King Mo: Punk proved himself a fighter at UFC 203

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Wild

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"My silver lining is, [Punk is] a fighter. Here's why I say this. Any normal man would've tapped when he's getting beat up like that, and would've quit," Lawal said Monday on The MMA Hour.

"Man, he didn't quit. He was getting pummeled, he got put in every bad position, he was flattened out getting hit. And you know what? He kept on trying. There are people, there are vets, there's some champions out there who'll tap to strikes. But you know what, he kept he fighting and got submitted. So I can give him that. He went out there to win. He tried. That's all you can ask. Next time he'll do better."

King Mo: Punk proved himself a fighter at UFC 203
 

Silverball

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It was a bad stylistic match-up against a guy who is younger and more athletic, and it took place on the biggest stage in MMA. All things considered, it could've been much worse. I think Punk would do better in his next fight against a non-grappler, in an organization other than the UFC.
 

Porkchop

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How is it quitting to tap to strikes but not quitting to tap to a choke where the worst case scenario is you gently go to sleep if you can't fight out of it?

Just curious.

Holly Holm must be tougher than all of them because she fought until she was asleep. Never gave up.

With an armlock or leglock, you get a pass to tap in my opinion because a broken arm or leg cause set your career back for months, years, or even end it. But a rear naked choke? Totally different.

And hey, I'm not against tapping. But to hear that Punk is a fighter for not giving up is a bit silly. He gave up against the technique that would cause him the least amount of harm if he just kept fighting to get out and failed.
 
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La Paix

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It was a bad stylistic match-up against a guy who is younger and more athletic, and it took place on the biggest stage in MMA. All things considered, it could've been much worse. I think Punk would do better in his next fight against a non-grappler, in an organization other than the UFC.
I agree he would do better with a hand picked opponent from an org with presumably weaker fighters ;)
 

BeardOfKnowledge

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How is it quitting to tap to strokes but not quitting to tap to a choke where the worst case scenario is you gently go to sleep if you can't fight out of it?

Just curious.

Holly Holm must be tougher than all of them because she fought until she was asleep. Never gave up.

With an armlock or leglock, you get a pass to tap in my opinion because a broken arm or leg cause set your career back for months, years, or even end it. But a rear naked choke? Totally different.

And hey, I'm not against tapping. But to hear that Punk is a fighter for not giving up is a bit silly. He gave up against the technique that would cause him the least amount of harm if he just kept fighting to get out and failed.

If you're caught in a choke, you know it. Same as you do a joint lock so I understand tapping. Having said that, losing by Technical Submission is the ultimate badge of superior toughness.
 

Porkchop

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If you're caught in a choke, you know it. Same as you do a joint lock so I understand tapping. Having said that, losing by Technical Submission is the ultimate badge of superior toughness.
*first comment removed because it was apparently too distracting from the point*

Anyone who has done bjj knows that defense, but the reason people tap in training is that it isn't practical or sensible to go unconscious every time someone has you in a bad spot. In a fight though.... I don't get how that is more acceptable than tapping to strikes.

Also, there is a way to apply the rear naked choke with the forearm across the trachea where it feels like your throat will be crushed and there is nothing wrong with tapping to that. Or when it is over the lower jaw and it's a crank that will break your jaw. But when the elbow is under the chin and you are only at risk of going to sleep..... I don't get how tapping to that is any better than tapping to strikes. Knowing you are in a bad spot or not, if your worst case scenario is a nap, there is no reason to stop fighting to get free.

But hey, if King Mo wants to congratulate Punk for tapping to the choke, good for him. But he'd have more respect if he fought the choke and went to sleep.
 
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BeardOfKnowledge

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But fighting out of a rear naked choke isn't hard. You just peel the top hand, trap it, then work onthe other arm.
In theory, yes. In reality, there's a reason why it's far and away the most common submission.

Anyone who has done bjj knows that defense, but the reason people tap in training is that it isn't practical or sensible to go unconscious every time someone has you in a bad spot.
In a sport scenario (like an MMA fight) the same logic applies. "I'm caught, I'm not getting out, I'll tap." He repeatedly performed the defense you're talking about, but eventually was caught by a better grappler.

