Unbeatable on the Floor: The Joe Malenko Interview
Part One of Two: The Development of a Wrestling Icon
By William Colosimo | wcolosimo@yahoo.com
Jody Simon- better known in wrestling circles by the ring name “Joe Malenko”- is a professional wrestler who holds the distinction of training the longest consecutive period of time with Karl (Istaz) Gotch.
Jody, an extremely credible grappler of unquestionable lineage, takes us through some key moments in his development and career in this interview. In addition, he is able to provide valuable insight on not only Karl Gotch’s thought process, but also the methods Gotch used to reshape professional wrestling in Japan.
William Colosimo: To start, take us into the mind of Karl Gotch, meaning- what was his personality, and why do you think his world view was the way it was?
Joe Malenko: Well, like all of us, Karl was a complicated man who experienced a lot of things growing up that set the tone for him when he became an older man. It starts with a mom who was hard on him and very controlling and domineering, and a dad who was somewhat aloof but supported him in everything and anything he did. He was around his grandmother a lot. His grandmother was Italian; she was the warm, comfortable place for him to kind of fall on, on occasion when he was a young man. And so he always had this warm spot in his heart for anybody who had Italian blood running through their veins. Then he grew up in a really tough era, and he grew up in a really tough area. According to Karl, the docks of Flanders, in Belgium, where he grew up, were tough and kind of tested the mettle of men, back then even as a young man. So, from the beginning of his growth into manhood he had to learn how to take care of himself, how to handle himself on the streets, how to handle himself on the mat- because he started wrestling at a fairly young age. And that molded him into what he was. And what he was, was a guy who got into the sport of wrestling with a vengeance from the time he was a young man. He obviously made his way through the ranks in Belgium as an amateur, and then of course the war (Editor’s Note: World War II) took hold, so he would have been… so he was born in ’23, I think? Do you know?
Colosimo: I can pull that up. I know it was right around there, he’s right around my dad’s age.
Malenko: Yeah, I think he was ten years older than my dad (Larry Simon, aka Boris Malenko), my dad was born in ’33. And later on of course, they became the best of friends. That’s me skipping around.
Colosimo: 1924. August 3rd, 1924.
Malenko: Okay, so ’24. So, by the time the war rolled around, he was a young man, a scrappy young man. He got put in to a… he didn’t get put in a concentration camp, he got put into a work camp. But obviously those weren’t the Ritz-Carlton, nor were they a comfortable place to deal in, and to rest your head at night. He had a lot of issues, and one of his biggest issues during those times was of course his ability to train, his ability to stay in any kind of shape, and even to get food was a tough, tough deal for him in the camps. And he recounted some stories that I’ll leave lie, but basically that kept it going for some severe hardship in his life, and it also set the tone for an appreciation of things when he became an older man. One of the things that I knew about Karl, from the beginning that I sat with him to have a meal, was this was a man who appreciated food more than (laughter) anybody I’ve ever met in my entire life. I could literally sit and watch him eat- which sounds kind of strange- but you just knew that he was… it was almost a God like moment for him when he would eat, because it brought him back to the days where he didn’t have food, and he would almost have to kill somebody to get a scrap of food. And so, all that set the tone for who he was going to become. He was a man’s man, he was a very hard man, and he was a focused man, because in the early time of his life he had to focus on survival, and he changed that focus on over to wrestling, and eventually the art of “hooking”- or submission style wrestling (Editor’s Note: Hooking refers to the ability to catch an opponent in a submission hold. Wrestlers at the upper echelon of skill, who had strong abilities to catch other wrestlers- or challengers in general- in submission holds were referred to as hookers). So, it created this guy who had a lot of moxie. Because that’s the only way you survived.
Colosimo: From what I understand, Karl wrestled both freestyle and Greco-Roman in the 1948 Olympics for Belgium…
Malenko: Correct.
Colosimo: …then he turned pro a couple of years later I think. Who were Karl’s main instructors of submission holds?
Malenko: I think Karl dabbled when he was a young man, but when Karl dabbled- his dabbling was more “How do you protect yourself on the streets?” So a lot of his submissions, a lot of what he did, came out of him learning to fight his way through life on the streets of the wharfs around Belgium where he was working as a smithy. He wielded a hammer on steel to form things for the ships, and help with riggings on the ships back then. In fact that’s one of the things that happened- he lost his pinky finger- he was supposedly trying to help some guy, he was trying to save somebody who got caught up, and he got his finger caught, and literally tore it off. And so he was always missing that pinky finger, which made it rough for him to grab onto things, which made him work that much harder to have significant strength to do all the things he did. And, um… where was I headed?
Colosimo: We were looking for if he had any set, main trainers for submissions.
