How do we assess Chris 'Turok 2.0' Weidman's career?

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Sheepdog

Sheepdog

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Let's have a quick look at the ages of the top fighters he beat over his career.

Maia - 34
Munoz - 34
Anderson - 38
Machida - 36
Vitor - 38
Gastelum - 26

Weidman himself is now 35.

So he beat one top-tier fighter in his physical prime. And I'd like to remind people just how ridiculous the size advantage was in that fight:



So basically, excepting one fighter he was twice the size of, he didn't beat any other fighter that wasn't the same age or older than he was by the time he had already been KOd in 5/6 fights and washed out of the sport.

As good as we thought he was initially, we are going to have to accept that he was just in the right place at the right time to feast on the elderly.
 
Sheepdog

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And if you think I'm deliberately ignoring Tom Lawler and Urijah Hall as 'top fighters', you are absolutely correct.
 
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Yep. As much as I wanted him to be great, he was always simply a bit overrated.
 
Dick Niaz

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While I agree, that argument can be applied to a lot of careers. It is bound to happen - some people are on their way up while others are on the back nine of their careers. Munoz and Maia started MMA fairly late. Pretty much everyone on that list went on to have at least one significant win after losing to Chris so it is not like they were shot.
 
Sheepdog

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Dick Niaz said:
While I agree, that argument can be applied to a lot of careers. It is bound to happen - some people are on their way up while others are on the back nine of their careers. Munoz and Maia started MMA fairly late. Pretty much everyone on that list went on to have at least one significant win after losing to Chris so it is not like they were shot.
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It's actually an anti-revisionism argument I'm making. MMA fans are dipshits and don't seem to understand age is, you know, pretty important. They accuse old fighters of always being overrated when they lose.

I was big on Weidman. I used to suggest he could move up and challenge Jones (yes, I'm that much of a retard). But his legacy doesn't hold up. The first fellow elite, prime fighter he fought (Rockhold), he got obliterated.

People accused Anderson of being exposed when he lost to Weidman (and I was, sort of, one of them). He was 38. 30 fucking 8. That's 3 years older than Weidman is now, after getting KOd 5/6 times.
 
Atto

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I re-watched the fight between Anderson and Weidman few days ago, and Anderson just lost because of his clowning.
 
Sheepdog

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Atto said:
I re-watched the fight between Anderson and Weidman few days ago, and Anderson just lost because of his clowning.
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Disagree. People go too far either side of these fights. Both finishes were indecisive (let's cut the shit about the 'knee smash') but Weidman was clowning him both fights. He was going to win both regardless.
 
Atto

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CreativeClassMauler said:
Disagree. People go too far either side of these fights. Both finishes were indecisive (let's cut the shit about the 'knee smash') but Weidman was clowning him both fights. He was going to win both regardless.
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Maybe, but what if Anderson wasn't clowning. He was doing pretty well .
2nd fight Weidman would have won no matter what.
 
Robbie Hart

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You fight who they put in front of you......he can’t help what age the guys are and what point in their career they were
 
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Atto said:
Maybe, but what if Anderson wasn't clowning. He was doing pretty well .
2nd fight Weidman would have won no matter what.
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He started clowning because he was losing and was trying to take Chris out of the fight mentally.

It was a terrible mistake that cost him the fight, but even if he had been serious the entire time he would have been dominated.
 
Onetrickpony

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conor mcgregor nut hugger said:
He started clowning because he was losing and was trying to take Chris out of the fight mentally.

It was a terrible mistake that cost him the fight, but even if he had been serious the entire time he would have been dominated.
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I think he started clowning because he was pissed off / unaccustomed to fighters not being scared of him and giving him the distance he needed to set up his striking. Anderson was used to a level of fear and respect from his opponents and Weidman gave him nothing. I still believe he could have won if he had not let his ego get the better of him.
 
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Onetrickpony said:
I think he started clowning because he was pissed off / unaccustomed to fighters not being scared of him and giving him the distance he needed to set up his striking. Anderson was used to a level of fear and respect from his opponents and Weidman gave him nothing. I still believe he could have won if he had not let his ego get the better of him.
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I don't think that Anderson could've won but we can just agree to disagree on that one.

I do agree, at least partly, with most of your post. It's important to note that Anderson hadn't lost in 7 1/2 years before that fight (8 1/2 if you don't count the DQ loss to Okami). That was a streak of 17 straight victories. Also, in his fight prior to the first Weidman bout, he fought Stefan Bonnar and absolutely clowned him in a way no one would have thought was possible, even for Anderson.

So yeah some of it could've been him being unaccustomed to people not being intimidated and not giving him space, but it was also that he felt unbeatable at the time. He never thought for a second that his clowning would lead to that outcome, and he paid the price for it.
 
homo fagit

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Onetrickpony said:
I think he started clowning because he was pissed off / unaccustomed to fighters not being scared of him and giving him the distance he needed to set up his striking. Anderson was used to a level of fear and respect from his opponents and Weidman gave him nothing. I still believe he could have won if he had not let his ego get the better of him.
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How do you see Silva winning that?
 
