At what point do we 'give out belts'

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SAJ

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Aug 2, 2015
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Im bored out work so thought I'll open up a new discussion.

There's a guy at my club whos in his late 40's, been a purple belt for almost 6 years,trains consistently, about 4-5 days a week, helps out in the gym and is a good dude. However my coach won't promote him because he says his way too stiff in his bjj, clamps too much when rolling, and not really evolving.

I was discussing with my coach and said 'surely we can't hold him to the same standard of a young, competition brown belt' my coach agreed with me, but said he has a standard to maintain.

So it made me think, at what point do you award someone a belt based on merit I.e the years they've put in (if they are training consistently)

I know in this martial art we don't exactly hand out belts based on a attendance card so to speak, but years at particular belt is definitely a factor when promoting students.

So is it right to assume older students should be held to a different standard when being promoted?

And if someone is not evolving do you keep them out their current belt? Even if they have been their for a number of years?

@Rhino SC MMA MD @SC MMA MD
 

SC MMA MD

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I would argue that belts should never be given out just for time put in, but for sure there are different standards for different people.
Everyone has the ability to progress, but not everyone has the same potential. I am 44, have been training for almost 9 years, and consistently train 6-7 “sessions” a week (I count rolling for an hour before class, doing beginner class and then advanced class a single session, but AM class then evening class in the same day as different sessions) and do weight lifting or running 5 days a week outside of class time. I am a purple belt. There are people who were world champion black belts in less time than that, while I am mediocre at best. However- I consistently improve (slowly), follow my instructors advice, and work on my weaknesses.
I have seen lots of students who reach blue or purple, and seem to mentally check out. They show up, but play the same game with the same holes and never really put effort into truly getting better. Or, they train once or twice a week for a while and then disappear for months at a time. Or they show up, but still the move once and then sit talking or screwing around, and they sit out more rounds than they roll. Folks like that should not get socially promoted IMO.

TLDR: folks who don’t evolve should not get promoted IMO.

On a related note- there seem to be a consistent and inverse relationship between how deserving someone is of the next belt and how interested they are in getting promoted.
 

SAJ

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I guess then some people shouldn't receive a black belt in bjj even if they have trained for a lifetime, if they dont have the relvant skills or knowledge to back it up. This is what my coach was trying to explain to me
 

SC MMA MD

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I guess then some people shouldn't receive a black belt in bjj even if they have trained for a lifetime, if they dont have the relvant skills or knowledge to back it up. This is what my coach was trying to explain to me
I think that the number of people who have trained for 15+ years and don’t meet the criteria for BB is pretty small though; it seems like most of the non-progressors I talk about above are practically trying to not get better, or at least are not making a significant effort.
 
M

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Great inquiry, and there is a LOT to say on this.

Long and short, there are different standards that people are held to when it comes to promotions. There are levels to this, you often hear that "every black belt isn't created equal", and that is true (for numerous reasons). A person who has started training in BJJ, maybe in his mid/late 30's, and earns a black belt in their mid/late 40's.... will they be the same level black belt as lets say an early 20's Gordon Ryan? Or someone like Buchecha?

The biggest issue in promotions in BJJ today, is that business owners have to decipher between tradition and business. In the sense of lineage and tradition, I think that 75% of practitioners would probably be 1 to 2 belt levels lower than they currently are (I look at my coach, one of Royce's first black belts, came up in the Gracie Academy under Helio and Rorion and Royce/Royler/Renzo/etc.... He told me that in his day, it was 12-14 YEARS to earn a black belt..... Nowadays you see guys earn it in 6). The Gracie's nitpicked EVERY little detail of BJJ, and made sure that you were perfect at it....... The issue that created is that a LOT of guys left the GA, and went off and got black belts from other sources (Marc Laimon was one who famously ran out of there crying). This brings up the business side, as a business owner, you don't want your people getting frustrated and disenfranchised with the art, so often times they are usually promoted to keep them encouraged and coming back. You see this (I especially do) in youth programs.... Sadly this is a "participation award" generation now, where EVERYONE needs to feel special without actually earning it. I've seen/heard/dealt with parents of kids, AND adult practitioners threaten to quit if they aren't promoted (to which, I'm like... BYE MOTHERFUCKER!!).... This is the society we are in nowadays, and if you want to make a living teaching and owning an academy, sometimes you have to ride that line between making money and keeping up with traditions.