Malenko: Well, his main training for submissions started when he made his way to England, and he started under people in the Snake Pit at the time- Wigan. When Wigan was in its highlight of guys- (Billy) Riley, and all those crew who were the toughest of the toughest in England at the time (Editor’s Note: The Snake Pit was a nickname given to Billy Riley’s wrestling gym, which was located in Wigan- a town in Greater Manchester, England). Who were really doing catch style wrestling, and had kind of taken over the mantle from what was in the U.S. many, many years before, but it had kind of filtered out in the U.S. So Karl would always say that it was the Americans who were the best at this, but it died out here. And so when he had to learn the craft, the only place he had to go was in Wigan. Of course there were some really… Billy Riley, and guys that he talked about constantly were, in his eyes, phenomenal. Taught him the ropes, kicked his ass at times, and eventually he made his way to a point where he became what he became.
Colosimo: I assume that Frank Gotch was probably a huge influence on him.
Malenko: No, not really. I mean he talked about all the guys who came up in the days through the States in the early 20th century, on back into the 19th century- obviously Gotch and (George) Hackenschmidt and all those folks who, a lot of which were carnival guys who were fighting people in the carnival for a few bucks, and taking on all comers. And they were some of the toughest of the toughest. One of the greatest pictures he ever had was with Ed “Strangler” Lewis. Lewis was already in the latter part of his life, he was blind at that time. And Karl always said that Lewis couldn’t see him, but Lewis could feel his chest and he said “You know, you must have something special,” because you could feel how thick his chest was. Multiple stories from Karl.
But here’s the thing about Gotch: Karl’s mentorship was really a self-mentorship more than it was any one person making him who he was. The amazing thing about Gotch was- and this goes back to that singularity of focus, this ability to take something and live it twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week- I don’t think I ever saw Karl where he wasn’t sitting, thinking about how he could do something a little different. How to change up a hold, how he could deal with a defense on something that threw a monkey wrench into the way that he was trying to submit somebody, and how he could create a throw and make it easier. And then on top of that he had to figure out not just how he could do it, but how could he teach it? Because you’re dealing with students, and he was a teacher from the time he started. But his goal was always to figure out how to take things that he knew, and help you through the process of learning them, and your subtle nuances, and how your body was, and how you felt comfortable doing things- he would have to adapt and adjust what he was teaching you to you, so that you could do things in the best possible way. Karl lived and breathed it- day in, day out. Almost to the point where it was “My God Karl, you might want to think about something else in your life. There’s got to be more to life than this.” But there wasn’t.
So when people say “Well, where did he learn?” The basics for all this came from the waterfront, and learning not to get his ass handed to him. And then at the Snake Pit in Wigan, learning how to initialize his role as a hooker and learning shoot moves and doing what he did there- submission style. But then, beyond that it was all Karl. It’s not to say that he didn’t pick up here and there from a variety of people, but his fine tuning of stuff was beyond belief.
Colosimo: While you’re on the topic of Karl always trying to improve himself- as I interviewed Masa Funaki and Minoru Suzuki (Editor’s Note: Via my much appreciated interpreters), both of them revealed to me that obviously they trained under (Yoshiaki) Fujiwara and Gotch, but they both learned leg submissions from other places- it seems like they both go back to Victor Koga, a gentleman who was from sambo and introduced a lot of leg submissions into the shoot style that Karl already introduced in Japan (Editor’s Note: Suzuki learned the kneebar directly from Koga. Funaki learned sambo techniques from the instructional book “This is Sambo!” by Satoru Sayama and Koga. The book contains a number of leg lock techniques). So, how many leg locks were in Karl’s system before Victor Koga introduced many leg submissions into the shoot style taking place in Japan?
Malenko: I can’t give you specifics, or numbers, or percentages, of any one person doing this more than the other person, I just know… I started with Karl in 1972. And in 1972, there wasn’t any single way that you can turn, where he couldn’t get a leg, or he couldn’t get an arm, or he couldn’t submit you with some kind of crank on your neck.
The funny thing is, as I look back I always laugh at the fact that we really didn’t even have names for half of the things that we did. Nobody talked about a “Kimura,” that was after the fact when… there’s sort of this folklore that Karl- and real or unreal, I’m not sure- but there’s sort of this urban legend that Karl taught (Masahiko) Kimura the double wristlock, and eventually the double wristlock became the Kimura (Editor’s Note: Jody is hinting at the famous Masahiko Kimura versus Helio Gracie grappling match from 1951, in which Gracie was caught in a joint lock called ude garami, or double wristlock. Some in the Brazilian jiu-jitsu world began to call the move the Kimura after this point, in honor of Kimura). It all originated with Karl. Not that the double wristlock originated with Karl, but the fine tuning of it did.
