Welcome to the 2nd interview in our ongoing quest to fully shed some light on the history of MMA. This humble scribe recently had the pleasure of traveling to Virginia to meet with an incredibly gracious man, and wrestling legend, in the form of Mark Fleming. Mark is a unique person in the scope of our project, as he was the first, and practically the only, westerner to enter the UWF-I with a considerable wealth of wrestling experience, both from the professional standpoint (having traveled all over the United States within the NWA from 1983-1986 and having a run in NJPW in 1989) as well as having the benefit of being under the watchful tutelage of one of the greatest pro wrestlers of all time in the legendary, Lou Thesz. One of the refreshing things about him was that he always his own man and prided himself on showcasing professional wrestling in the best possible light, as a worthy endeavor with the focus being on wrestling instead of silly gimmicks and nonsense. He was kind enough to give me over 5 hours of his time, so this will be the first part of a multi-part series. We cover a lot of ground in this interview, and this should appeal to both fans of pro wrestling and MMA history.
Fleming putting Kiyoshi Tamura in a STF
MB: Thank you for taking the time to do this interview. I think that one of the interesting things about talking to you is that you went into this (the UWF-I) having the most actual wrestling experience up to that point, especially on the professional side. Some of the guys before you, like Tom Burton and JT Southern, had a little bit of pro wrestling experience, but nowhere near the level that you did. You went into the UWF-I with considerable experience, especially as a protegé of Lou Thesz.
Of course, Billy Scott came in later with Billy Robinson about a year and a half after you debuted, but you were the first person to arrive to the UWF-I with some real and serious wrestling experience. Although, Pez Whatley was there for like a min..
MF: Yeah, for a couple of matches. Two or three.
MB: But he didn't look very good in there. *both laugh*.
MF: I'll tell you the truth, just the way I explained it to Lou (Thesz) it was like I had to learn how to wrestle all over again. It was a new style to me. I used to work out with Anjo (Yoji) in the dojo over there because it was new. Also, I didn't approve of the kicks either, and you know, Lou didn’t either. Also, they made me wear those shin guards and I told Lou that I didn’t want to wear these damn things, they don’t feel comfortable… but Lou said “Look. Let’s just play by their rules.” My first match over there I wrestled Takada at the Korakuen Hall, and I was going for pinfalls…and there was no pinfalls!! (Both laugh)
They sent me tapes before I went over there to watch, and I told Lou “Man this isn’t wrestling, this is kicking.” And he said, “I know it’s bullshit, but just go along with it.”
MB: Ok. We’ll get back to that, but no doubt, that’s some good stuff. I suppose that the first thing that I should ask you is what was your first exposure to wrestling as a kid, or what was your first memory of wrestling where you saw it and knew that it was something that you wanted to do?
MF: Professional wrestling, or amateur?
MB: Either way. Let’s go with professional wrestling.
MF: I saw it on tv when I was a kid, and I went to this school, I think it was in 6th grade and some of the other boys in my class were trading wrestling magazines, but I didn’t know what it was because my family were not wrestling fans, and they were saying stuff like, “Yeah man, this stuff is on TV…blah blah blah, and that I should watch it on Saturday” and I did. I started watching it, and I started to become interested in it, but I was interested in it for a different reason. Even back then, when I was in 6thgrade, I don’t know what it is, but me and my dad are really close and he was always with me during all the sports I did, and he told me that I was looking at this thing (pro wrestling) differently than others. At that young age I was looking at the holds, and how they were applied, and I was interested more in that, and how it was all done, rather than the angles that they were doing.
MB: So you were less interested in the theatrical side of it?
