Universal Basic Income

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Leigh

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Jan 26, 2015
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interesting point but it's quite sweeping as well, the changes to how welfare would work in these scenarios may be make or break for the system as a whole. From the other side, giving people money and then seeing them squander it could also create an even worse stigma for those in bad situations, but i try to look at the positives, most DO want to work, most DO want to contribute to society, be it through volunteering etc but are held back due to financial restraints and lack of incentive to go above and beyond. It's a vicious cycle, but the system especially in the UK is broken, and i believe UBI can be a force for good.
It's not sweeping at all and to think so is naïve. I agree that most people want to work and want to be responsible. Some aren't. The people this is designed to help (the most vulnerable) will suffer.
 

Team Bisping

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It's not sweeping at all and to think so is naïve. I agree that most people want to work and want to be responsible. Some aren't. The people this is designed to help (the most vulnerable) will suffer.
I meant your comment was sweeping, as in generalising
 

Team Bisping

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I understood what you meant but I disagree. I didn't say all low income people. My statements were factual.
Ah okies, no worries, i don't believe i'm being naive, just looking at the bigger picture, whilst your view is narrowed in on a minority of the population and their issues. All valid points, i have my concerns with UBI also. I believe a few countries are trailing it within limited areas, so it'd be interesting what reports will say. Though it's not a given that an initiative that can work in a nordic country would work similarly in UK or USA. etc
 

Leigh

Engineer
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Jan 26, 2015
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Ah okies, no worries, i don't believe i'm being naive, just looking at the bigger picture, whilst your view is narrowed in on a minority of the population and their issues. All valid points, i have my concerns with UBI also. I believe a few countries are trailing it within limited areas, so it'd be interesting what reports will say. Though it's not a given that an initiative that can work in a nordic country would work similarly in UK or USA. etc
I see the idea as a benefit to the lowest income people but I think it will actually be a handicap. Take benefits away from people with no experience managing a budget and give them a budget instead.

I'm also very interested to see how it goes.
 

Team Bisping

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I see the idea as a benefit to the lowest income people but I think it will actually be a handicap. Take benefits away from people with no experience managing a budget and give them a budget instead.

I'm also very interested to see how it goes.
There are many on housing benefit, if we removed that and gave them cash, would rent be paid? this is a worrying thought
 

kneeblock

Drapetomaniac
Apr 18, 2015
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I see the idea as a benefit to the lowest income people but I think it will actually be a handicap. Take benefits away from people with no experience managing a budget and give them a budget instead.

I'm also very interested to see how it goes.
This is the nut of what troubles me.

My opinion is that UBI shouldn't be a replacement for the social safety net, but a supplement to it. My biggest problem is that several proponents of it are using it as a mirage for their own small government agenda because they think it will lead to the dissolution of the welfare state and just act as a small redistributive tool to do away with what they feel is the real problem of government spending.

But of course keeping even a limited means tested program in place alongside UBI dramatically increases the size of government and comes with a hefty price tag and ongoing liability a government would have to hedge against its other programs. The pace of wealth generation would almost certainly slow in this case as UBI would get politicized alongside the state’s other ambitions and the wealthiest would likely use their clout to pressure other interests to compromise.

Education in financial management and training for new skills would add to the cost and the bureaucracy. The only way all of these caveats get dealt with is either some sort of societal total mobilization (to address war, the impacts of climate change or, optimistically, a real space colonization program) or a move to a more centrally planned economy. In either case, there are plenty of downsides.
 

Leigh

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Jan 26, 2015
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This is the nut of what troubles me.

My opinion is that UBI shouldn't be a replacement for the social safety net, but a supplement to it. My biggest problem is that several proponents of it are using it as a mirage for their own small government agenda because they think it will lead to the dissolution of the welfare state and just act as a small redistributive tool to do away with what they feel is the real problem of government spending.

But of course keeping even a limited means tested program in place alongside UBI dramatically increases the size of government and comes with a hefty price tag and ongoing liability a government would have to hedge against its other programs. The pace of wealth generation would almost certainly slow in this case as UBI would get politicized alongside the state’s other ambitions and the wealthiest would likely use their clout to pressure other interests to compromise.