ECC170

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He's just fought nothing but the best and got his chin cracked and never was right..Idc how good you are if your chin goes so does your longevity.. He's also never got Down right dominated other than the other night.. and to your point about beating that small Kelvin.. Kelvin gave the current champ all he wanted..Weidman was the undisputed champ that defended 3x.. that's better than 99% of the fight game so even though it's sad seeing him like this now..he def had a great career that isn't to be taken lightly.
 
KWingJitsu

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Meh. Everyone is 'overrated' once they start to lose. The Chris has a good skillset. His style is not age friendly.

When Khabib & Adesanya lose, they too will be "overrated".

Fans.
 
Sheepdog

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ECC170 said:
He's just fought nothing but the best and got his chin cracked and never was right..Idc how good you are if your chin goes so does your longevity.. He's also never got Down right dominated other than the other night.. and to your point about beating that small Kelvin.. Kelvin gave the current champ all he wanted..Weidman was the undisputed champ that defended 3x.. that's better than 99% of the fight game so even though it's sad seeing him like this now..he def had a great career that isn't to be taken lightly.
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Well, nobody is accusing him of being a bum. But you're going too far that he never got dominated - Rockhold fucked him silly. Edging a first round in a 5-round fight before being destroyed in the next 3 is still getting dominated. Kelvin is an incredible fighter to be able to beat true 185ers, but the two wrestlers he fought there (Hendriks - fellow 170er - and Tim Kennedy) are much smaller guys than Weidman. I won a lot of money on Weidman - it was a very advantageous matchup for him in terms of size and strength.

One thing I will give Weidman is that his propaganda game is strong.
 
Sheepdog

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KWingJitsu said:
Meh. Everyone is 'overrated' once they start to lose. The Chris has a good skillset. His style is not age friendly.

When Khabib & Adesanya lose, they too will be "overrated".

Fans.
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I've addressed this and it's just a juvenile reaction ignoring the actual facts and substance of my argument.

If I'm attacking Weidman, then I'm also defending Anderson, Vitor and Machida by pointing out that Weidman himself was already finished by the time he reached the age they were (actually much younger for two of them) when he fought them. To give Weidman so much credit for beating them, is to ignore their ages and pretend that they weren't on the slide. Machida would lose 3 of his next 4 after fighting Weidman, Vitor would also lose 3 of 4 and Anderson would win 2 of 6 - actually 1 of 6, because that Brunson fight was a robbery. They were old men and no longer in their primes like Weidman. You might not like certain facts, but they are still facts.

MMA fans often apply 'overrated' to old fighters who start losing. That's the problem. By pretending Weidman's legacy holds up to scrutiny, you're perpetuating the fallacy that age doesn't matter, when quite clearly it does.
 
Sheepdog

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Onetrickpony said:
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Yeah, this is going to get really ugly. Still making excuses and still delusional.

The scary part is the line "this extreme low will be part of my story and I will finish on top" - that really shows the refusal to face reality, like this is some Rocky movie. He's just not processing it. He's in uncharted territory as far as I can tell - Chuck was similar in losing 5/6 to end his UFC run, but he only got KOd in 4 of them. Even BJ only got TKOd twice. I doubt any lower-level fighter has been KOd in 5/6 and not been cut, so I'm going to wager he's got the worst KO run in UFC history. And Weidman was knocked down heavily in the Kelvin fight too.

I've noticed he has a lot of yes men not just in corner but in the media for some reason - I was listening to Brian Campbell earlier talk about how competitive Weidman was against Rockhold, for example, and as I've pointed out already in this thread, that's just simply not what happened. This whole 'he still looks good while getting KOd' is exactly what Chuck fanboys told themselves towards the end.
 
La Paix

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CreativeClassMauler said:
Yeah, this is going to get really ugly. Still making excuses and still delusional.

The scary part is the line "this extreme low will be part of my story and I will finish on top" - that really shows the refusal to face reality, like this is some Rocky movie. He's just not processing it. He's in uncharted territory as far as I can tell - Chuck was similar in losing 5/6 to end his UFC run, but he only got KOd in 4 of them. Even BJ only got TKOd twice. I doubt any lower-level fighter has been KOd in 5/6 and not been cut, so I'm going to wager he's got the worst KO run in UFC history. And Weidman was knocked down heavily in the Kelvin fight too.

I've noticed he has a lot of yes men not just in corner but in the media for some reason - I was listening to Brian Campbell earlier talk about how competitive Weidman was against Rockhold, for example, and as I've pointed out already in this thread, that's just simply not what happened. This whole 'he still looks good while getting KOd' is exactly what Chuck fanboys told themselves towards the end.
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Good to see somebody else acknowledge that Rockhold dished out a beating. Usually the Chris fans will say "it's was a close fight until Chris tried spinning shit...".
 
Sheepdog

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Kneeblock said:
Clever use of Turok.
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I genuinely think I might have been the first to make a specific thread about this during his original title run calling him Turok back in the dark U G days (before he lost to Rockhold and when I still thought he could challenge Jones), but I didn't come up with 'Turok' nor did I even invent putting a 2.0 etc. when referring to a fighter being a Turok. Pretty sure Brendan Schaub was the first guy in MMA circles that someone named Turok and everyone started using it.
 
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