General NATO member Turkey now openly fighting to protect Al-Qaeda/ISIS in Syria

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Sheepdog

Protecting America from excessive stool loitering
Dec 1, 2015
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So we (NATO+Australia) have always indirectly armed Al-Qaeda and ISIS by arming Saudi Arabia and Qatar who then arm them directly, or by arming 'moderate' jihadist groups who then merge into them.

We've also bombed Syrian army troops while they were fighting al-Qaeda/ISIS. And Turkey has long set up its own proxy forces, with obvious links to al-Qaeda/ISIS to fight Kurds/Assad.

But NATO members have obviously never directly sent their own troops in openly to die on behalf of al-Qaeda - until now.

Turkey is now in open warfare with Syria/Russia with casualties on both sides in Idlib. This is to protect Hayat Tahrir Al-Sham, which is just the rebranded al-Nusra, which is just the rebranded Al-Qaeda in the Levant, which was just the portion of ISIS (itself a rebrand of al-Qaeda in Iraq) that stayed loyal to al-Zawahiri rather than al-Baghdadi.

If you're ever part of a military alliance openly fighting alongside al-Qaeda/ISIS (even if still fighting them in other places) - the very organisation used to justify unlimited war powers after their 9/11 attacks - maybe it might finally be time to ask 'Hans, are we the baddies?'
 
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It is a very good thing they don't have any of the F-35s they ordered
 

Sheepdog

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I'll add that Turkey now does have a legit geostrategic concern in Idlib - the fighting is causing a refugee crisis.

But this is like a rapist having a rational reason for killing his victim - 'I only killed her because I didn't want to her to tell the cops'. Maybe if you hadn't tried to overthrow Syria's government by supporting Salafi terrorists in the first place, you wouldn't be in this mess.

These things usually lurch from one morally bankrupt rationalisation to the next. What people call 'necessary evils' are usually just a series of lies and actual evils built on top of each other. The ends justify the means - except the ends were evil in the first place and the means just got increasingly evil.
 

Sheepdog

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It is a very good thing they don't have any of the F-35s they ordered
They only lost the F-35s because they tried to act independently by buying Russian equipment, not because they support al-Qaeda. Erdogan did this because he suspected the US of being behind the coup against him.

We support their support of al-Qaeda - Pompeo has threatened new retaliation against Assad/Russia for fighting al-Qaeda too. We are on the same team in Western Syria and that team includes al-Qaeda.

Erdogan is an incredible dipshit though. He's pissed off everyone in some way. But his Trump card is that he has a lot of leverage on the Europeans because he can open the refugee floodgates on them from both Syria and Libya.
 
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They only lost the F-35s because they tried to act independently by buying Russian equipment, not because they support al-Qaeda. Erdogan did this because he suspected the US of being behind the coup against him.
I don't think they believe the Fethullah Gulen nonsense if that's what you're referring to.

Even if they do, buying Russian equipment was dumb and shortsighted. The Russians don't have a fighter jet that comes anywhere near the F-35 and likely never will.
 

kneeblock

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Apr 18, 2015
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"Just the rebranded..." is a pretty big stretch. The politics of these groups are pretty divergent, though there's overlap of some ideologies and even personnel. It's not much different than calling the mujahideen the Taliban, which couldn't be less accurate. Here's a bit more on Hayat Tahrir Al sham and Turkey.

Reviewing the Turkey–HTS Relationship

But end of the day, yes we are the bad guys.
 

Sheepdog

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I don't think they believe the Fethullah Gulen nonsense if that's what you're referring to.

Even if they do, buying Russian equipment was dumb and shortsighted. The Russians don't have a fighter jet that comes anywhere near the F-35 and likely never will.
Erdogan only barely stopped short of flat out accusing the US of being behind it and got ministers in his government to openly say it. It's been deliberately spread by him and is widely believed in Turkey.

More important than any Gulenists is the secularists in the military that he could see the US backing. I think Erdogan used the Gulenists as a scapegoat so as not to admit that opposition was far more entrenched in the state, which it was. I don't buy the conspiracy that Erdogan organized the coup himself. There's plenty of genuine opposition.

Fun fact a lot of people don't know: the 'Deep State' was originally a Turkish term for its supposed shadow goverment (and not without some reason, in the Turkish case). Conspiracy theorists in the US ripped it off the Turks.

Remember, I'm not saying the US was behind the coup but Erdogan seems to think it was.

Circular reasoning is appropriate here. If Erdogan didn't think the US was behind the coup attempt, why would he almost blow up his alliance with them, invite sanctions and lose the F-35s?