Education in financial management and training for new skills would add to the cost and the bureaucracy. The only way all of these caveats get dealt with is either some sort of societal total mobilization (to address war, the impacts of climate change or, optimistically, a real space colonization program) or a move to a more centrally planned economy. In either case, there are plenty of downsides.
UBI alongside welfare isn't really worth considering.
 

Zeph

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Jan 22, 2015
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Wouldn't the answer be to have people who don't have a fixed address be switched onto a housing benefits and food stamp program, to ensure they live at a certain level with help from a social worker? The program would be much smaller and cheaper to run than anything currently, and then once a social worker recommends they are fit to leave the program they switch back.

All it would take is small teams which look for the homeless, the police to file a report when/if they interact with an individual, and hospitals to do something similar. I think the amount of people that would not pay for a place to live and food to eat is being vastly overestimated.
 
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kneeblock

Drapetomaniac
Apr 18, 2015
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Wouldn't the answer be to have people who don't have a fixed address be switched onto a housing benefits and food stamp program, to ensure they live at a certain level with help from a social worker? The program would be much smaller and cheaper to run than anything currently, and then once a social worker recommends they are fit to leave the program they switch back.

All it would take is small teams which look for the homeless, the police to file a report when/if they interact with an individual, and hospitals to do something similar. I think the amount of people that would not pay for for a place to live and food to eat is being vastly overestimated.
This is exactly how it works now, at least in New York.
 

BrunoMcGyver

Bruno no dey carry last
Dec 30, 2015
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There's a lot of interesting research that says production isn't the only thing at risk, which is where the discussion becomes very interesting.

Here are the finance jobs most likely to be impacted by robots
I'm a tax accountant and the 'preparation' aspect of our work (the part of inputting data in tax returns etc) is at huge risk of being either automated or being outsourced to places like India.

Part of why I'm trying to get knowledge in different areas of tax beyond that part of my job, and also part of why I'm also think of getting a Training and Assessment qualification under my belt, so I can branch out and train others in the basics of my profession.

Also part of why I'm a tightarse who wants to invest as much of my money as I can.

Gotta stay ahead of the game.
 

Leigh

Engineer
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Jan 26, 2015
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Wouldn't the answer be to have people who don't have a fixed address be switched onto a housing benefits and food stamp program, to ensure they live at a certain level with help from a social worker? The program would be much smaller and cheaper to run than anything currently, and then once a social worker recommends they are fit to leave the program they switch back.

All it would take is small teams which look for the homeless, the police to file a report when/if they interact with an individual, and hospitals to do something similar. I think the amount of people that would not pay for a place to live and food to eat is being vastly overestimated.
Well, that might work. But consider the point then that everyone would get a UBI payment except the most vulnerable.

"We're introducing UBI. Everyone will now get money, including the 1% :)

Except homeless people. They stay on housing benefits and food stamps."
 

Zeph

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Jan 22, 2015
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Well, that might work. But consider the point then that everyone would get a UBI payment except the most vulnerable.

"We're introducing UBI. Everyone will now get money, including the 1% :)

Except homeless people. They stay on housing benefits and food stamps."
Initially everyone would. Obviously there would be a grace period to allow everyone to get on their feet. Maybe have the program just work with helping people find somewhere to rent at first.
 

kneeblock

Drapetomaniac
Apr 18, 2015
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I wanted to resurrect this thread because UBI has been picking up some steam among the corporate class:

Mark Zuckerberg Calls for Universal Basic Income in Harvard Speech

And people are paying close attention to government
trials: FINLAND: First Results from Pilot Study? Not Exactly | Basic Income News

I've had my qualms with the idea, but the embrace of it by the likes of Zuckerberg and Musk has made me more deeply uneasy. It seems in a way that by embracing this idea we are foreclosing the possibility of political and economic solutions to inequality and permanently embracing a culture where our value is determined by our consumption. Bread and circuses for the 21st century.

The counterpoint to this is that such a system could potentially prevent any person from going hungry, which in and of itself satisfies a basic moral function of society. I'd wager we're still at least 10 years from seeing meaningful policy to start such a program, but wealthy municipalities and states are likely to develop more pilots in the interim.
 

otaku1

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Jul 16, 2015
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Lol
Yes, I lol because you see, i like history and I'm old enough to remember communism, which used just that.