So as far as legs went, I’ve watched a lot of people on the mat, and I’ve never seen anybody do anything with the legs that I didn’t see Karl do back in the early ‘70s. And past that when as a kid I used to watch him workout, before I even started training with him. So, I’m not sure that he didn’t have the ammo to do everything that anybody else did, and maybe they just didn’t spend the time with him? ‘Cause here’s the other thing about Gotch: he touched a lot of lives, and a lot of those lives that he touched will claim- and I’m not saying that Funaki and Suzuki didn’t train with him- the time that he spent with a lot of people was nominal in comparison to the time he spent with people that I knew, because we all lived here in Tampa (Florida). I mean, he was my next door neighbor for years. I saw him and trained with him every single day, without exception- I don’t care if I was freaking dying- for seven years. So, I always laugh at the fact that I run into people that say “Yeah, I worked out with Karl,” “I train with Karl,” and I’m like “Well, when were you there?” Or I would even ask Karl “You know I just ran into this guy, he said you’re training him” and Karl would be like “I don’t even know who you’re talking about.” Or “Yeah, he stopped in- wanted me to show him a couple things.” So getting back to Karl being more or less proficient in a variety of submissions on the legs, I can’t tell you with certainty that that is or is not the case, but I can tell you with certainty that I don’t know of anything that he didn’t know when it came to figuring out a way to (submit someone) with a variety of ankle locks and toe holds.
Colosimo: Jody, you had mentioned how back then there weren’t a lot of names for things- and even Karl’s style in general- is there a set name for it? Catch-as-catch-can, Gotch style- is there any name for his wrestling?
Malenko: We just said we were submission style wrestlers back then. You were a hooker- and of course you always kinda laughed when you said that if you’re out and about, because the minute you said you were a hooker everybody’s trying to give you a couple bucks. But we were hookers, we were submission style guys. We didn't really talk about being catch wrestlers. I mean sambo was obviously out there already, but not as advanced in the overall cadre of moves that Karl had in his valise. So, that’s who we were. Bill if you would have asked us, if you would have asked me what I was doing, I would have told you- “I wrestle. I’m a wrestler.” I just happen to use submissions when I wrestle. Now when I started, there were very few people doing this. And on rare occasions, Karl would bring somebody in- Japanese guys would come over to visit or whatever, and I’d get a chance to train with them on the mat- but there were very few other guys doing submission style wrestling. Nobody. Nobody, really. And at the time, nobody was mixing in any of the other art forms, because it just wasn’t done. I mean to my knowledge, the first thing that happened in Japan was that Sayama brought in Muay Thai.
Colosimo: You’re going exactly where I wanted to go. From what I understand, the original “Tiger Mask,” Satoru Sayama, he was one of Karl’s students, who eventually gravitated towards kicking- like you said, the Muay Thai. He also had a relationship with the sambo player Victor Koga, who I mentioned earlier- they wrote a book together. What were Karl’s thoughts on Sayama developing his striking and submissions in addition to what Karl may or may not have taught? Did Karl give you any thoughts on that, and Sayama going and developing Shooto? (Editor’s Note: Satoru Sayama was a pro-wrestler and Karl Gotch protégé that took on the Tiger Mask persona- Tiger Mask being the titular character of a popular manga- while working for New Japan Pro-Wrestling. Sayama left both New Japan and Tiger Mask to join the original UWF, the Universal Wrestling Federation. He eventually left the UWF- and pro-wrestling altogether- behind to develop Shooto, the first mixed martial arts league in Japan)
Malenko: Karl was very much a traditionalist. And when I say that, traditionalist in his way of viewing the art form that he was best at, which was submission style wrestling. And it started standing up. This idea- your ground game being your only game- that’s a Brazilian jiu-jitsu deal, and it was never a Karl Gotch deal. You stand up, and then eventually you make your way to the mat. And then Karl would of course always say “The bulls get killed on the floor,” so everything really does happen downstairs. But that was who Karl was. Karl was that guy. So anything else that was introduced, it was a little bit far afield from where Gotch kind of viewed the sport, yet he also understood that there needed to be other things brought in for purposes of drawing a crowd. Because he did understand professional wrestling- he was also a professional wrestler. So, he understood that you needed those things that were gonna get people to go “Ooh! Ohh! Ooh!” And you could do that with submission, and you could do that with certain throws when you start up top, and you make your way down to the floor. But, to get kicked- especially if you’re wearing a (shin) pad, you get that sound, then all of a sudden somebody in the back of the auditorium cringes, and gets everybody feeling good. So, I don’t know if he liked it, but he accepted it. What he didn’t accept was where it all eventually went. Because in his eyes-
Colosimo: The no holds barred. The early UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship), you mean?
Malenko: Yeah. In his eyes, it all went into the shitter (laughter).
Colosimo: So let’s go a few years ahead while we’re on the same topic- what did Karl think of Pancrase, once that started? Was it similar to Shooto- where it’s getting watered down ‘cause of the striking?
Malenko: I think he looked at certain aspects of it favorably, and other parts of it not favorably. I think when you started getting into the striking stuff, especially when people started slapping- you got a lot of things that he looked at, and he just didn’t accept. But it was part of the bigger picture, and he was okay with the bigger picture. I mean he named Pancrase.
Colosimo: Since I talked to you last, I found that footage- I don’t know if I told you.
Malenko: Yeah, you did.
Colosimo: Yeah- from March of ’92 where he said “Pancrase,” the exact same way they say it for the company. They didn't tweak it from “Pankration” or anything.