Erdogan is a fucking idiot with a massively delusional view of Turkish power though, and that should be taken into account when trying to work out why he does the stupid shit that he does.
 

Sheepdog

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Dec 1, 2015
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"Just the rebranded..." is a pretty big stretch. The politics of these groups are pretty divergent, though there's overlap of some ideologies and even personnel. It's not much different than calling the mujahideen the Taliban, which couldn't be less accurate. Here's a bit more on Hayat Tahrir Al sham and Turkey.

Reviewing the Turkey–HTS Relationship

But end of the day, yes we are the bad guys.
It's not a stretch at all. Just because you are foolishly buying into their attempts at rebranding, doesn't mean I'm the one making the stretch. Al-Qaeda and ISIS developed some strategic differences, but it was mainly about power and HTS is no different. Al-Baghdadi told al-Zawahiri to get fucked, al-Julani told al-Baghdadi to get fucked and now al-Julani pretends not to be friends with al-Zawahiri.

Yes, al-Qaeda publicly changed some of their rhetoric and claimed to be independent as part of the rebranding and to make Turkish support more palatable. But here's where the rubber meets the road:

High ranking member of al-Qaeda in Iraq (later ISIS): Abu Mohammad al-Julani

Leader of al-Qaeda in Syria (al-Nusra): Abu Mohammad al-Julani

Leader of Jabhat Fateh al-Sham: Abu Mohammad al-Julani

Leader of Hayat Tahrir al-Sham: Abu Mohammad al-Julani

So, let's cut the shit. It's still functionally al-Qaeda - it's claimed independence but never denounced al-Qaeda. It is comprised of a shit-ton of foreign extreme salafi jihadists whose end game is global jihad.

You aren't honestly falling for the rebranding efforts of al-Julani are you? You think he's had a change of heart?
 
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Erdogan only barely stopped short of flat out accusing the US of being behind it and got ministers in his government to openly say it. It's been deliberately spread by him and is widely believed in Turkey.
That depends on who you talk to. The educated know that Erdogan is full of shit and Gulen is being used as a scapegoat.

That said, the only Turks I've heard this from are Turks who were smart enough to leave the country, so of course my data set is a bit skewed. Regardless, the best I've got is taking their word for it, and multiple people have told me that the educated members of society don't believe the Gulen conspiracy for a second.

But Erdogan has never been about appealing to that class of people so that shouldn't come as a surprise.
 

Sheepdog

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That depends on who you talk to. The educated know that Erdogan is full of shit and Gulen is being used as a scapegoat.

That said, the only Turks I've heard this from are Turks who were smart enough to leave the country, so of course my data set is a bit skewed. Regardless, the best I've got is taking their word for it, and multiple people have told me that the educated members of society don't believe the Gulen conspiracy for a second.

But Erdogan has never been about appealing to that class of people so that shouldn't come as a surprise.
I also have Turkish friends that think Erdogan did it himself to consolidate power. I think that's nothing more than a crazy conspiracy theory. Thinking Erdogan could trick thousands of troops into a fake coup, when large segments of the army already legitimately hate him, is 9/11 truther territory.
 
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I also have Turkish friends that think Erdogan did it himself to consolidate power. I think that's nothing more than a crazy conspiracy theory. Thinking Erdogan could trick thousands of troops into a fake coup, when large segments of the army already legitimately hate him, is 9/11 truther territory.
From what I hear (and what seems reasonable), he's not particularly intelligent but is a very good public speaker. Multiple Turks have told me that he is the face but that his team of advisers is the brains.

To his credit he has been an incredibly successful populist with his religious bullshit.
 

Sheepdog

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From what I hear (and what seems reasonable), he's not particularly intelligent but is a very good public speaker. Multiple Turks have told me that he is the face but that his team of advisers is the brains.

To his credit he has been an incredibly successful populist with his religious bullshit.
We live in an age when being a retard is a feature not a bug for achieving political success. People think we're supposed to give credit to individual crazy populists when they're in power everywhere. It's just the new normal. If you're not on some level a legitimate dipshit, you won't be able to fake it with the dipshit electorate. They can sniff intelligence, and they don't like it.

I actually think Rodrigo Duterte is the both the craziest and smartest of all the right-wing populist nutbags, even though at first glance he seems like one of the dumbest. He has actually been pretty adept at belligerence mixed with diplomacy for a guy in a poor country caught between the two world superpowers. He's played them off against each other pretty well.
 

kneeblock

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It's not a stretch at all. Just because you are foolishly buying into their attempts at rebranding, doesn't mean I'm the one making the stretch. Al-Qaeda and ISIS developed some strategic differences, but it was mainly about power and HTS is no different. Al-Baghdadi told al-Zawahiri to get fucked, al-Julani told al-Baghdadi to get fucked and now al-Julani pretends not to be friends with al-Zawahiri.

