Doctor's moral compasses are about just as trustworthy as lawyers.
This Is How Fighters Die
- Thread starter ErikMagraken
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True...he looked fukin terrible though....I think Rogan made some comments about him not being able to stand on his own pre-weigh-in. I could be wrong though.
How do you feel about the changes California is making? I particularly like the fact that they can have fighters weigh in 30 days out. Seems like they're on the forefront of fixing this fiasco.
I think California is the gold standard in the current regulatory landscape on this issue.
Ah hell nah.
If you institute same day weigh-ins, you'll get nearly as much extreme weight cutting with a lot less time to rehydrate, and things will be even worse. You're seriously expecting fighters to "figure it out" and drop extreme weight cutting within a year, for the sake of their own health?
If fighters cared about their health more than a competitive edge they wouldn't fucking be fighters.
And they can do that now as well.
They also would have more lead time on how to proceed with a scratched bout with the 36 hour lead-in time they have currently than they would with same-day weigh-ins, but that's a secondary point.
Not if they have hydration testing.... all you'll get are people not eating to drop a few pounds. But they won't be dropping ten pounds in water weight . So they'll likely be up a weight class where they belong
It's funny I remember watching fights long ago with casuals and they'd be like I can't believe this guy is 155lbs he looks like he's 180. And come fightnight, they're pretty close to 180. So having them weigh in at 155 is kind of stupid if they're just gonna be 170-180 the next day when they're fighting
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All fighters aren't as stupid as you're making them out to be. The decreased performance would be motivator enough "not to do that again."
But hey, maybe I'm wrong (it wouldn't be the first time), maybe there are wrestling tournaments (where matches do not typically go 15 or 25 minutes) in which people regularly cut >10% of their body weight on the same day they compete.
if they didn't allow water weight cutting(by implementing effective dehydration testing for weigh ins), the "small people no one is interested in" wouldn't be so small (casuals really think they weigh 135 pounds on fight night) and the lower weight classes would be eliminated. They could add more weight classes in the middle/higher up to remedy that.
What's to stop them from
EDIT: fucking hell I don't even remember what I was writing here.
I think a lot of them will do what they're doing now: cut as much as they think they can cut without sacrificing a competitive edge. Only with only 12 hours to recover instead of 36 hours there will be much less room for error.
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They should just hold training camps four times a year and assign weight classes based on natural weight. The weigh in is obviously pointless at this stage.
And let the guys wear footwear again for crying out loud. Lorenzo's gay foot fetish isn't a factor anymore.
Agreed- and the ABC Medical Committee recommended that the "10 point plan" Andy Foster adopted in California be adopted nationwide. The full ABC supported a version of the plan, but legally it is up to every state athletic committee to enact the rules in their state.
Hydration testing would stop them from cutting tremendous amounts of water out of their body to lose pounds on the scale, which is far more dangerous than not eating food
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And how do you think that would help them perform? What's your experience in cutting weight on the same day you compete?
I'm asking because I did that once and after that I told myself I'd just compete in the higher class if it came down to cutting on the same day.
Fighters HATE cutting weight, HATE IT; they would not cut and fight on the same day. I can see a lot of dummies in the amateur and smaller orgs trying this but it would hurt their performance i.e. they'd probably lose a lot more than they'd win with that strategy, and so they wouldn't go on to compete in the bigger promotions.
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Here is my aforementioned thread on that subject:
Weight Cutting Should Be BANNED | TMMAC - The MMA Community Forum
And here is some data I based my weight-classes on. Isn't that crazy?!?! Using scientific data to make a decision about a sport? What a goof I am.........
Mean Male Weights and Weightclasses | TMMAC - The MMA Community Forum
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great thread, thanks
@ErikMagraken. this is the single biggest issue in mma and it often gets neglected. CSAC is making a legendary effort to adress this which makes them the only AC that I'm aware of that is worth their salt and if TMMAC would elect this as its gold standard I believe we would be doing our part as an "mma community".
