He also has a win over Uriah Hall. This makes him a dark horse for sure, but no one is going to claim a win over Hall or Brunson is enough to land a title shot.
7) Anderson Silva: legend of the sport, but 1-4 and 1 NC in his last 6. I can excuse the loss to DC, but the other ones leave him very far from contention. His only recent success, is a win over Derek Brunson, which is also Whittaker's best credential, except Silva's win was one a lot of people thought was a robbery. If knocking Derek Brunson out to cap a 6-fight win streak isn't enough to win a title shot, I don't see how a close decision victory over the same man following a bunch of losses is enough.
8) Vitor Belfort: like the OP said, 1-3 in his last 4 fights. Dude needs a win.


So, OP, tell me again how Jacare's resume doesn't stack up? It only doesn't stack up if you reverse time to reverse his more recent fight with Mousasi into a loss.
 
Chromium

Chromium

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distant1 said:
he doesnt have the cache to force a fight based off of ppv buys or fan interest
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The problem with statements like this is you fail to provide an answer as for who does have the "cache to force a fight based on ppv buys or fan interest" that isn't completely nonsensical. When there's no one remotely credible who has these features, it is better for the sport and the title fight that you go with credibility.

So, who, other than Romero (who really isn't anymore marketable) would you suggest should replace Jacare?
 
M

member 1013

Guest
Chromium said:
TL;DR: OP is incorrect, and why the fuck did the OP conveniently ignore Jacare's win over Mousasi?

I'm writing this on the assumption that this is about Jacare getting a shot at the winner of Bisping/Romero. Possibly because that's what people actually are expecting, and also because even Jacare says he's perfectly happy facing someone else like Rockhold while he waits on fighting the Bisping/Romero winner. If what the OP (who I assume wrote the piece he linked to) meant to say was that "Romero should get a shot before Jacare," I would think that it would not take eight paragraphs and not many people would disagree.


"During his run in the Octagon, Jacare’s list of opposition reads as such: Yushin Okami, Chris Camozzi (twice), Francis Carmont, Yoel Romero, Vitor Belfort, and Tim Boetsch -- not a bad list when you think about it, as all these fighters have had, for the most part, established careers in the UFC. Upon further examination, however, the record begins to get a little shaky."
The OP omits Jacare's best win here, which severely undermines his argument. How do you list and dissect all these dudes and miss his (second) fight with Gegard Mousasi? Did you just miss it, or is it willful ignorance?


"When compared to those other potential challengers, Jacare’s resume doesn’t look nearly as compelling."
On this point, the OP failed hard to back up. So let's take a look at the top 8 contenders:

1) Romero: seems to be getting the next shot with Jacare getting the winner, so no conflict there.
2) Rockhold: Last fight was a title loss by R1 TKO, and he had had zero defenses. There is no way he can be in the conversation about who should get a direct title shot.
3) Jacare
4) Weidman: Has lost two in a row, and is booked against Mousasi. Until he has that fight, he's coming off a loss and can't realistically be considered for a direct title shot. Even a win over Mousasi will have him 1-2 in this last 3 though, so while a convincing win might get him into a title eliminator, it's unlikely to get him a title shot by itself.
5) Mousasi: literally the only other dude you could make a case for right now. And his best win since his loss to Ronaldo Souza was over Vitor Belfort, a dude the OP dismissed as not being a quality win for Jacare because of his recent record. This puts him ahead of Ronaldo, how?
6) Robert Whittaker: best win is a R1 stoppage over Derek Brunson. He also has a win over Uriah Hall. This makes him a dark horse for sure, but no one is going to claim a win over Hall or Brunson is enough to land a title shot.
7) Anderson Silva: legend of the sport, but 1-4 and 1 NC in his last 6. I can excuse the loss to DC, but the other ones leave him very far from contention. His only recent success, is a win over Derek Brunson, which is also Whittaker's best credential, except Silva's win was one a lot of people thought was a robbery. If knocking Derek Brunson out to cap a 6-fight win streak isn't enough to win a title shot, I don't see how a close decision victory over the same man following a bunch of losses is enough.
8) Vitor Belfort: like the OP said, 1-3 in his last 4 fights. Dude needs a win.


So, OP, tell me again how Jacare's resume doesn't stack up? It only doesn't stack up if you reverse time to reverse his more recent fight with Mousasi into a loss.
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You knocked that one out of the park

Only thing that would make it more convincing is a Venn diagram or a cool graph
 
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