MF: Yeah, the kids would talk about who was going to beat up who, and all that, but I didn’t have much interest in all that. I was more interested in the bumps they were taking and the holds that they were doing, as that just fascinated me, and that’s weird, but it’s just the way it was for me. My brother’s best friend wrestled in high school, and I would talk to him, and he would tell me that I would have to try out for high school wrestling. By that time, I was in 7th grade, and I think I was 13 years old. He told me where to go to the high school and talk to the coach, his name and what he looked like. However, when I went there, I couldn’t get inside as the school was locked. Later on, I happened to be at a high school football game and one of my sister’s best friends brother wrestled. He was a state champion, and his sister would tell me, “Hey my brother wrestles, he’s a state champion, and his coach is right over there. Just go on over there, and I’ll introduce you to him. Just go up to him and tell him that you want to wrestle!”
So here I was, a snotty nosed 7th grader, I went up to the high school coach and told him who I was, and he shook my hand. I told him who I was and what I wanted to do, and that I wanted to try out for the team. I didn’t know JV or varsity, or anything like that, and of course he asked me how old I was, so I told him that I was 13. He then told me that I was a year too young, and that I had to be at least in the 8th grade. I think that he could tell that I was disappointed, so he told me, “I tell you what, if you show up for our practice, I’ll see how well you can handle our practice.” And let me tell you, those kids were tough, and this coach was tough. He was a Virginia Tech national champion and an All-American football linebacker for Virginia Tech, so he was a tough dude who took his wrestling seriously.
So, I go out there, and I got my ass whooped every day! *Both Laugh*. I was just a piece of meat for those guys, but I guess that he noticed that I kept coming back…
MB: You had heart.
MF: I guess… I just kept coming back. I’d keep showing up and the coach would ask me if I was going to practice that day, and I’d say, “Yes sir!” At that time, I weighed 145 pounds which was pretty big for a kid in the 7th grade, so he put me with that weight class with varsity guys, and high school guys, and I was only just starting jr. high. I would wrestle them every day, and by me getting my butt kicked every day it helped me, because I was learning the hard way. I couldn’t handle them, but I was learning because it wasn’t easy. I had gone out to the intramural wrestling team at the school that I was going to, and I beat all those guys easily. I beat all my fellow 7th graders like there was nothing to it. It wasn’t that I really knew what to do, I was just imitating what I had learned. I knew a half-nelson, I knew a switch, but it wasn’t any fun beating everyone on that intramural team, because there wasn’t any competition for me.
Mark in his young wrestling days…
I addressed this with that coach, and he told me to stop going to the intermural thing, and to keep coming to him and working out with his boys, and he would see if I would stick with it. Well… I stuck with it. *Laughs*
MB: Awesome. Who were some of the professional wrestlers that really stood out to you as a kid? Who in the professional realm really made an impression on you?
MF: I remember watching Johnny Valentine. He was the first guy that I remember watching wrestle on TV. Oh gosh… *thinks for a moment* Wahoo McDaniel, who I later traveled with and wrestled. Paul Jones, who I later wrestled. Some of these guys were still there (in the NWA) when I broke in. I remember Ole & Gene Anderson, who ended up breaking me into the business.
MB: That must have been surreal, the people that you saw on TV are now your colleagues! *Laughs*
MF: Yeah! It was fascinating, because here I was, right out of high school as I had never gone to college, and I’m invited to this NWA tryout. Crockett Promotions had a try out every year to look for new talent, whether they kept the new talent or not, or sent them to Georgia, they always looked for new talent, and that was basically due to Gene Anderson. I guess you could say that he was a talent scout for Crockett back then. He was always looking for new talent, and he liked young guys that could really wrestle, or at least be tough as nails. However, they really liked guys that could show their wrestling ability. And just because you were a football player, or boxer, or bodybuilder, or a bouncer, none of that impressed them. I didn’t know that at first.
MB: That’s interesting that you say that, because when I think about what a Vince McMahon or someone similar to him in that era, I would imagine that it was probably the opposite. I mean they probably appreciated if you knew how to work, but I would think that he was more interested in somebody’s physique, something that would lead him to think that he could market it, or make toys out of it, etc. So it’s interesting to me that they (Crockett) was looking for people with actual wrestling ability.