Yes, al-Qaeda publicly changed some of their rhetoric and claimed to be independent as part of the rebranding and to make Turkish support more palatable. But here's where the rubber meets the road:

High ranking member of al-Qaeda in Iraq (later ISIS): Abu Mohammad al-Julani

Leader of al-Qaeda in Syria (al-Nusra): Abu Mohammad al-Julani

Leader of Jabhat Fateh al-Sham: Abu Mohammad al-Julani

Leader of Hayat Tahrir al-Sham: Abu Mohammad al-Julani

So, let's cut the shit. It's still functionally al-Qaeda - it's claimed independence but never denounced al-Qaeda. It is comprised of a shit-ton of foreign extreme salafi jihadists whose end game is global jihad.

You aren't honestly falling for the rebranding efforts of al-Julani are you? You think he's had a change of heart?
It's not about anyone's heart. It's about the politics on the ground. I'm frankly surprised you're falling for the western narrative of one jihad, many faces. Naming everyone Al qaeda is how Iraq and Afghanistan (and later Yemen) turned into the dumpster fires they are on NATO's watch. HTS is jockeying for political clout if/when the battles are over rather than simply being a militia or global movement.
 

Sheepdog

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It's not about anyone's heart. It's about the politics on the ground. I'm frankly surprised you're falling for the western narrative of one jihad, many faces. Naming everyone Al qaeda is how Iraq and Afghanistan (and later Yemen) turned into the dumpster fires they are on NATO's watch. HTS is jockeying for political clout if/when the battles are over rather than simply being a militia or global movement.
I'm not naming everyone al-Qaeda. I'm naming literal al-Qaeda al-Qaeda. You've twisted yourself into thinking that al-Julani is somehow leading a movement that is fundamentally different from the one he has always led. It's not. The multiple instances of re-branding al-Qaeda in Syria has gone through is just that, and it's clearly worked on you. Same leader. Same ideology. They've just had to re-brand to appear more palatable for a while. Like Blackwater changing its name to Xe Services and then Academi. It's still Erik Prince running the show and it's still al-Julani running the show.

Your point about naming everyone al-Qaeda is only half-true. There is al-Qaeda in Iraq, in Afghanistan, and Yemen. That's not made up. What's made up is the threat that they pose to the American people. What is made up is that the Taliban is interchangeable with al-Qaeda/ISIS. What's made up is that they ever had any connection to Saddam Hussein, or Iran or any of that other nonsense used to justify expanding wars. But what is not made up is that HTS is fundamentally just a name change from al-Qaeda in Syria.
 

BeardOfKnowledge

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Jul 22, 2015
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What's made up is the threat that they pose to the American people. What is made up is that the Taliban is interchangeable with al-Qaeda/ISIS. What's made up is that they ever had any connection to Saddam Hussein, or Iran or any of that other nonsense used to justify expanding wars.
You're kind of ignoring 9/11 and the whole trying to buy WMD's thing.
 

Sheepdog

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While still less likely than likely, war between Turkey and Russia over this is increasingly likely. Reports that Turkish artillery just targeted the area around a Russian base.
 
M

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While still less likely than likely, war between Turkey and Russia over this is increasingly likely. Reports that Turkish artillery just targeted the area around a Russian base.
Proof that Erdogan has no plan. Or he overestimates his own military. Or he's planning in triggering Article 5 in the unlikely event that Russia attacks Turkey (which it won't, because Article 5).
 

Sheepdog

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Proof that Erdogan has no plan. Or he overestimates his own military. Or he's planning in triggering Article 5 in the unlikely event that Russia attacks Turkey (which it won't, because Article 5).
Erdogan is an idiot strategically but it's probably more likely that Russia blinks if Turkey full-on attacks Assad's forces. Russia doesn't want war with Turkey over Assad. If Turkish troops start pouring into Idlib to fight Assad, Russia would probably negotiate a settlement that would stop the current Assad offensive.
 

Sheepdog

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It's crazy how close the world is to being sucked into a major conflict between NATO and Russia in order to protect radical Islamic terrorists, and barely anyone is even aware of it. If you handed that script in to a movie studio, it would be tossed out as ridiculously far-fetched.