Malenko: Nope, and that was his naming of the company at the time. That came from him and he told me it came from him, when it all happened. He was very fond of Fujiwara…
Colosimo: Funaki and Suzuki sought out Karl’s guidance when they were developing the Pancrase organization. Do you know what Karl hoped Pancrase might achieve?
Malenko: He wanted to take pro-wrestling and move it on back to what he viewed as the real sport of it, which incorporated a lot of the things that he learned through the years- training in Wigan, and dealing with all the different hookers that he dealt with here in the United States. And so, it was his remembrance of the history of wrestling that gave him this distaste for what wrestling had become- so, a major effort of his was to try and pull it back to something that was a hell of a lot more credible.
Colosimo: Fujiwara started I think the same year you did- ’72.
Malenko: Yeah, probably around there.
Colosimo: I know you trained seven straight years- Fujiwara trained maybe longer, but intermittently ‘cause Karl had to go on three month visas.
Malenko: Well look, I never- let’s get it straight- I never stopped training. As long as I knew Karl, I never stopped training. If I would come over and we would have a drink, inevitably we were gonna be either on the ground or standing up, and he was gonna be showing me something. And this goes to something Karl said all the time as well, which he probably would take credit for, but I’m sure other people have said it- “You stop learning, you die.” So, I was being trained by Karl Gotch ‘til the time that Karl was in a coma and he was seeing the end of his life. If you were a student of Karl and you were ever around him, he was gonna teach you something. It was either how to maneuver something a little different, how to change up something, how to do something you’ve never even thought about doing or seen before, or sort of more a bigger picture life lesson.
So, many years passed, and Karl wasn’t the kind of guy to look at you and say how great you were or anything like that, he just didn’t do that. And I’m sitting at his house, and two things came up- one is, after I got there he said something to me, and then he just looked at me and said “You know, I’m very proud of you.” And that was the first time he had said that since I was fourteen years old, and at that point in time I was whatever, fifty (laughter). So, first time in my life that he ever said that to me. And then we started talking, and he said “So, I have a question for you.” I’m like “Huh?” He said “When you were coming into your own, do you think you could have beaten me?” And I said “I don’t know- but I would have never tried.” ‘Cause I always had so much respect, that I would have pulled back from ever trying to really go whole hog at him.
Colosimo: So the two of you from ’72 to ’79- you never sparred on the ground at a full one hundred percent?
Malenko: Well no, I did until- and this is kind of a questionable thing, because I don’t want this to come across sounding like I thought I could beat Karl Gotch- but the point being is, I viewed him so strongly as my mentor, and my coach, and my second dad, that I would have never gone past that point with him where I would have really gone full bore, when I got to a certain point in my life when I started kind of feelin’ my oats a little bit. Whether or not I could have ever bested him at any time- who the hell knows. Maybe, maybe not- it doesn’t matter. There’s a bigger point in all of this, and it’s not whether or not I could have beaten Karl at any given point. It’s that he instilled so much respect from his students, that you viewed him as this teacher, and you would never cross over the line with your teacher. And I’m bringing that up because there wasn’t just wrestling, it was life lessons. And so, when we were sittin’ there and he was saying that- he was telling me how proud he was- I said to him “I have to let you know that it wasn’t just on the mat that you gave me whatever you gave me, it was my life. It was everything that I’ve done since then.” It was my ability to stay focused, to stay true to myself, to be the right kind of man when I was dealing with certain people. It went to the core of everything you are as a person. And that’s what wrestling does for you, if you’re really in the sport- but Karl kind of took it to the next level, just ‘cause he was so passionate about it.
Colosimo: Keeping on that same topic of your skills on the ground, Tom Billington stated that Karl would tell people that he felt you were unbeatable on the floor. So what do you think your strengths were that made Karl feel that way? And have you heard him say that?
Malenko: I had heard about it. First of all, nobody’s unbeatable. It’s like that “On any given Sunday” kind of thing- if the moment’s right, and the stars are aligned, (laughter) somebody’s gonna kick your ass. And it just happens. But, there was a time in my life- and again, I have to attribute this to Karl- there was a time in my life where I truly felt that… I would have let you take my arm home with you, as opposed to tapping out. I just wouldn’t have. I had a really good threshold of pain, and I would have never tapped out. You were gonna be hard pressed to pin me, and you were gonna be hard pressed to tap me out. And that’s a testimony to Karl, not a testimony of me. He really just drove that home in you.
One thing Karl would always tell you when you started out, he would say “Look, you come to me with heart- you come to me with that something that you have, that nobody can give you- and I’ll give you everything else.” And he continually hammered that home, that as long as you give him your heart- which means that you don’t stop, you don’t give up, you don’t do anything, you just keep pushing forward- as long as you give him that piece, he’ll give you the agility, he’ll give you the strength, he’ll give you the endurance, he’ll give you the technical wherewithal. He could build on everything else, he couldn't build heart. If you’re a pussy, you’re a pussy, and you’re just- Karl couldn’t make you different. And that’s one of the reasons why he liked a lot of the Japanese boys in particular, because they had that same thing. They had that will to just keep going.
