It is a logical fallacy when you take my statement of "would he have the same level of success" to an unintended extreme of "no leg locks in PRIDE". Just sayin'........
And if u missed it, this thread is about the ruleset and not Ryan.........
Does RYAN HALL Have the Same Success with SOCCER KICKS???
- Thread starter Haulport
- Start date
And if u missed it, this thread is about the ruleset and not Ryan.........
allowing kicks doesn't change anything for a guy at Ryan Hall's level. It didn't change anything for lots of guys with slick leg lock games in PRIDE, and that was before the "leg-lock revolution" in BJJ.
The End. slow-scroll credits (that's my department)
There's just not a statistically viable way to kick someone in the head during an Imanari-roll. That's the entry he uses against standing opponents. Even if he misses, you're rolling the incredibly improbable chance of landing a kick AND the the low probability that it would land hard enough and in the right spot to cause injury. Worse, you're taking those odds against the 99.98% certainty that if it doesn't you're going to be on the ground with Ryan Hall wrapped around your legs.
The best bet against an Imanari roll is to do what Joachim Hansen did against Imanari - kick him in the head on when he starts to change levels. But that's always the best way to beat a grappler. Or anyone really.
I did a walk-off head kick in HS.
I respecfully disagree that it changes nothing. It is an additional weapon and having and additional weapon for a high-level fighter, particularly one where you don't have to bend over to execute it, will make things harder for any grappler. I would bet that Ryan would agree with me. Too bad he's not on tmmac. I don't think he does a podcast. I wonder if he is on social media much?
has the situation you're describing ever happened against an elite level grappler in rules that allow grounded kicks/stomps?
Don't the time to investigate but the reality of different rulesets is that things DON'T happen because the competitors are aware of the limitations of techniques under certain rulesets. A great example is what John Danaher spoke about recently with Lex Fridman (look up the Lex Clip where Danaher talks about what he wants to change in bjj). He describes how very high level bjj guys have to totally revamp their game because in bjj no one is trying to stand up. They just play guard and so holding them down is not part of the training until they look to get into mma. Much like great footwork can stymie takedowns to the point that they aren't even attempted and fans scream "why didn't he even try to take him down!" When someone who knows what to look for can see exactly why. These are like "invisible" adjustments because nothing overtly happens.
i watch almost all of Lex's podcasts, and I know the one you're talking about.
Doesn't apply to Ryan Hall or his leglock game.
doesn't even really apply to leglocks, because even in grappling one of the best defenses to foot/ankle locks is to stand up.
I feel your black and white view of this issue is myopic. Strategic weapons in use by high level MMArtists are going to change the way things play out. Period. It is the inevitable consequence of different rulesets. For example: UFC and MMA competitors in general now focus far far less on bjj as they do wrestling and boxing because the rules penalize a fighter who is on his back. "Grappling/Ground Control" in the rules and the success of many 2000's LnP wrestlers turned mma into a mostly standup affair that includes a good deal of takedown and TD defense work. Very different from the early days of Royce working guard and Sakuraba chaining subs. Just the way that in most bjj tourneys takedown defense isn't something anyone even thinks about because there is no particular rule advantage to incentivize it for the most part.
it's just that I haven't seen any evidence of evolution in the idea of "I'll just stomp his head or kick him".
Ryan Hall has the same leg lock game base as several other guys who competed where you could kick them in the head or stomp their skull.
it never happened.
show me where someone landed a successful strike against an Imanari roll. Of any type. Ever.
If you want to say that MMA is all Stand-n-Wang, then you should address the most common way to get to the leg-lock from standing against a striking opponent - the Imanari roll.
Again, the lack of players using an Imanari Roll in PRIDE is a result of the ruleset (also the lack of popularity at the time is a big confound to any meta analysis). It is an "invisible" impact of being able to freely use your legs in close combat with a grounded opponent. Much like the lack of take downs in a fight against a fighter who has great footwork and excellent control of distance...
Now how do we categorize this?
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL151qC155o
A soccer kick ko from the guy DOING an Imanari Roll.................................................
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL151qC155o
A soccer kick ko from the guy DOING an Imanari Roll.................................................
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Here is Marcin Held getting almost illegally knee-KO'd in the UFC from a sorta soccer kick (a littler more Hellboy-esque though).
I would hazard a guess that most fighters would be very wary of that kind of knee under The Unified Rules because it can just as easily end up a DQ loss.
I would hazard a guess that most fighters would be very wary of that kind of knee under The Unified Rules because it can just as easily end up a DQ loss.
not disrespecting Marcin to say that Marcin's entry looked nothing like Ryan or Imanari on their entry.
I never saw anyone get close to kneeing Imanari, but it might have happened...he fought a long time. But all of those techniques work against double-legs, single-legs, etc...any attempt to grab a leg. Why do you think Ryan Hall's entry is particularly susceptible to getting drilled? I don't get what makes his entry so risky outside of unified rules, and all the other ways to grab someone by the legs so legit.
I don't believe Ryan's entry is particularly susceptible. I believe it is reduced by the same amount of effectiveness that takedowns are, under rulesets that allow soccer kicks and stomps. If you miss or your opponent is faster on the draw as you go for their legs you will pay a price under that ruleset that is not present under the Unified Rules...
SK's, stomps and grounded knees change everything...
And on the reverse, if you look at the Pico/Lee fight it lasts maybe 2 mins with grounded knees. Aaron was able to easily move around Lee on the ground and could have murdered him with grounded knees with the kind of dominance and body control he displayed...
grounded knees to the head change everything. They make guys move on the bottom of control. They limit options. They end fights.
but head kicks/stomps to grounded opponents has been done.
Guys with elite leg lock games were still doing elite leg lock game things...
Do u have some examples? I would like to watch the fights.