It's still more likely that a settlement will be reached, but with Turkish troops now dying regularly and Russia seemingly not backing down, it's a more realistic scenario than people think.
 

megatherium

el rey del mambo
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Lest We Forget – Hillary Clinton: We Must Destroy Syria For israel

https://uprootedpalestinians.wordpress.c...or-israel/


A leaked Hillary Clinton email confirms that the Obama administration, with Hillary at the helm, orchestrated a civil war in Syria to benefit Israel.

The new Wikileaks release shows the then Secretary of State ordering a war in Syria in order to overthrow the government and oust President Assad, claiming it was the “best way to help Israel”.

Newobserveronline.com reports:

The document was one of many unclassified by the US Department of State under case number F-2014-20439, Doc No. C05794498, following the uproar over Clinton’s private email server kept at her house while she served as Secretary of State from 2009 to 2013.

Although the Wikileaks transcript dates the email as December 31, 2000, this is an error on their part, as the contents of the email (in particular the reference to May 2012 talks between Iran and the west over its nuclear program in Istanbul) show that the email was in fact sent on December 31, 2012.

The email makes it clear that it has been US policy from the very beginning to violently overthrow the Syrian government—and specifically to do this because it is in Israel’s interests


“The best way to help Israel deal with Iran’s growing nuclear capability is to help the people of Syria overthrow the regime of Bashar Assad,” Clinton forthrightly starts off by saying.

Even though all US intelligence reports had long dismissed Iran’s “atom bomb” program as a hoax (a conclusion supported by the International Atomic Energy Agency), Clinton continues to use these lies to “justify” destroying Syria in the name of Israel.

She specifically links Iran’s mythical atom bomb program to Syria because, she says, Iran’s “atom bomb” program threatens Israel’s “monopoly” on nuclear weapons in the Middle East.

If Iran were to acquire a nuclear weapon, Clinton asserts, this would allow Syria (and other “adversaries of Israel” such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt) to “go nuclear as well,” all of which would threaten Israel’s interests.

Therefore, Clinton, says, Syria has to be destroyed.

Iran’s nuclear program and Syria’s civil war may seem unconnected, but they are. What Israeli military leaders really worry about — but cannot talk about — is losing their nuclear monopoly.

An Iranian nuclear weapons capability would not only end that nuclear monopoly but could also prompt other adversaries, like Saudi Arabia and Egypt, to go nuclear as well. The result would be a precarious nuclear balance in which Israel could not respond to provocations with conventional military strikes on Syria and Lebanon, as it can today.

If Iran were to reach the threshold of a nuclear weapons state, Tehran would find it much easier to call on its allies in Syria and Hezbollah to strike Israel, knowing that its nuclear weapons would serve as a deterrent to Israel responding against Iran itself.

It is, Clinton continues, the “strategic relationship between Iran and the regime of Bashar Assad in Syria” that makes it possible for Iran to undermine Israel’s security.

This would not come about through a “direct attack,” Clinton admits, because “in the thirty years of hostility between Iran and Israel” this has never occurred, but through its alleged “proxies.”

The end of the Assad regime would end this dangerous alliance. Israel’s leadership understands well why defeating Assad is now in its interests.

Bringing down Assad would not only be a massive boon to Israel’s security, it would also ease Israel’s understandable fear of losing its nuclear monopoly.

Then, Israel and the United States might be able to develop a common view of when the Iranian program is so dangerous that military action could be warranted.

Clinton goes on to asset that directly threatening Bashar Assad “and his family” with violence is the “right thing” to do:

In short, the White House can ease the tension that has developed with Israel over Iran by doing the right thing in Syria.

With his life and his family at risk, only the threat or use of force will change the Syrian dictator Bashar Assad’s mind.

The email proves—as if any more proof was needed—that the US government has been the main sponsor of the growth of terrorism in the Middle East, and all in order to “protect” Israel.

It is also a sobering thought to consider that the “refugee” crisis which currently threatens to destroy Europe, was directly sparked off by this US government action as well, insofar as there are any genuine refugees fleeing the civil war in Syria.

n addition, over 250,000 people have been killed in the Syrian conflict, which has spread to Iraq—all thanks to Clinton and the Obama administration backing the “rebels” and stoking the fires of war in Syria.

The real and disturbing possibility that a psychopath like Clinton—whose policy has inflicted death and misery upon millions of people—could become the next president of America is the most deeply shocking thought of all.

Clinton’s public assertion that, if elected president, she would “take the relationship with Israel to the next level,” would definitively mark her, and Israel, as the enemy of not just some Arab states in the Middle East, but of all peace-loving people on earth.