There is a quote I heard, from either Lloyd Irvin, or Alan Belcher.... One of those guys who do those "How to run a better gym" seminars..... It was something like of your student base, 90% of your students pay your bills, 10% are your talent..... But of that 10%, 70% may go on to be teachers/coaches, and 30% will be your fighters/elite. As a coach, they will see those teachers/coaches, fighters/elite and hold them to a waaaaaay higher standard than the other 90%, that 10%'s promotions will be less frequent, they'll be highly critiqued, their knowledge and understanding will be called into question daily.... It will test them, it will break them, it will make them want to quit..... But if they continue to show, continue to train, continue to be loyal, at the end of the day they'll be better for it. Even if the students in the 90% get promoted before them, or are similar belt rankings, the truth is EVERYONE knows.... everyone knows that the one guy who shows up maybe once a week for 4 years, vs that 10% elite who trains 1 to 2 times a day, 7 days a week, for 2 years..... everyone knows that the levels are different (and like Royce said, "A belt only covers 2 inches of your ass, you better cover the rest", so you're only as good as you can back up).

In regards to skills and knowledge, there are guys who have ALL the knowledge, Know ALL the techniques, but may not be able to physically demonstrate it due to age or other factors (the example I used earlier of a mid/late 40's black belt vs a 23 year old Gordon Ryan). On the flip side, there are guys who may be world beaters as competitors, but don't know all the BJJ techniques, the self defense system, or how to properly stand up in base (nor can they teach it)...... Just because you executed a move..... let's saaaaaay, sit down, play shin on shin, shoot a leg through for an ashi garame/single leg X and turn it into a Honey Hole/411/Saddle finishing with a heel hook..... And you beat everyone with that.... Doesn't make you a legit black belt (especially if you don't know the other stuff like collar chokes or self defense), just means that you are great at that one thing. Your belt should be an indication that you know your rear bear hug defense, as well as you know your lasso sweeps, as well as your hip toss, and well as your no gi leg locks.

Long answer I know, but it basically comes down to this..... many different reasons to how professors promote, but at the end of the day, just focus on your journey and your promotions will come.... If someone who you feel isn't at the level gets promoted to a level before you... no worries... go out there and roll that higher belt (like my coach says, force me to promote you..... show the knowledge and skill set required for you to get to the next level, force your coach's hand... make him promote you based off your work).

Hope my novel is understandable LOL
 

SAJ

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Thanks @Rhino for the detailed reply. I appreciate it. Great points you made. I understood them perfectly.

When you're new you literally think Black beats brown and brown beats purple, like its a game of rock, paper scissors, but you're right in that there are levels to every belt, and belts are just an indication of where you are in your own personal journey through bjj

I think back in the Royce days shit was differen though. Their guys were training for fights. Any moment some one could walk in the gym and call them out for a challenge, plus there was the vale tudo/mma aspect, so shit had to be on point. Now we live in a softer era, where 'bjj is for everyone' I remember my old coach telling me how back in the day the bjj classes were gruelling Long warm ups, intense sparring every day. He had to switch it up due to the different clientele bjj started to attract, middle aged moms, kids, business men who never been in a fight before etc

Btw none of this affects me or bothers me personally i just thought its an interesting thing to speak about. We should have more random bjj topics to discuss lol
 

La Paix

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Any thoughts from your coaches, or from stories you've heard around the way?
I just hear our club isn't quick to hand them out which is good imo.

Solid thread though guys, lots of good info here. This here is perfect, great perspective.

go out there and roll that higher belt (like my coach says, force me to promote you..... show the knowledge and skill set required for you to get to the next level, force your coach's hand... make him promote you based off your work).
 

lueVelvet

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Aug 29, 2015
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The gym we were attending had the older school mentality when it came to full belt promotions but would use stripes to help encourage people. But the old school approach almost always applied. If you were showing up and putting in the work, learning the techniques taught in class etc you were almost guaranteed to earn a stripe every other quarter or so. They praised loyalty and participation as well as learning the techniques. Sometimes you didn’t have to pull them off perfectly but if they saw you in there TRYING to perfect them, that could result in a stripe.

But full belts were another story. I knew two brown belts who were due (IMO) for their black belts. One taught almost everyday, mopped floors every night and coached many people through their first competitions (my wife included). He joined when he was very overweight and for 10 years stuck by the main coach and owner of the gym. It seemed like it took forever for him to get that black belt but as @Rhino mentioned, the 10% who are fit to receive it are held to that higher standard and so they waited. And waited and waited until coach was ready and boy was that day good. I remember seeing pics of him tearing up, he’ll even I teared up from afar lol. The wait was worth it and I don’t think he would complain about it either.