MF: Maybe if it was somebody else with a different attitude that worked for Crockett was doing the tryouts, then I probably wouldn’t have been picked. But since it was Gene Anderson, who believe it or not was tough as nails, I mean, he didn’t look like much, but a lot of guys were scared of him, and he could wrestle, and he knew some hooks. He came from the old school and was actually trained by Verne Gagne. He even trained guys for Verne Gagne for a little while when he came to Carolina. So, he still had that Verne Gagne mentality, and so did Ole Anderson. They just wanted guys in the business that took it seriously, had a lot of heart, and they didn’t care what you did in the past. They were not impressed with football players. In fact, I saw Ole Anderson beat the crap out of football players that came from the University of South Carolina. I remember one time, there were four of them, and you could tell that they were on the juice. He beat them so bad, that he chased them out of there, and they were bigger than him!
MB: *Laughs*
Ole and Gene Anderson, who were the ones that initiated Mark into the wrestling business.
MF: Ole would say that just because you were a football player, that it didn’t mean that you could wrestle. I was the 2ndsmallest guy on the roster. They had something like 27 of us that were invited to this tryout, and it was an all-day affair. We all gathered at the old Charlotte Coliseum, and Gene Anderson was in charge.
MB: Ok. Let’s pause there for a second. When you were going to this tryout, what was your perception of professional wrestling? Obviously, you are a smart guy, you know it’s not completely real for lack of a better word, but did you think that maybe some of it is real and some of it is not, or what was your perception of it going into this tryout?
MF: As being an amateur wrestler, I knew that some of the holds were worked holds, though I didn’t know the word “work” at the time, but I knew that they weren’t…
MB: You knew that there was some cooperation?
MF: Yeah, I knew that there had to be some cooperation. That didn’t matter to me though, as I respected the guys. I don’t care if a guy helps you…. When you hit that mat, it is no joke! That that is what used to kill me, you would hear guys say, “Oh. That wrestling mat is a trampoline!” Well, I found out that it wasn’t any trampoline!
MB: *Laughs*
MF: And anyone that has ever taken a bump will tell you that it isn’t a trampoline. A ring consists of a wrestling mat cut to the sides of the ring and it’s on top of boards and you have a piece of canvass pulled tight over it. That’s all it is. Now I’ve heard that Vince McMahon has springs under his rings, but I don’t know I never wrestled for him. I can tell you that Crockett’s rings were solid. I mean, they weren’t as solid as a boxing ring…
MB: Did the rings in Japan feel the same?
MF: The rings in Japan were excellent! Golly, they had great rings. But they were similar to Crockett’s.
MB: Ok, so you are at this talent scout event, and from what I recall from reading your book, it was you and three others that showed enough heart to proceed? The others couldn’t handle it?
MF: At the end of the day, it was me and two other guys. One guy was an amateur wrestler who lived in Winston, Salem. He had gotten into bodybuilding, so he had a hell of a body, and he was clearly on the juice. The other guy was Ken Starnes (Spelling?) He was a Pepsi-Cola delivery guy, and a bouncer at night. He played college football somewhere and was a huge guy. He was around 6’6 and 275 pounds without any fat on him. He also had a big scar on his face where he had gotten into a fight, and he just looked the part. Ole Anderson made us all go round-robin, where one guy stays in the ring and they would send somebody in to wrestle them until someone is pinned, and then they would send in the next guy. It was now down to us three and I only weighed 200 pounds, Starnes weighed 275-280, and the other guy weighed around 235. Well, we went round-robin and I pinned both of them at 200 pounds, just by using my amateur wrestling, which Starnes knew nothing of, in fact I’m surprised they picked him, but they did. Probably because he was tough as nails. The bodybuilder guy was good, and he could wrestle.
My dad was also there, and he had seen all of my amateur wrestling matches, but he had never seen me wrestle the way I did here. I was just pumped and ready to go.
MB: You wanted it!
