General What do you guys think about parents that accidentally leave their kids in hot cars???

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Splinty

Splinty

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Dec 31, 2014
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blank said:
So, if I understand your laws correctly, leaving one's dog to die in a sweltering vehicle is a criminal offence but as far as you're concerned leaving one's child to do the same should not be.
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No.
The dog references are total red herrings. It's equally illegal to leave a child in the car on purpose. We're talking about a very specific set of cases, that seem to have a very specific set pattern, and that studies show a unique pattern of habituation that removes intent and for which said habituation is possible for anybody.



blank said:
My understanding of your reasoning is that an accident of that magnitude and loss is punishment in and of itself.
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My reasoning is that is an accident purely due to lack of intent and neurology. Not simply because it's an accident. But purely because its an accident that occurs with a parent that acted in a manner that other parents do as well, and physiologic conditioning resulted in the accident. Not neglect and not intent.
Beyond that, an objective look at the punishment shows that it does not meet any of our usual goals in society. So I question why the focus on criminality. What do we gain as a society?

People get in drunken car wrecks kill their loved ones and there is a great magnitude of loss I'm sure. We still use the criminal system for those people appropriately. I'm not simply arguing that if there's a big loss there can be no criminal finding.



blank said:
I don't know how you would expect that not to be abused in your society.
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Indeed that is a concern. But that is a detective question and not one of criminal proceedings if you are clear on the details. When this phenomenon got press coverage decades ago, I remember seeing follow up stories in which fathers would intentionally leave their child in the car and then try to act like they blanked out. Interviews about the behavior before and after, as well as their inability to keep their story straight busted them.

But I'm not trying to hash out being a great Detective. If you 100% know that the mother or father love their child, was good to their child, intended to bring their child to daycare like the OP, etc. Do you still jail that parent? That is the thread question. All the details of the case have been posted, and any references to cases with change details on intent or reasoning for leaving the child in the car do not apply.
 
Robbie Hart

Robbie Hart

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Splinty said:
No.
The dog references are total red herrings. It's equally illegal to leave a child in the car on purpose. We're talking about a very specific set of cases, that seem to have a very specific set pattern, and that studies show a unique pattern of habituation that removes intent and for which said habituation is possible for anybody.




My reasoning is that is an accident purely due to lack of intent and neurology. Not simply because it's an accident. But purely because its an accident that occurs with a parent that acted in a manner that other parents do as well, and physiologic conditioning resulted in the accident. Not neglect and not intent.
Beyond that, an objective look at the punishment shows that it does not meet any of our usual goals in society. So I question why the focus on criminality. What do we gain as a society?

People get in drunken car wrecks kill their loved ones and there is a great magnitude of loss I'm sure. We still use the criminal system for those people appropriately. I'm not simply arguing that if there's a big loss there can be no criminal finding.





Indeed that is a concern. But that is a detective question and not one of criminal proceedings if you are clear on the details. When this phenomenon got press coverage decades ago, I remember seeing follow up stories in which fathers would intentionally leave their child in the car and then try to act like they blanked out. Interviews about the behavior before and after, as well as their inability to keep their story straight busted them.

But I'm not trying to hash out being a great Detective. If you 100% know that the mother or father love their child, was good to their child, intended to bring their child to daycare like the OP, etc. Do you still jail that parent? That is the thread question. All the details of the case have been posted, and any references to cases with change details on intent or reasoning for leaving the child in the car do not apply.
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You don’t put them in jail, you sterilise them or execute them.....nobody in their right mind ever forgets their child in a car. Lol at any other thoughts on the subject......
 
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Splinty said:
No.
The dog references are total red herrings. It's equally illegal to leave a child in the car on purpose. We're talking about a very specific set of cases, that seem to have a very specific set pattern, and that studies show a unique pattern of habituation that removes intent and for which said habituation is possible for anybody.
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It is not a red herring. Is it legal to accidentally let one's dog die after 8 hours in a hot car?
Splinty said:
My reasoning is that is an accident purely due to lack of intent and neurology. Not simply because it's an accident. But purely because its an accident that occurs with a parent that acted in a manner that other parents do as well, and physiologic conditioning resulted in the accident. Not neglect and not intent.
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The thing I don't like about what you're arguing is how responsibility gets removed for some people's negligence, isn't all negligence due to some neural activity?
What you're arguing boils down to:
A) "Oh no, I forgot. Sorry."
B) "Don't fret, we'll get through this."