Part One of Two: The Development of a Wrestling Icon
By William Colosimo | wcolosimo@yahoo.com
Jody Simon- better known in wrestling circles by the ring name “Joe Malenko”- is a professional wrestler who holds the distinction of training the longest consecutive period of time with Karl (Istaz) Gotch.
Jody, an extremely credible grappler of unquestionable lineage, takes us through some key moments in his development and career in this interview. In addition, he is able to provide valuable insight on not only Karl Gotch’s thought process, but also the methods Gotch used to reshape professional wrestling in Japan.
William Colosimo: To start, take us into the mind of Karl Gotch, meaning- what was his personality, and why do you think his world view was the way it was?
Joe Malenko: Well, like all of us, Karl was a complicated man who experienced a lot of things growing up that set the tone for him when he became an older man. It starts with a mom who was hard on him and very controlling and domineering, and a dad who was somewhat aloof but supported him in everything and anything he did. He was around his grandmother a lot. His grandmother was Italian; she was the warm, comfortable place for him to kind of fall on, on occasion when he was a young man. And so he always had this warm spot in his heart for anybody who had Italian blood running through their veins. Then he grew up in a really tough era, and he grew up in a really tough area. According to Karl, the docks of Flanders, in Belgium, where he grew up, were tough and kind of tested the mettle of men, back then even as a young man. So, from the beginning of his growth into manhood he had to learn how to take care of himself, how to handle himself on the streets, how to handle himself on the mat- because he started wrestling at a fairly young age. And that molded him into what he was. And what he was, was a guy who got into the sport of wrestling with a vengeance from the time he was a young man. He obviously made his way through the ranks in Belgium as an amateur, and then of course the war (Editor’s Note: World War II) took hold, so he would have been… so he was born in ’23, I think? Do you know?
Colosimo: I can pull that up. I know it was right around there, he’s right around my dad’s age.
Malenko: Yeah, I think he was ten years older than my dad (Larry Simon, aka Boris Malenko), my dad was born in ’33. And later on of course, they became the best of friends. That’s me skipping around.
Colosimo: 1924. August 3rd, 1924.
Malenko: Okay, so ’24. So, by the time the war rolled around, he was a young man, a scrappy young man. He got put in to a… he didn’t get put in a concentration camp, he got put into a work camp. But obviously those weren’t the Ritz-Carlton, nor were they a comfortable place to deal in, and to rest your head at night. He had a lot of issues, and one of his biggest issues during those times was of course his ability to train, his ability to stay in any kind of shape, and even to get food was a tough, tough deal for him in the camps. And he recounted some stories that I’ll leave lie, but basically that kept it going for some severe hardship in his life, and it also set the tone for an appreciation of things when he became an older man. One of the things that I knew about Karl, from the beginning that I sat with him to have a meal, was this was a man who appreciated food more than (laughter) anybody I’ve ever met in my entire life. I could literally sit and watch him eat- which sounds kind of strange- but you just knew that he was… it was almost a God like moment for him when he would eat, because it brought him back to the days where he didn’t have food, and he would almost have to kill somebody to get a scrap of food. And so, all that set the tone for who he was going to become. He was a man’s man, he was a very hard man, and he was a focused man, because in the early time of his life he had to focus on survival, and he changed that focus on over to wrestling, and eventually the art of “hooking”- or submission style wrestling (Editor’s Note: Hooking refers to the ability to catch an opponent in a submission hold. Wrestlers at the upper echelon of skill, who had strong abilities to catch other wrestlers- or challengers in general- in submission holds were referred to as hookers). So, it created this guy who had a lot of moxie. Because that’s the only way you survived.
Colosimo: From what I understand, Karl wrestled both freestyle and Greco-Roman in the 1948 Olympics for Belgium…
Malenko: Correct.
Colosimo: …then he turned pro a couple of years later I think. Who were Karl’s main instructors of submission holds?
Malenko: I think Karl dabbled when he was a young man, but when Karl dabbled- his dabbling was more “How do you protect yourself on the streets?” So a lot of his submissions, a lot of what he did, came out of him learning to fight his way through life on the streets of the wharfs around Belgium where he was working as a smithy. He wielded a hammer on steel to form things for the ships, and help with riggings on the ships back then. In fact that’s one of the things that happened- he lost his pinky finger- he was supposedly trying to help some guy, he was trying to save somebody who got caught up, and he got his finger caught, and literally tore it off. And so he was always missing that pinky finger, which made it rough for him to grab onto things, which made him work that much harder to have significant strength to do all the things he did. And, um… where was I headed?
Colosimo: We were looking for if he had any set, main trainers for submissions.