MF: Yeah, I wanted it. After the tryout was over with my dad went up to Ole Anderson and asked him if I had a chance, and Ole told him that I was a tough kid with a lot of heart, and if I sticked with it, and worked really hard, then I could make it in this business. He did tell me that he wanted me to gain 20 pounds before he saw me again. So they sent us, the three chosen ones away, by telling us, “Don’t call us, we’ll call you.” And I thought “Oh, shit! That means they aren’t calling us back!”
MB: *Laughs*
MF: Well, Gene wound up calling me. He said that he wanted me in Charlotte in two weeks from this date and hung up. He didn’t even ask me if that was ok. It was either their way, or no way. And everything was like that, they were very ugh…
MB: I believe it, because even now if you go to YouTube and check out an interview with Ole Anderson, he must be the world’s grumpiest man. *Laughs*
MF: Yeah, they take no shit.
MB: *Laughing* Yeah, I don’t know if you know the story of how he got into a lawsuit against Vince McMahon and told him off in the courtroom. HE didn’t take any grief from McMahon, either!
MF: Gene would bring in different guys for us to work out with and Don Kernodle, who was a good amateur wrestler from Elon College, he had been wrestling pro for years, I wound up working with him a lot. I also worked with Mike Rotondo who wrestled in Syracuse.
MB: Yeah, we’re going to get to him a little later. That poor guy… some of those gimmicks that he was strapped with.
MF: Oh… They killed him! They killed him!
MB: Now you send something interesting. They told you that you need to gain 20 pounds. Now what year was this again?
MF: This was in 1981.
MB: Ok. So here is my question. Now not anymore obviously, at least since 1990 or 1991, but at that particular point in time steroids were legal, and they were cheap. Had you given the use of them any consideration? What were your thoughts on steroids at that time?
MF: I had never been exposed to them. I played football all through high school and I was never exposed to them.
MB: But when you heard that they wanted you to gain weight, did you feel that you needed more of a bodybuilding physique, or that you needed steroids? Were those kind of thoughts crossing your mind?
MF: Well, yeah. When I walked into that coliseum and I look around to all the guys that were trying out and I was the 2ndsmallest guy… They weighed us in. Gene weighed everybody in, and I was like damn….. I told my dad “I don’t know…” but he told me just to go in there and wrestle and do the best I can. They never interested me (steroids)wrestling is what interested me. It didn’t matter to me how I looked, it interested me to learn how to wrestle.
MB: Ok. But did you ever feel any pressure. Something like, you didn’t want to necessarily do this, but felt like you would have to? I don’t think that most people take steroids because they just want to take steroids, but they probably feel it a necessity because they are afraid that they won’t look they way they need to look.
MF: I always looked at steroids as cheating. I always thought that I could do it on my own, and if I couldn’t do it on my own, then I don’t want it. I always adopted that attitude. I didn’t want to kiss anybody’s ass because my dad always told me to never be an ass kisser because he’s not, and he told me that if I couldn’t get it on my own ability, then don’t do it, and just accept it. I had steroids offered to me once I turned pro, though I won’t name names.
MB: Sure, I imagine that you were surrounded by it.
MF: Oh yeah, all sorts of guys were doing it, and I was around it, I saw it, and it was offered to me.
MB: Steorids have been around America (in bodybuilding at least) since the 50s, so I’m sure that in any sport, especially wrestling or a similar kind of entertainment venue, there comes a time where that is either offered to you, or thoughts of taking them cross your mind.
MF: Yeah, it crossed my mind, and it was offered to me, but I just always had that mentality that if I can’t do this on my own, then I don’t want it. I don’t want it to be handed to me, or I don’t want it to be fake. I just thought it was cheating, I really did. In later years me and Lou Thesz used to talk about this a lot. I was training guys at his school and there was this guy that told Lou, “Damn! Fleming is big naturally, and has a hell of a body, so if you could get him on a cycle of juice, he would be great.” Lou wouldn’t have anything to do with it. Lou used to look at steroid guys that would come down to his gym and work out with me and watch me stretch them. He used to tell guys that were obviously on steroids, “Hey! You could be the next Hulk Hogan!”
