Discussion in 'The Off-topic Lounge' started by Lord Vutulaki, Dec 22, 2015.
Mods close the thread I got nothing for this guy except that he broke my heart on Christmas eve.
Lister, Cassius was gi en no chance in that fight
nick diaz is my nut hugger
Huge fan of both guys.
I've got Ali.
In my defense, I alluded to the two different Alis and even Holmes and clinching being a problem for Tyson.
What's a prime Ali then? The one with better speed or better boxing? For this Jack and I seem to agree. The later legendary Ali fights are the type to give Tyson trouble.
But I still give the edge Tyson - a starter that was faster, stronger, and better movement than anyone else Ali fought for those first 4 rounds.
I see people mentioning a 1990s Tyson against holyfield as some evidence while ignoring a hidden loss on Alis record.
I'm not unhappy when someone picks Ali. There's good credible arguments to make. But I do disagree.
Exactly how was Ali a better boxer later on? Where does Jack infer that Ali was better later? As I quoted before:
"The fight I'd much rather see is Ali of the second and third Frazier fights. The one who would hold for a round, jab for a round. The one who would drag Tyson into the later rounds where he always had trouble with his breathing and with maintaining his head movement."
He said he'd rather see the later Ali vs. prime Tyson. There's nothing there to imply that he thought Ali was a better better boxer, even though he thinks Tyson could beat that version of Ali (which I obviously disagree with). I took that comment to mean he'd rather see that cause it'd be more competitive.
This idea of dragging Mike into the later rounds does not bode well for him. This is a guy who fell short every time he had to dig deep. I can't think of a fight that Tyson won where he had to overcome adversity. Can you?
In the 70's, Ali wasn't as mobile. He took more punishment, & would get into exchanges rather than being the sniper that he was early on. He showed his chin, clinch, & will. Ali didn't have to show off his chin early on cause he didn't take much damage (minus the Henry Copper fight) also had his most exciting after his comeback,. Was he a better boxer? No, just a more thrilling one.
Look at this mutherfucker in 66-67, right before his exile from boxing:
It wasn't just his speed. It was is precision & mobility. Jack said he had an erratic jab? Pfft. Maybe earlier in his career, but in his prime? Not so much. Look at him turn George Chavalo into a bobblehead doll in the first few seconds in the video above. Watch how he sets up the straight right against Cleveland Williams with that jab.
In his 10 fights from 64-67, Ali had 8 KO's/TKO's. The only ones to survive were Chavalo & Terrell. Chavalo was never knocked down in his amateur career, in his professional career, or in sparring. And Terrell held on for dear life. which the announcer pointed out.
Like I said before, I'm a huge Tyson fan, but a prime Ali slaughters a prime Tyson. I just don't see how you look at everything Ali brought to the table & pick Tyson.
But this is part of the fun. Neither one of us will ever be proven right.
@soundoff71 I am traveling and on mobile so can't give you the reply you deserve.
You make some strong points and some I'd like to disagree with. But will have tonwait.
I do want to clarify that I seem to have conflated two of my thoughts. My bigger point was that "prime" Ali by most peoples definition might be the easier fight for Tyson's styles if we are discussing the "two Alis". I believe that the slower Ali that returned would leave a style and result in drawing the fight into the later rounds. This is where I gathered some of that article agreed...again, focusing on the question of " what is a prime Ali? " was my main intention.
From that video, is it fair to say that none of those opponents offered the mobility Tyson was capable of?
The "Mike Tyson is a bully" sentiment gets brought up a lot, and I think it's silly. Mike had a lot of heart - he took a lot of punishment from a lot of world class bangers and kept going. Mentally he could come undone, but the guy had a lot of heart. Douglas beat his ass for 10 rounds, and even when he finally got knocked out he was still trying to get up and continue.
And it's not simply about who had the better career. Styles make fights, not records. If picking fights was as simple as looking at who had the better career, who fought the best opposition, who has the best resume, ect, boxing would be pretty boring because we'd know the winners before they even stepped in the ring.
That's what's beautiful about boxing. You can have a guy like Ken Norton who gets bombed out easy by punchers like Earnie Shavers and Foreman, but gives ATG slicksters like Ali and Holmes fits. It all comes down to the styles and attributes of the two athletes, and I think Tyson had the perfect style and ability to beat Ali, even though I consider Muhammad Ali the greatest HW of all time. Being the greatest of all time doesn't necessarily mean you'd beat every guy who ever lived.
And as far as Mike admitting Ali would beat him... Mike has always had that modest/humble attitude when talking about the greats. He said he would have no chance against prime Holmes too. It doesn't really mean anything.
It's not that Mike didn't have heart or will, he would just mentally doubt himself if he couldn't put guys away. If things started going bad he never really turned it around, he was frontrunner.
Mike respected the old school guys he watched tons of film. He was a true student of the game
All good @STANDWITHRAND.
Please understand that I acknowledge that I may be wrong & completely full of shit, but I have a hard time seeing both men's skills & mentality & picking Tyson.
To your point, I disagree that prime Ali's an easier fight than post-exile Ali for Tyson. He's not as mobile, & too easy to hit. I still think he wins, but doesn't look as good doing so.
Have a safe trip, & thank you for the discussion. It is refreshing to have a civil discussion like this without anyone calling each other big meanies .
@CavemanBJJ said it best: "It's not that Mike didn't have heart or will, he would just mentally doubt himself if he couldn't put guys away. If things started going bad he never really turned it around, he was frontrunner." We found out later that he had a chin & could take punishment, but that's what we're talking about. It was about his lack of ability to IMPOSE his will.