Are you in favour of that only if someone kills their own child with neglect or anyone?

Splinty said:
Beyond that, an objective look at the punishment shows that it does not meet any of our usual goals in society. So I question why the focus on criminality. What do we gain as a society?
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Fair point, I agree 100% with some of that. Perhaps this person doesn't deserve the hate people wish upon her, if in fact it was a genuine accident.
But criminality is the focus because a 21-month year old child was left to die in a hot vehicle....what do "we" gain as a society by giving people a free pass on that? It's society's responsibility to focus on the criminality because the deceased was a part of your society.
Splinty said:
If you 100% know that the mother or father love their child, was good to their child, intended to bring their child to daycare like the OP, etc. Do you still jail that parent? That is the thread question. All the details of the case have been posted, and any references to cases with change details on intent or reasoning for leaving the child in the car do not apply.
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My answer is I don't know, but probably yes- in an institution. Then it would come down to her family, if they could care for her when she's out and help rehabilitate her.
 
nuraknu

nuraknu

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Ok, so what if we teach people a new habit, the way we teach them now to put a baby on their back, or teach them how to install a carseat? What if there is a special, loud-colored, easy to put on bracelet (like one of those that has a part of it open) or smartwatch-like device that is kept in the carseat? The driver is taught to grab it and put it on when they put the child in the seat, then put it back in the seat when they take the child out? Would it work?

What if it talked to you every half hour to say "your child has been in their car seat for 2 hours"? What if it was programmed with different kinds of "dings" and voices so you are less likely to get used to it and ignore it?
 
Sex Chicken

Sex Chicken

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nuraknu said:
Ok, so what if we teach people a new habit, the way we teach them now to put a baby on their back, or teach them how to install a carseat? What if there is a special, loud-colored, easy to put on bracelet (like one of those that has a part of it open) or smartwatch-like device that is kept in the carseat? The driver is taught to grab it and put it on when they put the child in the seat, then put it back in the seat when they take the child out? Would it work?

What if it talked to you every half hour to say "your child has been in their car seat for 2 hours"? What if it was programmed with different kinds of "dings" and voices so you are less likely to get used to it and ignore it?
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I’m sure it’s coming. The same type of alarm that goes off if you open your door with the keys left in the ignition. It goes off if the baby’s seat buckle is closed.
(I’m going to build a prototype in my shed tomorrow, in case that idea hasn’t been patented yet, see you peasants when I hire one of you to clean the toilet in my yacht.”
 
Nemo?

Nemo?

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nuraknu said:
Ok, so what if we teach people a new habit, the way we teach them now to put a baby on their back, or teach them how to install a carseat? What if there is a special, loud-colored, easy to put on bracelet (like one of those that has a part of it open) or smartwatch-like device that is kept in the carseat? The driver is taught to grab it and put it on when they put the child in the seat, then put it back in the seat when they take the child out? Would it work?

What if it talked to you every half hour to say "your child has been in their car seat for 2 hours"? What if it was programmed with different kinds of "dings" and voices so you are less likely to get used to it and ignore it?
Click to expand...
Good idea but....

the type of people forgetting kid's in car's won't remember a bracelet.

Shieeeet when my daughter slept as a baby I would check on her hourly to make sure she didn't tangle herself in her blanket or put her neck in a bad position.....I am no parent of the year but it blows my mind how someone can forget a living thing in a car for 2 hours.

Maybe pure exhaustion? who knows.....but when a kid is at that age and outside the house they are always priority #1 it's simple......the little drunks.
 
Grateful Dude

Grateful Dude

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Shinkicker said:
'It's just tragic' 3-year-old who died in hot day care van identified

3-year-old who died in hot day care van identified

Splinty @Splinty , should someone at the daycare be criminally responsible?
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3 year olds in day care go on field trips?!

I've never seen or heard of that, and in my experience with children that young that are in schools/daycares is that there are no field trips. Especially ones that require a school bus and travel. With all the security precautions schools have to take nowadays, I'm just sort of surprised at this story.




Sad stuff. RIP little man.
 
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SuperPig

SuperPig

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GratefulGiarc said:
3 year olds in day care go on field trips?!