MB: *Laughs*
MF: Well, Lou was trying to get their money from them, by getting them to join the school, and I would get down there, and I didn’t like it because just because they were steroid guys, that didn’t mean that they could wrestle, so I would go down there and stretch them, and Lou would get mad at me! Because they wouldn’t come back! *Both Laugh* He would say, “Don’t do that anymore!”
MB: At least get the money from them first!
MF: Yes, he would say, “Get the money first!” But I dunno…I would get carried away. *Laughs*
MB: Get the money and then stretch them.
Lou Thesz and Mark Fleming Together..
Fleming putting Kiyoshi Tamura in a STF
MB: Thank you for taking the time to do this interview. I think that one of the interesting things about talking to you is that you went into this (the UWF-I) having the most actual wrestling experience up to that point, especially on the professional side. Some of the guys before you, like Tom Burton and JT Southern, had a little bit of pro wrestling experience, but nowhere near the level that you did. You went into the UWF-I with considerable experience, especially as a protegé of Lou Thesz.
Of course, Billy Scott came in later with Billy Robinson about a year and a half after you debuted, but you were the first person to arrive to the UWF-I with some real and serious wrestling experience. Although, Pez Whatley was there for like a min..
MF: Yeah, for a couple of matches. Two or three.
MB: But he didn't look very good in there. *both laugh*.
MF: I'll tell you the truth, just the way I explained it to Lou (Thesz) it was like I had to learn how to wrestle all over again. It was a new style to me. I used to work out with Anjo (Yoji) in the dojo over there because it was new. Also, I didn't approve of the kicks either, and you know, Lou didn’t either. Also, they made me wear those shin guards and I told Lou that I didn’t want to wear these damn things, they don’t feel comfortable… but Lou said “Look. Let’s just play by their rules.” My first match over there I wrestled Takada at the Korakuen Hall, and I was going for pinfalls…and there was no pinfalls!! (Both laugh)
They sent me tapes before I went over there to watch, and I told Lou “Man this isn’t wrestling, this is kicking.” And he said, “I know it’s bullshit, but just go along with it.”
MB: Ok. We’ll get back to that, but no doubt, that’s some good stuff. I suppose that the first thing that I should ask you is what was your first exposure to wrestling as a kid, or what was your first memory of wrestling where you saw it and knew that it was something that you wanted to do?
MF: Professional wrestling, or amateur?
MB: Either way. Let’s go with professional wrestling.
MF: I saw it on tv when I was a kid, and I went to this school, I think it was in 6th grade and some of the other boys in my class were trading wrestling magazines, but I didn’t know what it was because my family were not wrestling fans, and they were saying stuff like, “Yeah man, this stuff is on TV…blah blah blah, and that I should watch it on Saturday” and I did. I started watching it, and I started to become interested in it, but I was interested in it for a different reason. Even back then, when I was in 6thgrade, I don’t know what it is, but me and my dad are really close and he was always with me during all the sports I did, and he told me that I was looking at this thing (pro wrestling) differently than others. At that young age I was looking at the holds, and how they were applied, and I was interested more in that, and how it was all done, rather than the angles that they were doing.
MB: So you were less interested in the theatrical side of it?
MF: Yeah, the kids would talk about who was going to beat up who, and all that, but I didn’t have much interest in all that. I was more interested in the bumps they were taking and the holds that they were doing, as that just fascinated me, and that’s weird, but it’s just the way it was for me. My brother’s best friend wrestled in high school, and I would talk to him, and he would tell me that I would have to try out for high school wrestling. By that time, I was in 7th grade, and I think I was 13 years old. He told me where to go to the high school and talk to the coach, his name and what he looked like. However, when I went there, I couldn’t get inside as the school was locked. Later on, I happened to be at a high school football game and one of my sister’s best friends brother wrestled. He was a state champion, and his sister would tell me, “Hey my brother wrestles, he’s a state champion, and his coach is right over there. Just go on over there, and I’ll introduce you to him. Just go up to him and tell him that you want to wrestle!”