The definition of a bully is " person who uses strength or power to harm or intimidate those who are weaker." That was Mike. If that weaker person turned the tables on him, he was never able to turn it around. He'd try, but he could never rise up to the occasion.
Once again, nothing in Mike's career or mentality shows the ability to walk through the fire once he's taken to deep waters. Ali's a legend for doing just that
You bring up a good point about styles making fights. IMO prime Ali had the style to beat him: speed, footwork, a punishing jab, the ability to make him miss, the conditioning to go 15 rounds, the ability to fight outside & take advantage of his reach, an iron chin, & the ability to hit going backwards. All of that gives Mike fits.
Post-boxing, Mike has been pretty honest about who he is & was. While he has always been respectful to other greats, I think he has enough self-awareness to know that Ali would take him to places that he's never been to. Add in the mind games to the unbreakable will, & it gets even worse.
Again, this is all speculation. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Look at any of Tyson's highlights. Is it fair to say that none of Mike's opponents offered the speed, mobility, or jab Ali was capable of?
Not just respected, but had a deep understanding of their skills. He knows what's up with Ali.
I'm not arguing that. I honestly don't know but that wasn't my question, was it?
Then look at their highlights & come to your own conclusions.
How's that for an answer?
It's a non-answer. I simply asked a clinical/analytical question. It's a subjunctive theme so at some level one has to speculate analytically. Standwithrand made an EXCELLENT point regarding styles and you made an EXCELLENT point regarding Ali's ability to psychologically infiltrate his opponent's. Soooooo, if we're looking at their strengths, how would Ali have dealt with someone so deft (in his prime with i.e. with Cus) at getting inside and implementing angular attacks? My question wasn't about Mike, my question was about Ali. I concede that it's a bit silly to talk about only one person in a dance but I hope you get the gist of my question.
Okay, thanks for the clarification. That being said, my smarmy reply was more or less the answer: speed, mobility, & distance. The issue here is you're only asking part of the question: How does Mike deal with Ali's deftness...and that's just the physical part. We're not even talking about Ali's mindgames, pride, or will, and Tyson's bully mentality or lack of overcoming adversity. Just the tangibles. And in the pre-fight mind fucking & the iron will...it gets much worse
You commented that none of Ali's opponents were as mobile as Tyson. The same could be said about Tyson: none of Mike's opponents offered the speed, mobility, or jab Ali was capable of. You had to have noticed Ali's speed, footwork, jab, & ability to avoid punches. That's part of how he beats Mike: he keeps him at distance with the jab. He pot shots him coming in. He circles, dances, & makes Mike miss. Ali sets up a series of brutal right hands. He wears him down physically, frustrates Mike mentally, & takes him out somewhere in the mid to late rounds.
I've said the same thing over & over in various ways, but when you look at the entire picture, I just don't see Tyson winning this.
Again, this is all conjecture on my end, but no one's made a compelling enough case to make me reconsider my opinion.
@JohnyHendricksBeard, @BAN GUNS FOREVER, @CavemanBJJ - please help me out here.
Please see my other comments. I've addressed this more than once.
Anyone can get caught, but I don't see this happening. Henry Cooper caught young Ali fucking around. I think Ali takes Mike seriously, doesn't fuck around, & doesn't risk getting hit.
I see what you're saying regarding Ali's ability to avoid punches. Would he have been able to effectively utilize that style of evasiveness on Tyson's style? I have my doubts but maybe Ali would have been able to keep him at range the entire time....
It's not just evasiveness. Ali lands jabs & pot shots him with right hands going backwards the entire time. That takes its toll, physically, & mentally. Mike gets frustrated, Ali starts talking shit in the ring. Mike starts to break mentally. Ali keeps coming...
Tyson would have been up against one of the best heavyweights of all time, one who had never been finished early in his whole career, and do exactly that. I just don't see it.
He might have won the early rounds, but he wasn't finishing Ali, his chin was just too good - as shown by the problems he is having post boxing - and Ali would drown Tyson late, like every elite boxer he faced.
Here's an article from Lewis on how he beat Tyson, that also mentions how confident he was from sparring Tyson early on. Tyson could be outboxed, and Ali was one of the best heavyweight boxers ever.
How I beat Mike Tyson, by Lennox Lewis -
Lewis, whom is notable for being susceptible to being knocked out, also managed to survive Tyson's power, and power is the last thing to go. So, even if you say it wasn't a prime Tyson, he still had his power and it wasn't enough to knock out Lewis. I don't see how it could be enough to finish Ali.
Never saw the Lennox article, thanks for that £4 for a Reemjob. And sorry I didn't tag you new & before, but for some reason your name won' tag. I think it's cause of the £.
What's most shocking to me is the overemphasis on Tyson's attributes & how quick everyone seems to write off Ali's attributes. At his best, Tyson looked like an overwhelming force of nature, & Ali looked vulnerable in the 70's cause of the wars he was in, which I think clouds people's judgement.
I also think people are underestimating Ali's mental advantage in this match up. Now if we were talking about Louis, Dempsey, & Marciano, I wouldn't give Ali that mental advantage. But against Tyson? Ali's mind mutherfuckery is just too much to overcome.
I'm not wading through all that, lol. People seem to forget that Tyson was in his prime when Douglas put him out. They also seem to forget how poorly he fights when he's frustrated. Tyson would be going into a fight against a guy who's taller, longer, and realistically would have Tyson so rattled before the fight happened that unless he caught Ali with something in the right spot, it likely wouldn't even be a competitive fight. Strength of schedule speaks so highly in favor of Ali over Tyson, it isn't even funny.