I don't get how that is more acceptable than tapping to strikes.
The way it's been explained to me is that if you're taking a striking beatdown the ref will step in. If you tap to strikes you're quitting before you're actually out of the fight.
 

Porkchop

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In theory, yes. In reality, there's a reason why it's far and away the most common submission.
I think it's the most common because it's the kind of submission that even to be in a position to go for someone's neck, even if you don't get the choke right away, it's hard for them to fight out of the position and get away. If you don't get an armbar, it's likely that the fight goes back to closed guard or a scramble happens. The rear naked choke comes from a position of strong control over your opponent and so you have a long time to get the choke. It's rare that there is a struggle for an armbar or a guillotine or a leglock. Usually it's quick and relatively by surprise. I think a lot of guys when they are getting beat on and positionally dominated to the point that a rear naked choke is available, it's an easy way out of the fight when fighting out of a choke and a back mount is a huge task.

Surviving the choke isn't the hard part. I think the hard part and why it is a common finish in MMA is that positionally it's hard to get out of a back mount. The person attacking can try for the same attack for an entire round so the percentage of finishes by rear naked choke is naturally higher than other submissions. No one has ever said that if you have the back mount to not bother trying for the choke because "position over submission". That's because you don't have to risk giving up the position in searching for the finish and most other submissions you try and fail and then lose the position, so it's less desirable to even try for those submissions.


In a sport scenario (like an MMA fight) the same logic applies. "I'm caught, I'm not getting out, I'll tap." He repeatedly performed the defense you're talking about, but eventually was caught by a better grappler.
I honestly don't think the same logic does apply. When it's a fight scenario, your career could be on the line. Certainly potentially doubling your paycheck is on the line. Also, your pride and your brand is on the line as a competitor. In training, it doesn't matter how many times you tap.

I think the scenarios are so vastly different that there is no way the same logic could apply. If you say to yourself "I'm not getting out, I'll tap" to a choke that just puts you to sleep... I think that is way less tough than tapping to strikes. It's pure quitting.

He repeated the defence but it doesn't matter because he quit in the end. He wanted a way out.

Now, for CM Punk, the smart thing to do was to quit because he was only going to take more of a beating and because he doesn't belong in there, but I don't think he deserves credibility for quitting by the most harmless method possible to lose by in an MMA fight as opposed to tapping to strikes...


The way it's been explained to me is that if you're taking a striking beatdown the ref will step in.
If you go unconscious in any way the ref will step in. If you get choked out, the ref will step in. It's not like when it comes to rear naked chokes it is tap or die. The short term and long term damage is way worse with taking a beatdown of strikes rather than going to sleep fighting to free yourself from a choke.

If you tap to strikes you're quitting before you're actually out of the fight.
And if you tap to a choke you are quitting before you are actually out of a fight. That's the whole point of what I'm saying. But the risk of taking 3 or 4 extra punches when you are out cold before the ref steps in is way worse.

I have no problem with fighters tapping whenever they feel they need to tap, my point is that there is this idea in fighting that it's somehow honourable to take the greatest beating possible even if your equilibrium is fucked, if you have a broken skull, or if you simply get hit in and out of consciousness a few times, but there is nothing wrong with giving up on fighting to free yourself from a rear naked choke. As someone who has done years of jiu jitsu and years of striking arts, the way the logic works out for me is that it's way more of a pussy move to give up fighting for a choke. It's the easy way out when the worst that can happen is that you go to sleep.

And I'm not calling any fighters pussies for tapping to chokes, but logically it makes no sense to say that it's okay to give up when the worst case scenario is sleep vs when the worst case scenario is serious brain damage. I am not a hard headed guy and am open to the opinions of others, but I honestly don't see how I can be convinced otherwise about that. I can't see any argument the other way that makes any sense.

If anyone does disagree though, I am happy to hear alternative points of view.
 
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Buff Bagginz

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King Mo one of the intelligent few who realize that a guy like Punk will raise everyones profile rather than be a hater.
 

Porkchop

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If only Carlos Condit knew this defense......
Funny you missed the entire point.

I'm shocked that rather than address the point of what I was saying, someone would come by and take one line out of context...... *sarcasm* <---- no room for subtlety when dealing with some...

