Discussion in 'Cageside - MMA Discussion' started by Wild, Jun 17, 2018.
Was just joking around, a warning might have been more appropriate imo but ok
Checking kicks is 100 percent a skill, have you ever trained in Muay Thai? That shit is hard as hell to time and do right. Leg kicks in general i agree are a very skill maneuver. There is a reason only some guys can end fights with leg kicks.
that's the heel hook argument launched out of the ground.
there is no other strike in use which can cause irreparable damage to a limb in quite the same way.
the goal of a fighter in mma, as i understand it, is to cause as much short term damage (or risk of damage, in submissions) needed to bring an end to the fight.
it is inherently dangerous and there is always a chance to cause long term damage without meaning to.
when you throw that side-kick and try to bend it backwards, the logical conclusion is long term damage - so that is a full-on attempt to cause a long-term injury.
marlon kicking jimmie's head off the other day is risky. but if you land a full power head kick, it's a big risk for the opponent, but the result is not automatically a long term injury.
that is what sets them aside, in my view.
to my knowledge, Wonderboy is the only person who has ever claimed direct injury from the technique. And no one can say how weak his MCL was from years of karate/TKD style kicking.
And even his injury is a long way from "career-ending".
The prohibition of groin shots has absolutely nothing in common with stop kicks. Groin shots are generally prohibited because they jeopardize someone's reproductive health, which isn't in any way connected to their offensive ability in a fight unless we're saying heavier balls improve control in north/south. Being able to advance on a forward leg is directly related to fighting and preventing that advance is a valid countering strategy. If we limit that countering to roundhouse kicks then we force fighters to overcommit in ways that may not favor their personal style. The premise of the stop kick is immobilizing a body part to prevent it from being weaponized, which is pretty much the goal of all submissions. The groin has no weaponization attributes, at least not behind a cup. Comparing the two as viable targets doesn't add up.
rampage and a certain middleweight champion of the world have both been hit by these kicks, imperfectly, and been injured. i know for a fact rampage needed surgery and rob has complained vociferously about it, and the whole situation fucked a title match.
wonderboy can help the sport to avoid really serious, deliberately caused injuries in future. he, and those two, did not get hit with properly executed a knee-bending-backwards kick, but all three are not happy bunnies.
if this continues or gets more prevalent, as it threatens to, several fighters per year will - at best - be sitting out with injuries, or - at worst - will be suffering from a bad leg-break that will cause them pain for life.
this is a kick to throw in self-defence or if you really need to cripple someone. not a shot to throw at a sportsman.
Stick to glorified sparring matches if you wish to complain about being a sportsman. It's a fight, as it should be, shit happens.
that's the wording of the rules bro. need any help, i'll be around to clarify.
Mixed martial arts rules - Wikipedia
But do we keep side kicks to the thigh legal?
We may be getting into a similar discussion to the "definition of downed opponent" (when it comes to knee strikes to an opponent's head) controversy.
maybe not a serious question, but i think any kick to the leg which has the effect of jarring the knee straight or bending it backwards should be punishable with immediate disqualification. and a load of licensing grief.
economics will decide this- if too many highly marketable fighters get sidelined due to this strike then it will be banned, if the victims are people who were on their way out or "safe" fighters then place your bets the other way.
It was a serious question. If we keep kicks to the thigh legal while outlawing kicks to the knee, I think there will be a lot more bullshit disqualifications and controversial stoppages.
LOL these opinions
SJW movement has made its way to Combat Sports
you're kidding me.
Noted. Apologies for taking it the wrong way & will remove the pink.
Sure, stop kicks 'immobilize a body part to prevent it from being weaponized', and a groin shot can immoblize someone's entire body and stop it from being weaponized. When you punch someone in the chin, you aren't aiming to prevent their chin from being 'weaponized'. So I can immediately dismiss your argument the same way others have tried to dismiss mine - why not ban strikes to the chin if the only rule is that you can target 'weapons'? Why are small joint manipulation subs illegal? A broken finger or toe is a hell of a lot less severe than a torn ACL and that targets a 'weapon'?
The reason, is that there are no clear demarcations here - you can't find an objective reason for why oblique kicks shouldn't be banned any more than one exists for why rabbit punches should be banned. What you can do, however, is make a reasoned case that just like rabbit punches, the risk of serious injury oblique kicks entails far outweighs what they add to the sport.
Of course groin strikes should be illegal. As should rabbit punches. As should deliberate strikes to the spine. As should small joint manipulation What you, and others in this thread, have failed to do is provide any logical argument for why oblique kicks can't be policed the same way. It doesn't make you wrong either - but what it means is that we are always making a judgement call on where we draw the line and many are acting as if I and others who are using sound arguments for why they cross that line are being ridiculous. I would bet my life savings ($4.80) that if oblique kicks were already illegal, and I made a thread asking for them to be made legal, a large number of the people vociferously defending them would be arguing the other way.
I’m far extreme of SJW. I just hate seeing guys knees get wrecked.
You're kidding yourself
ok Thatcher disciple guy, the only thing in life is money
it'sthis sort of mind-numbing post which prevents any reasonable discussion here.
haha touchy. we're debating the rules here. and you start talking economics. i will post sarcastically under circumstances like this. sorry. sorryish.
It may open up some instances of bullshit reffing, but it would be very rare. We aren't saying that regular kicks that hit near/on the knee should be banned - it's very easy to tell the difference between this legit leg kick by a known oblique kick 'offender':
But I'm saying what about push kicks to the thigh?
Same style as your second gif but just a few inches up, where they can cause a bit less damage
You realize I just recycled your initial contribution to the discussion, right?
You realize money factors in greatly to the discussion, right?
This seems clear to me but feel free to disagree, if I'm wrong then so be it.
Yes, that could cause problems. A push thigh kick is also running the risk of hitting the balls too and isn't exactly a damage technique. It would probably just make guys not use them very often.