So here I was, a snotty nosed 7th grader, I went up to the high school coach and told him who I was, and he shook my hand. I told him who I was and what I wanted to do, and that I wanted to try out for the team. I didn’t know JV or varsity, or anything like that, and of course he asked me how old I was, so I told him that I was 13. He then told me that I was a year too young, and that I had to be at least in the 8th grade. I think that he could tell that I was disappointed, so he told me, “I tell you what, if you show up for our practice, I’ll see how well you can handle our practice.” And let me tell you, those kids were tough, and this coach was tough. He was a Virginia Tech national champion and an All-American football linebacker for Virginia Tech, so he was a tough dude who took his wrestling seriously.
So, I go out there, and I got my ass whooped every day! *Both Laugh*. I was just a piece of meat for those guys, but I guess that he noticed that I kept coming back…
MB: You had heart.
MF: I guess… I just kept coming back. I’d keep showing up and the coach would ask me if I was going to practice that day, and I’d say, “Yes sir!” At that time, I weighed 145 pounds which was pretty big for a kid in the 7th grade, so he put me with that weight class with varsity guys, and high school guys, and I was only just starting jr. high. I would wrestle them every day, and by me getting my butt kicked every day it helped me, because I was learning the hard way. I couldn’t handle them, but I was learning because it wasn’t easy. I had gone out to the intramural wrestling team at the school that I was going to, and I beat all those guys easily. I beat all my fellow 7th graders like there was nothing to it. It wasn’t that I really knew what to do, I was just imitating what I had learned. I knew a half-nelson, I knew a switch, but it wasn’t any fun beating everyone on that intramural team, because there wasn’t any competition for me.
Mark in his young wrestling days…
I addressed this with that coach, and he told me to stop going to the intermural thing, and to keep coming to him and working out with his boys, and he would see if I would stick with it. Well… I stuck with it. *Laughs*
MB: Awesome. Who were some of the professional wrestlers that really stood out to you as a kid? Who in the professional realm really made an impression on you?
MF: I remember watching Johnny Valentine. He was the first guy that I remember watching wrestle on TV. Oh gosh… *thinks for a moment* Wahoo McDaniel, who I later traveled with and wrestled. Paul Jones, who I later wrestled. Some of these guys were still there (in the NWA) when I broke in. I remember Ole & Gene Anderson, who ended up breaking me into the business.
MB: That must have been surreal, the people that you saw on TV are now your colleagues! *Laughs*
MF: Yeah! It was fascinating, because here I was, right out of high school as I had never gone to college, and I’m invited to this NWA tryout. Crockett Promotions had a try out every year to look for new talent, whether they kept the new talent or not, or sent them to Georgia, they always looked for new talent, and that was basically due to Gene Anderson. I guess you could say that he was a talent scout for Crockett back then. He was always looking for new talent, and he liked young guys that could really wrestle, or at least be tough as nails. However, they really liked guys that could show their wrestling ability. And just because you were a football player, or boxer, or bodybuilder, or a bouncer, none of that impressed them. I didn’t know that at first.
MB: That’s interesting that you say that, because when I think about what a Vince McMahon or someone similar to him in that era, I would imagine that it was probably the opposite. I mean they probably appreciated if you knew how to work, but I would think that he was more interested in somebody’s physique, something that would lead him to think that he could market it, or make toys out of it, etc. So it’s interesting to me that they (Crockett) was looking for people with actual wrestling ability.
MF: Maybe if it was somebody else with a different attitude that worked for Crockett was doing the tryouts, then I probably wouldn’t have been picked. But since it was Gene Anderson, who believe it or not was tough as nails, I mean, he didn’t look like much, but a lot of guys were scared of him, and he could wrestle, and he knew some hooks. He came from the old school and was actually trained by Verne Gagne. He even trained guys for Verne Gagne for a little while when he came to Carolina. So, he still had that Verne Gagne mentality, and so did Ole Anderson. They just wanted guys in the business that took it seriously, had a lot of heart, and they didn’t care what you did in the past. They were not impressed with football players. In fact, I saw Ole Anderson beat the crap out of football players that came from the University of South Carolina. I remember one time, there were four of them, and you could tell that they were on the juice. He beat them so bad, that he chased them out of there, and they were bigger than him!