Another brown belt I knew simply had a different attitude. He would teach some technique in class but he wasn’t a very outgoing guy. A little bit of a misanthrope but was a good dude once you got to know him. Typical introvert type that was super into catch wrestling and really admired folks like Josh Barnett. He would try to teach certain catch wrestling techniques but because it was BJJ he would be lax about showing up and putting the extra time in. He may have understood and could perform the taught techniques but his lack of interest in showing up showed a little flaw in his character and again was tested for it before even being considered for his black belt. He would get frustrated that he wasn’t getting it sooner and that just prolonged it even more. He eventually did but I think it was because he stood by coach for many years and he needed it to move into the next phase of his life, whatever that would be. I do recall him talking about taking a break after getting his black belt which I think was a huge factor in him not getting it for a few years!

I don’t like to use myself as an example other than getting hurt early into my attempt at formal training and thus having to stop but I was one of those who understood the techniques on paper but didn’t have the practice to deserve anything from coach. He saw I had the right ideas I just didn’t have the physical ability to pull it off. My brain was far ahead of my body in that regard and I wound up hurting my back and my neck (aggravated previous injuries) in the process. I never received a stripe on my WB because I simply didn’t show up though I could outroll most other WBs in class most times. Had I powered through the injuries I’m sure I would have been rewarded when coach felt it was necessary but he didn’t give me anything for free and I appreciate him for that. My wife was able to continue training for much longer and received her blue belt until some personal issues took her out of training for a while.

We still talk about going back but right now we’re focussing on mental and physical health before we try again. We both needed to be stronger and less injury prone so we’ve been focussing on strength training and cardio. We’re preparing to run our first 5K in December and maybe once I get to a point where I feel like I can handle it better I will go back. Time is always an issue as well. At 40 and having not started when I was younger I never found a way to really dedicate the necessary time into it and I always felt I was not giving it the time I needed. But life changes and with those changes opportunities arise to get back at it.
 
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SC MMA MD

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AND adult practitioners threaten to quit if they aren't promoted (to which, I'm like... BYE MOTHERFUCKER!!)....
This has been the saddest thing I have learned about “adults” since starting BJJ. I can’t believe how entitled some people are.
 

SAJ

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Aug 2, 2015
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This has been the saddest thing I have learned about “adults” since starting BJJ. I can’t believe how entitled some people are.
I've seen grown men get worked up over stripes! Forget belts

"But i started 2 weeks before him, how come i didn't get my stripe" lol
 

maurice

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Oct 21, 2015
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Any thoughts from your coaches, or from stories you've heard around the way?
Didn't read the whole thread but...

My coach promotes probably 95% on ability and 5% on age, time on mats, and other factors. For example, he will quickly promote a Div 1 wrestler who wants to compete to avoid sandbagging, even if his guard sucks. OTOH, he will very reluctantly promote an old guy who sucks but comes to class regularly for 2 years.

My kids coach (and other local Brazilians) however are far more willing to promote based on consistent tuition payment.
 

Darqnezz

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Apr 25, 2015
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My coach grades tough, but he’s also compassionate. He told me almost a 6 months ago that I was technically sound (for advancement), but he needed to see more from me in terms of attendance. My work schedule is all over the place. So he gave me a key to the gym where I hold informal fundamental classes for the new guys when my schedule permits. More mat time for me. I’m helping others learn, & remembering all the little tiny details I’ve been missing. Huge improvement in my game & boom I get promoted. In my gym it’s about putting in the work. If you show up & put in time, the promotion will come. I do however, understand a coach that’s unwilling to promote someone that refuses to open up their game. If you’re just grabbing and holding on to people you’re not doing Jiujitsu. There are different paths to higher rank, but all should include improvement in your skill set.
 

Darqnezz

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Apr 25, 2015
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I just hear our club isn't quick to hand them out which is good imo.

Solid thread though guys, lots of good info here. This here is perfect, great perspective.

go out there and roll that higher belt (like my coach says, force me to promote you..... show the knowledge and skill set required for you to get to the next level, force your coach's hand... make him promote you based off your work).
I like your coaches mindset. When I made the push for promotion, I decided to always give the higher belts my A game. That doesn’t mean always going hard, but always trying to be focused and make them work to put me in bad positions. If I get caught I make them work for it. I open up my game, have more fun and try new things when I roll with guys my level and below.