I've never seen or heard of that, and in my experience with children that young that are in schools/daycares is that there are no field trips. Especially ones that require a school bus and travel. With all the security precautions schools have to take nowadays, I'm just sort of surprised at this story.




Sad stuff. RIP little man.
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The pre-school that my Goddaughter goes to has "field trips." Most of the time it's something really close and they just walk and have police stop traffic for them if they have to cross a street. Occasionally they take them to a library or something similar and have police escort when they do. It's kind of cool but kind of crazy at the same time. Gotta love a small town that's become a suburb of Northern Virginia.
 
Grateful Dude

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willthiswork said:
The pre-school that my Goddaughter goes to has "field trips." Most of the time it's something really close and they just walk and have police stop traffic for them if they have to cross a street. Occasionally they take them to a library or something similar and have police escort when they do. It's kind of cool but kind of crazy at the same time. Gotta love a small town that's become a suburb of Northern Virginia.
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I agree - it is kind of cool but crazy at the same time. I don't think they do field trips for kids that young here. They'll have the police, or firemen come to the school to talk to the kids and let them play on the fire truck, or they will have someone from the local zoo come set up an educational petting zoo. Stuff like that, but it's always on the school campus.

There are a lot of precautions in schools these days. For fucks sake, I have to give written permission for my son's teachers to be allowed to apply sunscreen or bug spray lol. And there are two layers of locked doors to get through to the classrooms (kidnapping prevention), only full time teachers (not assistants) are allowed to take the kids on a one-on-one situation. These kind of examples are what made me surprised that kids that young would be traveling for a field trip.
 
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willthiswork said:
The pre-school that my Goddaughter goes to has "field trips." Most of the time it's something really close and they just walk and have police stop traffic for them if they have to cross a street. Occasionally they take them to a library or something similar and have police escort when they do. It's kind of cool but kind of crazy at the same time. Gotta love a small town that's become a suburb of Northern Virginia.
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GratefulGiarc said:
I agree - it is kind of cool but crazy at the same time. I don't think they do field trips for kids that young here. They'll have the police, or firemen come to the school to talk to the kids and let them play on the fire truck, or they will have someone from the local zoo come set up an educational petting zoo. Stuff like that, but it's always on the school campus.

There are a lot of precautions in schools these days. For fucks sake, I have to give written permission for my son's teachers to be allowed to apply sunscreen or bug spray lol. And there are two layers of locked doors to get through to the classrooms (kidnapping prevention), only full time teachers (not assistants) are allowed to take the kids on a one-on-one situation. These kind of examples are what made me surprised that kids that young would be traveling for a field trip.
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Both of you two are parents, I am not so my observations could be deemed either irrelevant but possibly rather unbiased.
That sounds like fear and mistrust have taken hold and normalized at a very young age...but can't the kids just apply sunscreen on each other?
 
SuperPig

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blank said:
Both of you two are parents, I am not so my observations could be deemed either irrelevant but possibly rather unbiased.
That sounds like fear and mistrust have taken hold and normalized at a very young age...but can't the kids just apply sunscreen on each other?
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I'm not a real parent. My pull-out game is strong.
 
SuperPig

SuperPig

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blank said:
You mean she is not the daughter you and God had together?
I am confused...and not for the first time :(
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No. I'm just the person that gets to pay for things if her parents say no.


I also get to make people disappear if they fuck with her.


I'm the right person for both jobs.
 
Grateful Dude

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blank said:
but can't the kids just apply sunscreen on each other?
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We're talking young kids here man, can you imagine a bunch of 2 and 3 years going crazy with a bottle of sunscreen lol


I get what you're saying about the fear and mistrust. It's unfortunate, but the reality of having a kid in school these days. My son is just about 5, and in that short of time we've seen additional security measures added. Like the second layer of locked doors, and a coded gate at the driveway entrance. Their implementation seems to follow tragic headlines (such as school shootings or kidnappings). On one hand it seems crazy that all of these measures need to take place, especially because our kid is in a safe school in a good neighborhood, etc. But on the other hand I am glad that they are proactive and have taken steps before anything bad has happened.


Weird world we live in. I was supervised WAY less as a child. Culture these days almost forces you to helicopter-parent (at least a little).
 
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