MB: *Laughs*
Ole and Gene Anderson, who were the ones that initiated Mark into the wrestling business.
MF: Ole would say that just because you were a football player, that it didn’t mean that you could wrestle. I was the 2ndsmallest guy on the roster. They had something like 27 of us that were invited to this tryout, and it was an all-day affair. We all gathered at the old Charlotte Coliseum, and Gene Anderson was in charge.
MB: Ok. Let’s pause there for a second. When you were going to this tryout, what was your perception of professional wrestling? Obviously, you are a smart guy, you know it’s not completely real for lack of a better word, but did you think that maybe some of it is real and some of it is not, or what was your perception of it going into this tryout?
MF: As being an amateur wrestler, I knew that some of the holds were worked holds, though I didn’t know the word “work” at the time, but I knew that they weren’t…
MB: You knew that there was some cooperation?
MF: Yeah, I knew that there had to be some cooperation. That didn’t matter to me though, as I respected the guys. I don’t care if a guy helps you…. When you hit that mat, it is no joke! That that is what used to kill me, you would hear guys say, “Oh. That wrestling mat is a trampoline!” Well, I found out that it wasn’t any trampoline!
MB: *Laughs*
MF: And anyone that has ever taken a bump will tell you that it isn’t a trampoline. A ring consists of a wrestling mat cut to the sides of the ring and it’s on top of boards and you have a piece of canvass pulled tight over it. That’s all it is. Now I’ve heard that Vince McMahon has springs under his rings, but I don’t know I never wrestled for him. I can tell you that Crockett’s rings were solid. I mean, they weren’t as solid as a boxing ring…
MB: Did the rings in Japan feel the same?
MF: The rings in Japan were excellent! Golly, they had great rings. But they were similar to Crockett’s.
MB: Ok, so you are at this talent scout event, and from what I recall from reading your book, it was you and three others that showed enough heart to proceed? The others couldn’t handle it?
MF: At the end of the day, it was me and two other guys. One guy was an amateur wrestler who lived in Winston, Salem. He had gotten into bodybuilding, so he had a hell of a body, and he was clearly on the juice. The other guy was Ken Starnes (Spelling?) He was a Pepsi-Cola delivery guy, and a bouncer at night. He played college football somewhere and was a huge guy. He was around 6’6 and 275 pounds without any fat on him. He also had a big scar on his face where he had gotten into a fight, and he just looked the part. Ole Anderson made us all go round-robin, where one guy stays in the ring and they would send somebody in to wrestle them until someone is pinned, and then they would send in the next guy. It was now down to us three and I only weighed 200 pounds, Starnes weighed 275-280, and the other guy weighed around 235. Well, we went round-robin and I pinned both of them at 200 pounds, just by using my amateur wrestling, which Starnes knew nothing of, in fact I’m surprised they picked him, but they did. Probably because he was tough as nails. The bodybuilder guy was good, and he could wrestle.
My dad was also there, and he had seen all of my amateur wrestling matches, but he had never seen me wrestle the way I did here. I was just pumped and ready to go.
MB: You wanted it!
MF: Yeah, I wanted it. After the tryout was over with my dad went up to Ole Anderson and asked him if I had a chance, and Ole told him that I was a tough kid with a lot of heart, and if I sticked with it, and worked really hard, then I could make it in this business. He did tell me that he wanted me to gain 20 pounds before he saw me again. So they sent us, the three chosen ones away, by telling us, “Don’t call us, we’ll call you.” And I thought “Oh, shit! That means they aren’t calling us back!”
MB: *Laughs*
MF: Well, Gene wound up calling me. He said that he wanted me in Charlotte in two weeks from this date and hung up. He didn’t even ask me if that was ok. It was either their way, or no way. And everything was like that, they were very ugh…
MB: I believe it, because even now if you go to YouTube and check out an interview with Ole Anderson, he must be the world’s grumpiest man. *Laughs*
MF: Yeah, they take no shit.