I always find ridiculous (and have hinted at it many times) that weigh cutting is seldom discussed while most people express great concern for some mysterious dangers like the infinite power of PEDs or the menace of soccer kicks. most mma fans are more worried about the hypothetical threat of a juiced up beast kicking their opponent's head off into the stands than about extreme weight cutting, which is happening in front of our eyes and killing people right now.
@ErikMagraken. this is the single biggest issue in mma and it often gets neglected. CSAC is making a legendary effort to adress this which makes them the only AC that I'm aware of that is worth their salt and if TMMAC would elect this as its gold standard I believe we would be doing our part as an "mma community".I always find ridiculous (and have hinted at it many times) that weigh cutting is seldom discussed while most people express great concern for some mysterious dangers like the infinite power of PEDs or the menace of soccer kicks. most mma fans are more worried about the hypothetical threat of a juiced up beast kicking their opponent's head off into the stands than about extreme weight cutting, which is happening in front of our eyes and killing people right now.
just read the first post of the second thread and got very interested. good stuff.
I'm well aware of how weight cutting for fights work, and that the water cut at the end is the dangerous part. I have no idea why I stopped in the middle of a sentence to reply to someone else, though sorry about that x_x
The thing about hydration tests is that promotions could and should already be using them under the current system. I'm not at all opposed to them.
Ideally, I think it should work like this: if a fighter is too dehydrated 6 hours out from the fight, the fight is scratched. If a fighter passes a rehydration test but gains too much weight, they have to move up a weight class for at least one fight (or 18 months if sidelined), and not be allowed back down until they can prove to a physician that they can get no more than 12% above their weigh-in weight while fully hydrated, preferably with one mulligan allowed.
I know fighters hate cutting weight, and that it's the worst part of it. Since you asked, when I wrestled in high school, I never cut more than 3 or 4 pounds, and usually my weight cut involved a light lunch and taking as big a dump as I could prior to weigh-ins. One of my teammates was one of the best wrestlers in the city (Washington D.C.), and he put a shitton of effort into his weight cuts and I kind of marveled at that. That was a long-ass time ago, and I didn't know much at all about the subject when I was a teenager.
Anyway, you're speaking anecdotally here from a single fight. Fighters are still going to go for the biggest weight advantage possible, because it's what allows them to win. Regardless of whether the shorter timeframe means they end up cutting less to meet that goal, the possibility of cutting far more than they can rehydrate is something that's going to magnify itself, because with less time to rehydrate there will be less time for error, and you'll have a greater chance of fighters fighting dehydrated and incurring additional head trauma, and that's what concerns me.
If fighters were generally in favor of same-day weigh-ins and the UFC and other major organizations were down to regularly test fighters' hydration and weight starting ten days out from fights maybe I'd change my mind, but I don't see that happening within the foreseeable future.
I feel like that's just a shitload of work.... it's really as simple as being able to make weight while properly hydrated. Everyone will bump up a weight class (possibly 2) but aside from that, nothing is different. Fighters will for the most part face the same opponents they would be facing if they cut water weight, since everyone did it. But since no one would cut extreme amounts of water weight with this testing , you would probably see the level of intensity and conditioning increase in fights and overall, fights would be better
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First off, I'm enjoying the discussion with you, cheers for doing your part.
See that's true on a day prior weigh-in but I disagree that it's any advantage on a same day weigh-in.
You're totally right and I think they know and understand how being dehydrated leads to a piss poor performance. It doesn't matter if you're 12% heavier than the animal standing across from you if you're dehydrated. I do think some fighters would try it but it would take a year or so before the results showed just how detrimental to performance it actually is.
I think the solution of making them weigh within a certain percentage of their fighting weight a week or so before the fight is a good one. It would definitely eliminate these extreme issues.
I think what One did after that fighter died is something like that. They basically ended up moving everyone up a weight class.