Malenko: Well, his main training for submissions started when he made his way to England, and he started under people in the Snake Pit at the time- Wigan. When Wigan was in its highlight of guys- (Billy) Riley, and all those crew who were the toughest of the toughest in England at the time (Editor’s Note: The Snake Pit was a nickname given to Billy Riley’s wrestling gym, which was located in Wigan- a town in Greater Manchester, England). Who were really doing catch style wrestling, and had kind of taken over the mantle from what was in the U.S. many, many years before, but it had kind of filtered out in the U.S. So Karl would always say that it was the Americans who were the best at this, but it died out here. And so when he had to learn the craft, the only place he had to go was in Wigan. Of course there were some really… Billy Riley, and guys that he talked about constantly were, in his eyes, phenomenal. Taught him the ropes, kicked his ass at times, and eventually he made his way to a point where he became what he became.
Colosimo: I assume that Frank Gotch was probably a huge influence on him.
Malenko: No, not really. I mean he talked about all the guys who came up in the days through the States in the early 20th century, on back into the 19th century- obviously Gotch and (George) Hackenschmidt and all those folks who, a lot of which were carnival guys who were fighting people in the carnival for a few bucks, and taking on all comers. And they were some of the toughest of the toughest. One of the greatest pictures he ever had was with Ed “Strangler” Lewis. Lewis was already in the latter part of his life, he was blind at that time. And Karl always said that Lewis couldn’t see him, but Lewis could feel his chest and he said “You know, you must have something special,” because you could feel how thick his chest was. Multiple stories from Karl.
But here’s the thing about Gotch: Karl’s mentorship was really a self-mentorship more than it was any one person making him who he was. The amazing thing about Gotch was- and this goes back to that singularity of focus, this ability to take something and live it twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week- I don’t think I ever saw Karl where he wasn’t sitting, thinking about how he could do something a little different. How to change up a hold, how he could deal with a defense on something that threw a monkey wrench into the way that he was trying to submit somebody, and how he could create a throw and make it easier. And then on top of that he had to figure out not just how he could do it, but how could he teach it? Because you’re dealing with students, and he was a teacher from the time he started. But his goal was always to figure out how to take things that he knew, and help you through the process of learning them, and your subtle nuances, and how your body was, and how you felt comfortable doing things- he would have to adapt and adjust what he was teaching you to you, so that you could do things in the best possible way. Karl lived and breathed it- day in, day out. Almost to the point where it was “My God Karl, you might want to think about something else in your life. There’s got to be more to life than this.” But there wasn’t.
So when people say “Well, where did he learn?” The basics for all this came from the waterfront, and learning not to get his ass handed to him. And then at the Snake Pit in Wigan, learning how to initialize his role as a hooker and learning shoot moves and doing what he did there- submission style. But then, beyond that it was all Karl. It’s not to say that he didn’t pick up here and there from a variety of people, but his fine tuning of stuff was beyond belief.
Colosimo: While you’re on the topic of Karl always trying to improve himself- as I interviewed Masa Funaki and Minoru Suzuki (Editor’s Note: Via my much appreciated interpreters), both of them revealed to me that obviously they trained under (Yoshiaki) Fujiwara and Gotch, but they both learned leg submissions from other places- it seems like they both go back to Victor Koga, a gentleman who was from sambo and introduced a lot of leg submissions into the shoot style that Karl already introduced in Japan (Editor’s Note: Suzuki learned the kneebar directly from Koga. Funaki learned sambo techniques from the instructional book “This is Sambo!” by Satoru Sayama and Koga. The book contains a number of leg lock techniques). So, how many leg locks were in Karl’s system before Victor Koga introduced many leg submissions into the shoot style taking place in Japan?
Malenko: I can’t give you specifics, or numbers, or percentages, of any one person doing this more than the other person, I just know… I started with Karl in 1972. And in 1972, there wasn’t any single way that you can turn, where he couldn’t get a leg, or he couldn’t get an arm, or he couldn’t submit you with some kind of crank on your neck.
The funny thing is, as I look back I always laugh at the fact that we really didn’t even have names for half of the things that we did. Nobody talked about a “Kimura,” that was after the fact when… there’s sort of this folklore that Karl- and real or unreal, I’m not sure- but there’s sort of this urban legend that Karl taught (Masahiko) Kimura the double wristlock, and eventually the double wristlock became the Kimura (Editor’s Note: Jody is hinting at the famous Masahiko Kimura versus Helio Gracie grappling match from 1951, in which Gracie was caught in a joint lock called ude garami, or double wristlock. Some in the Brazilian jiu-jitsu world began to call the move the Kimura after this point, in honor of Kimura). It all originated with Karl. Not that the double wristlock originated with Karl, but the fine tuning of it did.