UBI is just another utopia with a different name that existed under communism.
Nothing new here.
Nothing revolutionary at all.

Communism helped some country in the beginning but it failed badly in the end. Economically it needs coercion to be remotely effective.
There is no perfect system but capitalism, moderate, is the best alternative.

I have Russian and Romanian friends old enough to remember the communist days with universal income. They lived it.
Lol
No one wants to go back there. No one.

Captain obvious signing off.
 

Splinty

Shake 'em off
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
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My biggest problem is that several proponents of it are using it as a mirage for their own small government agenda because they think it will lead to the dissolution of the welfare state and just act as a small redistributive tool to do away with what they feel is the real problem of government spending.

This is my only real interest and Universal basic income. Well not the doing away with it... you can convince me to keep it. But not keep both.

Lower overhead, less administration, less policing....

If you're simply looking to keep the existing inefficient bureaucratic abused administrative state, then you're simply looking for me to hand out more cash without any sort of pretense?

And with that, I go from being somebody you could compromise with, to somebody that will simply be against it.
 

IschKabibble

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Jan 15, 2015
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Fucking sign me up.

As someone who's paid about 20% of everything I've ever earned, and have yet to get anything back for it, I should qualify as first ballot recipient, yeah?
 

Ted Williams' head

It's freezing in here!
Sep 23, 2015
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It seems like a lot of people (mostly liberals, but I'm not trying to make this political) are thriving to make things as easy as possible for everyone. Universal basic income, free university, safe spaces, etc, because they believe that's the key to happiness. I disagree wholeheartedly. I believe that struggling and adversity is something we need as human beings, and in the absence of these we become soft and generally unhappy. Making things too easy stunts emotional and mental growth and stops people from reaching their full potential. Whenever you read the backstory of some uber successful person, it always comes with trials, tribulations, hardships, and failures. Yet now we're conditioned to think it's cold blooded to allow someone to *gasp* struggle.

TLDR: Get off your ass and make your own way, stop sucking off the government tit.
 

Wintermute

Putin is gay
Apr 24, 2015
5,816
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It seems like a lot of people (mostly liberals, but I'm not trying to make this political) are thriving to make things as easy as possible for everyone. Universal basic income, free university, safe spaces, etc, because they believe that's the key to happiness. I disagree wholeheartedly. I believe that struggling and adversity is something we need as human beings, and in the absence of these we become soft and generally unhappy. Making things too easy stunts emotional and mental growth and stops people from reaching their full potential. Whenever you read the backstory of some uber successful person, it always comes with trials, tribulations, hardships, and failures. Yet now we're conditioned to think it's cold blooded to allow someone to *gasp* struggle.

TLDR: Get off your ass and make your own way, stop sucking off the government tit.
Totally agree.

Hard times create strong men.
Strong men create good times.
Good times create weak men.
Weak men create hard times
 

Sweets

All Around Dumbass
Feb 9, 2015
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Yous are all talking about low income people and the effect of existing welfare on recipients making them complacent. The problem is that once automation and AI kick in, lawyers, Doctors (maybe barring surgeons) Accountants, Programmers engineers and many more traditionally middle class positions are all GONE, DONE, FINITO, FUCKED that's a fact, so you'd would want to shift your paradigm to figuring out his those people will be employed, rather than harping on the old class divide paradigm.
 

Yossarian

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Oct 25, 2015
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Yous are all talking about low income people and the effect of existing welfare on recipients making them complacent. The problem is that once automation and AI kick in, lawyers, Doctors (maybe barring surgeons) Accountants, Programmers engineers and many more traditionally middle class positions are all GONE, DONE, FINITO, FUCKED that's a fact, so you'd would want to shift your paradigm to figuring out his those people will be employed, rather than harping on the old class divide paradigm.
Exactly. I know it is better to make your own way, and use the right to make as much money as you are able. But what if there is no resource to do so? Any given robot will take over the job of not 1 but countless of people, that robot will not need a car, or vacation, or healthcare, but neither will those lost positions create tax refenue, unless regulated to do so. Automation is going to reach much further than simply factory jobs. UBI will be a solution and part of the problem at the same time. We would have to rely on the profits of the anew production efficiency to go towards such a program, because income taxes will no longer be what they are, if not, they will be increased dramatically.