The point is that if Carlos tapped to strikes he would be called a pussy but tapping to that rear naked choke from Maia somehow is completely free from criticism. That's due to this ridiculous misconception that punches to the face are always worth eating until your brain shuts off but it's just fine to give up on defending a rear naked choke.

As much as I love MMA... So many of the fans are driven mostly by their bravado and have no idea what is really the smarter way to fight. Usually due to most of them not training, but even some people in the gym never figure that out.

Again, as for Carlos, going to sleep is not the end of the world. He could have fought harder to defend but he decided to tap. That's fine by me. Tapping is not the end of the world either. It's not my decision and I'm not criticising him. You are just missing the point completely or trolling.
 
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Porkchop

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Porkchop @Porkchop needs to go train people how to defend against the choke. Caio Terra didn't do a good enough job for Condit it seems.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qqpEUVzv1Y


If you really want to harp on that one comment, be my guest and tell me how hard it looks like Carlos fought to get out of that choke. Even in the thumbnail he is grabbing the wrong arm..... Did Caio Terra teach him that? Doubtful.

He was mentally broken before that choke was even sunk in. That's my theory on that particular fight.

But that's aside from the point I was trying to make earlier. I'm not going to argue over every rear naked choke in history. If you want to talk about what the conversation was about earlier, then I'll be fine to talk about it, otherwise I'm not too interested in going off track.
 
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Kingtony87

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The problem is that you don't come on to a mma forum and start claiming ludacris shit like rnc's are easy to get out of. Especially given that it is the most successful submission in mma year by year. By a fairly large margin.


It's akin to saying why didn't be stop the take down, all he had to do was side step, or why was Conor running, stand and wang man. Or can't believe Robbie got knocked out, It's so easy to slip to the right.

While clearly you have some knowledge in tma's, you know enough to be dangerous and ignorant with it.
 

Royce Nelson

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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qqpEUVzv1Y


If you really want to harp on that one comment, be my guest and tell me how hard it looks like Carlos fought to get out of that choke. Even in the thumbnail he is grabbing the wrong arm..... Did Caio Terra teach him that? Doubtful.

He was mentally broken before that choke was even sunk in. That's my theory on that particular fight.

But that's aside from the point I was trying to make earlier. I'm not going to argue over every rear naked choke in history. If you want to talk about what the conversation was about earlier, then I'll be fine to talk about it, otherwise I'm not too interested in going off track.
Ok buddy.
 

wiz

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Wasn't Mickey Gall training for about 8 years or some shit? He said it on Ariel's show. IF so, Lol at people giving Punk shit for losing to a guy training over 4 times as long as he did, who is also 13 years younger.
 

Porkchop

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The problem is that you don't come on to a mma forum and start claiming ludacris shit like rnc's are easy to get out of. Especially given that it is the most successful submission in mma year by year. By a fairly large margin.


It's akin to saying why didn't be stop the take down, all he had to do was side step, or why was Conor running, stand and wang man. Or can't believe Robbie got knocked out, It's so easy to slip to the right.

While clearly you have some knowledge in tma's, you know enough to be dangerous and ignorant with it.
Speaking of ignorance, you apparently want to ignore the point of the thread and the posts I was making before. You are derailing the thread.

I wrote about 10 paragraphs and you are obsessing over ONE sentence that really has nothing to do with the conversation that was going on.

That's ignorance.

The whole reason I said it is easy to defend is tp point out that guys who tap are quitting when escape is entirely still possible and the worst case scenario is sleep. It's beond obvious at this point that you don't care what the point of the conversation is though.

And again, the reason the rnc is successful is because of the positioning. When guys rock their opponent, 90% of the time what submission do they go for when they follow their opponent to the ground? That's right, the rnc. They do that because it comes with dominant positioning and they can fight for the choke for the remainder of the round.

But hey, if you want to obsess over one thing I said ( that I removed from my comment because apparently it's triggered a couple of people too hard and they can't get over it ) then obsess over that comment.

The point is, King Mo's comment was a stupid comment as it's not a pussy move to tap to strikes, it makes more sense to tap to strikes than to tap to a rnc. Deal with it and get over that one comment if you can.
 
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