MB: *Laughing* Yeah, I don’t know if you know the story of how he got into a lawsuit against Vince McMahon and told him off in the courtroom. HE didn’t take any grief from McMahon, either!
MF: Gene would bring in different guys for us to work out with and Don Kernodle, who was a good amateur wrestler from Elon College, he had been wrestling pro for years, I wound up working with him a lot. I also worked with Mike Rotondo who wrestled in Syracuse.
MB: Yeah, we’re going to get to him a little later. That poor guy… some of those gimmicks that he was strapped with.
MF: Oh… They killed him! They killed him!
MB: Now you send something interesting. They told you that you need to gain 20 pounds. Now what year was this again?
MF: This was in 1981.
MB: Ok. So here is my question. Now not anymore obviously, at least since 1990 or 1991, but at that particular point in time steroids were legal, and they were cheap. Had you given the use of them any consideration? What were your thoughts on steroids at that time?
MF: I had never been exposed to them. I played football all through high school and I was never exposed to them.
MB: But when you heard that they wanted you to gain weight, did you feel that you needed more of a bodybuilding physique, or that you needed steroids? Were those kind of thoughts crossing your mind?
MF: Well, yeah. When I walked into that coliseum and I look around to all the guys that were trying out and I was the 2ndsmallest guy… They weighed us in. Gene weighed everybody in, and I was like damn….. I told my dad “I don’t know…” but he told me just to go in there and wrestle and do the best I can. They never interested me (steroids)wrestling is what interested me. It didn’t matter to me how I looked, it interested me to learn how to wrestle.
MB: Ok. But did you ever feel any pressure. Something like, you didn’t want to necessarily do this, but felt like you would have to? I don’t think that most people take steroids because they just want to take steroids, but they probably feel it a necessity because they are afraid that they won’t look they way they need to look.
MF: I always looked at steroids as cheating. I always thought that I could do it on my own, and if I couldn’t do it on my own, then I don’t want it. I always adopted that attitude. I didn’t want to kiss anybody’s ass because my dad always told me to never be an ass kisser because he’s not, and he told me that if I couldn’t get it on my own ability, then don’t do it, and just accept it. I had steroids offered to me once I turned pro, though I won’t name names.
MB: Sure, I imagine that you were surrounded by it.
MF: Oh yeah, all sorts of guys were doing it, and I was around it, I saw it, and it was offered to me.
MB: Steorids have been around America (in bodybuilding at least) since the 50s, so I’m sure that in any sport, especially wrestling or a similar kind of entertainment venue, there comes a time where that is either offered to you, or thoughts of taking them cross your mind.
MF: Yeah, it crossed my mind, and it was offered to me, but I just always had that mentality that if I can’t do this on my own, then I don’t want it. I don’t want it to be handed to me, or I don’t want it to be fake. I just thought it was cheating, I really did. In later years me and Lou Thesz used to talk about this a lot. I was training guys at his school and there was this guy that told Lou, “Damn! Fleming is big naturally, and has a hell of a body, so if you could get him on a cycle of juice, he would be great.” Lou wouldn’t have anything to do with it. Lou used to look at steroid guys that would come down to his gym and work out with me and watch me stretch them. He used to tell guys that were obviously on steroids, “Hey! You could be the next Hulk Hogan!”
MB: *Laughs*
MF: Well, Lou was trying to get their money from them, by getting them to join the school, and I would get down there, and I didn’t like it because just because they were steroid guys, that didn’t mean that they could wrestle, so I would go down there and stretch them, and Lou would get mad at me! Because they wouldn’t come back! *Both Laugh* He would say, “Don’t do that anymore!”
MB: At least get the money from them first!
MF: Yes, he would say, “Get the money first!” But I dunno…I would get carried away. *Laughs*
MB: Get the money and then stretch them.
Lou Thesz and Mark Fleming Together..