So as far as legs went, I’ve watched a lot of people on the mat, and I’ve never seen anybody do anything with the legs that I didn’t see Karl do back in the early ‘70s. And past that when as a kid I used to watch him workout, before I even started training with him. So, I’m not sure that he didn’t have the ammo to do everything that anybody else did, and maybe they just didn’t spend the time with him? ‘Cause here’s the other thing about Gotch: he touched a lot of lives, and a lot of those lives that he touched will claim- and I’m not saying that Funaki and Suzuki didn’t train with him- the time that he spent with a lot of people was nominal in comparison to the time he spent with people that I knew, because we all lived here in Tampa (Florida). I mean, he was my next door neighbor for years. I saw him and trained with him every single day, without exception- I don’t care if I was freaking dying- for seven years. So, I always laugh at the fact that I run into people that say “Yeah, I worked out with Karl,” “I train with Karl,” and I’m like “Well, when were you there?” Or I would even ask Karl “You know I just ran into this guy, he said you’re training him” and Karl would be like “I don’t even know who you’re talking about.” Or “Yeah, he stopped in- wanted me to show him a couple things.” So getting back to Karl being more or less proficient in a variety of submissions on the legs, I can’t tell you with certainty that that is or is not the case, but I can tell you with certainty that I don’t know of anything that he didn’t know when it came to figuring out a way to (submit someone) with a variety of ankle locks and toe holds.
Colosimo: Jody, you had mentioned how back then there weren’t a lot of names for things- and even Karl’s style in general- is there a set name for it? Catch-as-catch-can, Gotch style- is there any name for his wrestling?
Malenko: We just said we were submission style wrestlers back then. You were a hooker- and of course you always kinda laughed when you said that if you’re out and about, because the minute you said you were a hooker everybody’s trying to give you a couple bucks. But we were hookers, we were submission style guys. We didn't really talk about being catch wrestlers. I mean sambo was obviously out there already, but not as advanced in the overall cadre of moves that Karl had in his valise. So, that’s who we were. Bill if you would have asked us, if you would have asked me what I was doing, I would have told you- “I wrestle. I’m a wrestler.” I just happen to use submissions when I wrestle. Now when I started, there were very few people doing this. And on rare occasions, Karl would bring somebody in- Japanese guys would come over to visit or whatever, and I’d get a chance to train with them on the mat- but there were very few other guys doing submission style wrestling. Nobody. Nobody, really. And at the time, nobody was mixing in any of the other art forms, because it just wasn’t done. I mean to my knowledge, the first thing that happened in Japan was that Sayama brought in Muay Thai.
Colosimo: You’re going exactly where I wanted to go. From what I understand, the original “Tiger Mask,” Satoru Sayama, he was one of Karl’s students, who eventually gravitated towards kicking- like you said, the Muay Thai. He also had a relationship with the sambo player Victor Koga, who I mentioned earlier- they wrote a book together. What were Karl’s thoughts on Sayama developing his striking and submissions in addition to what Karl may or may not have taught? Did Karl give you any thoughts on that, and Sayama going and developing Shooto? (Editor’s Note: Satoru Sayama was a pro-wrestler and Karl Gotch protégé that took on the Tiger Mask persona- Tiger Mask being the titular character of a popular manga- while working for New Japan Pro-Wrestling. Sayama left both New Japan and Tiger Mask to join the original UWF, the Universal Wrestling Federation. He eventually left the UWF- and pro-wrestling altogether- behind to develop Shooto, the first mixed martial arts league in Japan)
Malenko: Karl was very much a traditionalist. And when I say that, traditionalist in his way of viewing the art form that he was best at, which was submission style wrestling. And it started standing up. This idea- your ground game being your only game- that’s a Brazilian jiu-jitsu deal, and it was never a Karl Gotch deal. You stand up, and then eventually you make your way to the mat. And then Karl would of course always say “The bulls get killed on the floor,” so everything really does happen downstairs. But that was who Karl was. Karl was that guy. So anything else that was introduced, it was a little bit far afield from where Gotch kind of viewed the sport, yet he also understood that there needed to be other things brought in for purposes of drawing a crowd. Because he did understand professional wrestling- he was also a professional wrestler. So, he understood that you needed those things that were gonna get people to go “Ooh! Ohh! Ooh!” And you could do that with submission, and you could do that with certain throws when you start up top, and you make your way down to the floor. But, to get kicked- especially if you’re wearing a (shin) pad, you get that sound, then all of a sudden somebody in the back of the auditorium cringes, and gets everybody feeling good. So, I don’t know if he liked it, but he accepted it. What he didn’t accept was where it all eventually went. Because in his eyes-
Colosimo: The no holds barred. The early UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship), you mean?
Malenko: Yeah. In his eyes, it all went into the shitter (laughter).
Colosimo: So let’s go a few years ahead while we’re on the same topic- what did Karl think of Pancrase, once that started? Was it similar to Shooto- where it’s getting watered down ‘cause of the striking?
Malenko: I think he looked at certain aspects of it favorably, and other parts of it not favorably. I think when you started getting into the striking stuff, especially when people started slapping- you got a lot of things that he looked at, and he just didn’t accept. But it was part of the bigger picture, and he was okay with the bigger picture. I mean he named Pancrase.
Colosimo: Since I talked to you last, I found that footage- I don’t know if I told you.
Malenko: Yeah, you did.
Colosimo: Yeah- from March of ’92 where he said “Pancrase,” the exact same way they say it for the company. They didn't tweak it from “Pankration” or anything.
