General About Free will and determinism
- Thread starter Toelocku
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Great thread, I ponder this all the time. Even wrote some screenplays basically about these 2 seemingly opposing ways of seeing life.
I think I see where
@Toelocku is going in tha OP... basically ask yourself, even if we do have 'free will', what % of our lives in the end is a result of it, and what % is a result of a bazillion other outside forces that we have no influence on whatsoever?
A leaf floating down a river can twitch and spin all it wants and thinks it has free will, while doesn't even realize he is on a river that has its own course for a 1000 years and doesn't give a shit about the leaf, lol
IMO there is more steering us than we are able to steer ourselves.
If you take these ideas further, it gets into another illogical concept, which is trying to separate 'you' from your environment. ie; if we have free will, it means we are somehow total individuals, isolated beings that can impose our will on the world 'out there'... there is a clear implied difference between the free will of the individual, and the outside world upon which he acts. However try to distinguish that line, lol it's tricky! Even simple breathing we are taking in what is outside, absorbing the air itself into our cells. It all starts blending into a singular field pretty fast imo once you start looking at it
On the other hand guys like Crowley are not wrong that when a human puts his mind and will to something, he can achieve great things and indeed steer his own boat! (even if he makes a mess lol) I've seen it and done it, its weird. I personally prefer to drift on the currents of the universe, but have felt a few times where I imposed my will and fuck it works lol or seems to
Sometimes I wonder if they are somehow not as polarized as they seem, that perhaps they are 2 sides of a same coin, working at the same time. For instance imagine a scenario where we reincarnate in a Buddhist sort of fashion. Lets say between lives you examine your successes and failures, and map out a plan for your next life accordingly. You plan your peaks and pitfalls, tests and pleasures etc... then dive in to be reborn. So as you live it, it FEELS like your choices, you are being honest with what your soul desires. But at the same time you are following a path. Like a hero character in a book or something. The hero is still a great hero, it doesn't diminish his character by knowing that the last page has already been written.
This is trippy stuff, lol thanks
@Toelocku
I think I see where
@Toelocku is going in tha OP... basically ask yourself, even if we do have 'free will', what % of our lives in the end is a result of it, and what % is a result of a bazillion other outside forces that we have no influence on whatsoever?A leaf floating down a river can twitch and spin all it wants and thinks it has free will, while doesn't even realize he is on a river that has its own course for a 1000 years and doesn't give a shit about the leaf, lol
IMO there is more steering us than we are able to steer ourselves.
If you take these ideas further, it gets into another illogical concept, which is trying to separate 'you' from your environment. ie; if we have free will, it means we are somehow total individuals, isolated beings that can impose our will on the world 'out there'... there is a clear implied difference between the free will of the individual, and the outside world upon which he acts. However try to distinguish that line, lol it's tricky! Even simple breathing we are taking in what is outside, absorbing the air itself into our cells. It all starts blending into a singular field pretty fast imo once you start looking at it
On the other hand guys like Crowley are not wrong that when a human puts his mind and will to something, he can achieve great things and indeed steer his own boat! (even if he makes a mess lol) I've seen it and done it, its weird. I personally prefer to drift on the currents of the universe, but have felt a few times where I imposed my will and fuck it works lol or seems to
Sometimes I wonder if they are somehow not as polarized as they seem, that perhaps they are 2 sides of a same coin, working at the same time. For instance imagine a scenario where we reincarnate in a Buddhist sort of fashion. Lets say between lives you examine your successes and failures, and map out a plan for your next life accordingly. You plan your peaks and pitfalls, tests and pleasures etc... then dive in to be reborn. So as you live it, it FEELS like your choices, you are being honest with what your soul desires. But at the same time you are following a path. Like a hero character in a book or something. The hero is still a great hero, it doesn't diminish his character by knowing that the last page has already been written.
This is trippy stuff, lol thanks
@Toelocku
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It's a great escape if you want to blame others for your actions.
Determinism has some merit, but like anything it also has some very glaring problems when you sit down and look at it.
Agency, from a sociological context, means the power, and volition, of a single individual, or group, to change the world. Or at least influence it. And the belief of him or her, to make reality a possibility of them to do so!
Such as
The concept omits completely that people will react differently to identical situations even when the factors that lead to the circumstances are the same. Now, if someone wants to make the argument that some obscure early life detail that the 2 individuals didn't share is what made the difference I could entertain it, but at that point it's actually compatabilsm.
Determinism in its most failed form takes credit for things that people would do 10 times out of 10 just because they're rational not because invisible forces determined it. Ie: If your house is engulfed in a 4 alarm blaze you're going to evacuate because you value your life.
Interstingly most determinists I've met are also fairly staunch atheists and use determinism much the way staunch theists will declare something is "God's plan".
No two people even identical twins have exact same circumstances so your example isn't possible
What's reality is circumstantial determinism meaning all of the preceding events that have happened to you have formed you into what you are and the choices you'll make
If you follow that chain of causation back it goes to a singularity
Exactly, it's dependent on going back far enough to find something that you believe to have caused it. It's blind faith and confirmation bias in their purist forms.
Ummm NO...its scientifically and reality-based if we had a rewind button for the causal chain you could literally show this happening
Determinism is demonstrable
We do have a rewind button. Turns out the triggers aren't always the same.
Not really. If it were, we wouldn't have murderers and rapists.
The triggers are inconsequential determinism would be true regardless of trigger
Being a murderer or rapist has nothing to do with whether determinism is a fact
So determinism dictates that certain outcomes are caused by a particular set of circumstances, but you don't believe a trigger is of any consequence to an action?
It actually does. If determinism is demonstrable we should be able to determine that factors that create murderers and rapists. We can look back in people's history and figure out what needs to be avoided in the future.
"So determinism dictates that certain outcomes are caused by a particular set of circumstances, but you don't believe a trigger is of any consequence to an action?"
Not a certain number of outcomes but ONE particular set predetermined at the singularity
"It actually does. If determinism is demonstrable we should be able to determine that factors that create murderers and rapists. We can look back in people's history and figure out what needs to be avoided in the future."
We can do that up to a point but im not denying we make conscious choices just that those choices are not free from causation they are predetermined by circumstances from chemical imbalances, childhood trauma, and a million other things all of which are as I said demonstrable
Not a certain number of outcomes but ONE particular set predetermined at the singularity
"It actually does. If determinism is demonstrable we should be able to determine that factors that create murderers and rapists. We can look back in people's history and figure out what needs to be avoided in the future."
We can do that up to a point but im not denying we make conscious choices just that those choices are not free from causation they are predetermined by circumstances from chemical imbalances, childhood trauma, and a million other things all of which are as I said demonstrable
Determinism states that we don't make any conscious choices.
You're saying that choices are informed by past experience, which is "free will".
You are arguing philosophy against a guy who literally joined a cult.you might as well be shoveling sand against the ocean
No...
de·ter·min·ism
/dəˈtərməˌnizəm/
Learn to pronounce
noun
PHILOSOPHY
- the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions
We have a will but it is not free it is subject to the causal chain
Hes arguing nonsense and since this is to high iq for u watch this...
View: https://youtu.be/OwaXqep-bpk
You should probably ask Merriam-Webster what "will" is.
Determinism precludes conscious choices.
Weak deflection but it helps my argument
will1
/wil,wəl/
verb
- 1.
expressing the future tense.
- 2.
****expressing inevitable events****
We have a crude understanding of these dictates, but they are being honed down.
Relying on a definition of our limited understanding that is getting better all the time seems flawed.
So we don't make conscious choices?
I agree with this...i always say irl this is the best answer FOR NOW
Recalibrating is constantly in order