General Do other countries pay their prisoners?

[Splinty]

I wouldn't mind prisoners low pay if a portion went to commissary and the products they made were solely for public use like school supplies. Nearly all NY state desks and chairs in schools are made by prisoners, or at least they were when I was growing up. But today prisons enter into contracts with corporations to have prisoners make things for them which they then sell. That's little better than slavery.

I get the nuance but spell it out for me...
Doesn't the fungible nature of currency result in the same input to the public good as using those prisoners to create products directly?

 

[kneeblock]

I get the nuance but spell it out for me...
Doesn't the fungible nature of currency result in the same input to the public good as using those prisoners to create products directly?

I don't understand this statement.

 

[Splinty]

I don't understand this statement.

If you're okay with prisoners working directly for the state, what is the difference between that and the state outsourcing that labor instead of getting into the business of creating things directly?
In the end the same input or greater comes to the public good from the prisoner's output.

Spell out the difference between the outsourcing to a desk manufacturerand creating the desk directly.

Does the middleman make it unethical if the same public good comes from the labor?

 

[kneeblock]

In the end the same input or greater comes to the public good from the prisoner's output.

This is the part of your statement I don't understand. Please elaborate a bit more.

 

[Splinty]

This is the part of your statement I don't understand. Please elaborate a bit more.

My prisoners make 1,000 school desks
Government is in the business of making desks. You're okay with this.

I outsource my prisoners labor for a bunch of money and get 1001 desk worth of money. I go purchase 1001 desks. Government is not in the business of making desks. You're not okay with this.

I'm asking you to unpack the specifics of why that is.

some would say that because currency is fungible youre simply moving that prisoner labor into a vessel and then using that purchasing power to transfer that labor into public needs more efficiently.

You disagree. It seems the middleman is the Crux and I'm just simply asking you to spell it out for me on where that line in the sand comes from.

 

[member 1013]

lox and bagels and bagels and lox, I like being a girrrrllll

 

[BeardOfKnowledge]

That's little better than slavery.

Sorry, but no. That's an absolutely horrendous analogy.

 

[kneeblock]

My prisoners make 1,000 school desks
Government is in the business of making desks. You're okay with this.

I outsource my prisoners labor for a bunch of money and get 1001 desk worth of money. I go purchase 1001 desks. Government is not in the business of making desks. You're not okay with this.

I'm asking you to unpack the specifics of why that is.

some would say that because currency is fungible youre simply moving that prisoner labor into a vessel and then using that purchasing power to transfer that labor into public needs more efficiently.

You disagree. It seems the middleman is the Crux and I'm just simply asking you to spell it out for me on where that line in the sand comes from.

I'm still struggling to understand your meaning here. Prisons do not purchase desks with profits they make from prisoner labor for companies like McDonald's, Victoria's Secret, and Whole Foods. Those proceeds go back into local Departments of Corrections or in the case of private prisons, they go directly to the corporation that owns them for shareholder benefits. The companies' interest is cutting their cost of labor below even what they would normally pay for outsourced labor overseas. There isn't some budgetary shortfall being made up for by the profits of this labor elsewhere in the state because state budgets are siloed and subject to allocations that can't be dependent on market conditions. My contention originally was that prison labor for direct public good was at least of general utility to the society which made some of the labor at least understandable, but of course you know I ultimately believe workers should own their means of production and so no one should commit any of their labor on behalf of any enterprise.

If I'm now understanding your question more clearly, which I might still not be, then you're saying there is a unified pot where the money ends up, but in modern state budgeting, and especially in the prison system, which relies on a host of private subcontractors, the idea of fungibility itself is not quite applicable. Usually it's an economic theory that's only invoked when people are justifying austerity measures or playing budget games.