Malenko: Nope, and that was his naming of the company at the time. That came from him and he told me it came from him, when it all happened. He was very fond of Fujiwara…
Colosimo: Funaki and Suzuki sought out Karl’s guidance when they were developing the Pancrase organization. Do you know what Karl hoped Pancrase might achieve?
Malenko: He wanted to take pro-wrestling and move it on back to what he viewed as the real sport of it, which incorporated a lot of the things that he learned through the years- training in Wigan, and dealing with all the different hookers that he dealt with here in the United States. And so, it was his remembrance of the history of wrestling that gave him this distaste for what wrestling had become- so, a major effort of his was to try and pull it back to something that was a hell of a lot more credible.
Colosimo: Fujiwara started I think the same year you did- ’72.
Malenko: Yeah, probably around there.
Colosimo: I know you trained seven straight years- Fujiwara trained maybe longer, but intermittently ‘cause Karl had to go on three month visas.
Malenko: Well look, I never- let’s get it straight- I never stopped training. As long as I knew Karl, I never stopped training. If I would come over and we would have a drink, inevitably we were gonna be either on the ground or standing up, and he was gonna be showing me something. And this goes to something Karl said all the time as well, which he probably would take credit for, but I’m sure other people have said it- “You stop learning, you die.” So, I was being trained by Karl Gotch ‘til the time that Karl was in a coma and he was seeing the end of his life. If you were a student of Karl and you were ever around him, he was gonna teach you something. It was either how to maneuver something a little different, how to change up something, how to do something you’ve never even thought about doing or seen before, or sort of more a bigger picture life lesson.
So, many years passed, and Karl wasn’t the kind of guy to look at you and say how great you were or anything like that, he just didn’t do that. And I’m sitting at his house, and two things came up- one is, after I got there he said something to me, and then he just looked at me and said “You know, I’m very proud of you.” And that was the first time he had said that since I was fourteen years old, and at that point in time I was whatever, fifty (laughter). So, first time in my life that he ever said that to me. And then we started talking, and he said “So, I have a question for you.” I’m like “Huh?” He said “When you were coming into your own, do you think you could have beaten me?” And I said “I don’t know- but I would have never tried.” ‘Cause I always had so much respect, that I would have pulled back from ever trying to really go whole hog at him.
Colosimo: So the two of you from ’72 to ’79- you never sparred on the ground at a full one hundred percent?
Malenko: Well no, I did until- and this is kind of a questionable thing, because I don’t want this to come across sounding like I thought I could beat Karl Gotch- but the point being is, I viewed him so strongly as my mentor, and my coach, and my second dad, that I would have never gone past that point with him where I would have really gone full bore, when I got to a certain point in my life when I started kind of feelin’ my oats a little bit. Whether or not I could have ever bested him at any time- who the hell knows. Maybe, maybe not- it doesn’t matter. There’s a bigger point in all of this, and it’s not whether or not I could have beaten Karl at any given point. It’s that he instilled so much respect from his students, that you viewed him as this teacher, and you would never cross over the line with your teacher. And I’m bringing that up because there wasn’t just wrestling, it was life lessons. And so, when we were sittin’ there and he was saying that- he was telling me how proud he was- I said to him “I have to let you know that it wasn’t just on the mat that you gave me whatever you gave me, it was my life. It was everything that I’ve done since then.” It was my ability to stay focused, to stay true to myself, to be the right kind of man when I was dealing with certain people. It went to the core of everything you are as a person. And that’s what wrestling does for you, if you’re really in the sport- but Karl kind of took it to the next level, just ‘cause he was so passionate about it.
Colosimo: Keeping on that same topic of your skills on the ground, Tom Billington stated that Karl would tell people that he felt you were unbeatable on the floor. So what do you think your strengths were that made Karl feel that way? And have you heard him say that?
Malenko: I had heard about it. First of all, nobody’s unbeatable. It’s like that “On any given Sunday” kind of thing- if the moment’s right, and the stars are aligned, (laughter) somebody’s gonna kick your ass. And it just happens. But, there was a time in my life- and again, I have to attribute this to Karl- there was a time in my life where I truly felt that… I would have let you take my arm home with you, as opposed to tapping out. I just wouldn’t have. I had a really good threshold of pain, and I would have never tapped out. You were gonna be hard pressed to pin me, and you were gonna be hard pressed to tap me out. And that’s a testimony to Karl, not a testimony of me. He really just drove that home in you.
One thing Karl would always tell you when you started out, he would say “Look, you come to me with heart- you come to me with that something that you have, that nobody can give you- and I’ll give you everything else.” And he continually hammered that home, that as long as you give him your heart- which means that you don’t stop, you don’t give up, you don’t do anything, you just keep pushing forward- as long as you give him that piece, he’ll give you the agility, he’ll give you the strength, he’ll give you the endurance, he’ll give you the technical wherewithal. He could build on everything else, he couldn't build heart. If you’re a pussy, you’re a pussy, and you’re just- Karl couldn’t make you different. And that’s one of the reasons why he liked a lot of the Japanese boys in particular, because they had that same thing. They had that will to just keep going.
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