General Michigan School Shooting, At Least 3 Students Killed

Welcome to our Community
Wanting to join the rest of our members? Feel free to Sign Up today.
Sign up

John Lee Pettimore

Further south than you
May 18, 2021
6,302
6,762
so the N Hollywood shoot-out was related to organized crime?

I don't understand why you're referencing an incident where a bunch of criminals had illegal firearms...seems to indicate that "gun control" only works on people who are already law-abiding.
Generally, yeah. The crack epidemic brought an epidemic of gun violence. And when these criminals brought overwhelming firepower to their violent robberies, the police were massively outgunned and resorted to commandeering weapons from local gun stores. Because other Western societies aren't faced with these types of weapons in common circulation, their cops are very lightly armed compared to American cops. The more guns the people have easy access to, the more guns the violent and impulsive people will have. The more guns the violent and impulsive people have, the more guns and the more trigger-happy the cops will be.

??
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
29,834
Generally, yeah. The crack epidemic brought an epidemic of gun violence. And when these criminals brought overwhelming firepower to their violent robberies, the police were massively outgunned and resorted to commandeering weapons from local gun stores. Because other Western societies aren't faced with these types of weapons in common circulation, their cops are very lightly armed compared to American cops. The more guns the people have easy access to, the more guns the violent and impulsive people will have. The more guns the violent and impulsive people have, the more guns and the more trigger-happy the cops will be.

??
how is the NHollywood shootout related to LA Gangs or the crack epidemic?
 

mysticmac

First 1025
Oct 18, 2015
14,905
17,647
No system is perfect, but the American system is obviously next to useless if the objective is to keep military style weaponry or cheap semi-automatic handguns out of the hands of mentally ill people and violent psychopaths. It is not conceivable that someone as mentally ill as Cho or Holmes has the ability to obtain those weapons in Australia or England or Germany or Denmark, either legally or illegally.



And yet, this blanket statement doesn't really hold up, does it. A teenager from a gang-infested neighbourhood in the States can easily get a Glock or a TEC-9. A teenager from a gang-ridden shithole in New Zealand (and there are many) can't.

Criminal gangs in Australia, NZ, the UK, Germany etc have access to weaponry. Sometimes serious weaponry. Of course they do. But you have to be a serious criminal with serious criminal connections to get access to those weapons. You can't be a 17 year old punk kid with $600 in his pocket. And when those weapons are used in crimes, they are used by criminals against other criminals. Because shooting a civilian is going to draw far too much heat, because random gun violence is not accepted in other Western societies like it is in the States.

But......



??
Under the US system there are rough 33k gun deaths per year. About two thirds of those are suicide, then there is gang violence, justified shootings, accidental shootings, then murders. There are also 500k-1.5M defensive uses of guns (source: CDC). Even if you take the low end of that, it is still more than an order of magnitude greater than all gun deaths. Guns help people defend themselves. The system is not useless.

You guys don't have printers...
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
29,834
also, anyone who thinks the LAPD isn't a gang isn't paying attention.
 

John Lee Pettimore

Further south than you
May 18, 2021
6,302
6,762
how is the NHollywood shootout related to LA Gangs or the crack epidemic?
It's not, really. I'm bored and got distracted on a Saturday morning, pretty much. :smile:

I mean the North Hollywood shootout was the specific impetus for the LAPD to militarise, but the same thing happened in Florida with the cocaine gangs going crazy violent, and then the military's insane hardware over-ordering so small-town sheriff's offices get ex-Iraq War battle vehicles for free...... the whole gun thing is just nuts, man.

I Googled "what can you even do" for a suitable gif meme, and for some reason this came up. So obviously, I have to post it. :smile:?



Edit: turns out the gif is from a "face muscle exercises" video. :smile:

??
 
Last edited:

John Lee Pettimore

Further south than you
May 18, 2021
6,302
6,762
Under the US system there are rough 33k gun deaths per year. About two thirds of those are suicide, then there is gang violence, justified shootings, accidental shootings, then murders. There are also 500k-1.5M defensive uses of guns (source: CDC). Even if you take the low end of that, it is still more than an order of magnitude greater than all gun deaths. Guns help people defend themselves. The system is not useless.

You guys don't have printers...
Right. Suicide is a whole other thing. Suicides in the US, particularly among men, would be much lower if gun ownership was lower. And the presence of a gun in a house means that it is statistically much more likely that a resident of that house will die by gunshot, compared to if a gun is not present. You (anyone, not you specifically, obviously) are far more likely to kill yourself or a family member with your gun than you are to kill a violent intruder with it.

??
 

mysticmac

First 1025
Oct 18, 2015
14,905
17,647
Right. Suicide is a whole other thing. Suicides in the US, particularly among men, would be much lower if gun ownership was lower. And the presence of a gun in a house means that it is statistically much more likely that a resident of that house will die by gunshot, compared to if a gun is not present. You (anyone, not you specifically, obviously) are far more likely to kill yourself or a family member with your gun than you are to kill a violent intruder with it.

??
Every house has knives. People who want to kill themselves will find a way. That stat is BS because it is impossible to measure how likely that same person would be to kill themselves without a gun.
 

Shinkicker

For what it's worth
Jan 30, 2016
10,307
13,908
That's not what was said at the press conference. They said she asked him, but just took his word for it. Nobody bothered to check his backpack.
I'm wondering if the school knew that at the time.

And I wonder about their school policy. Even if a student mentions having access to a gun here, whether on social media or in person, law enforcement gets involved even if no intent was mentioned. If it gets reported to a teacher law enforcement is notified immediately. And the student is removed from the school until all evaluations are complete.
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
29,834
It's not, really. I'm bored and got distracted on a Saturday morning, pretty much. :smile:

I mean the North Hollywood shootout was the specific impetus for the LAPD to militarise, but the same thing happened in Florida with the cocaine gangs going crazy violent, and then the military's insane hardware over-ordering so small-town sheriff's offices get ex-Iraq War battle vehicles for free...... the whole gun thing is just nuts, man.

I Googled "what can you even do" for a suitable gif meme, and for some reason this came up. So obviously, I have to post it. :smile:?



Edit: turns out the gif is from a "face muscle exercises" video. :smile:

??
i think the best cost/benefit for our limited social resources is to focus on destigmatizing mental health issues.

reducing access to guns only solves a tiny part of the problem at a cost that society couldn't bear.
 

John Lee Pettimore

Further south than you
May 18, 2021
6,302
6,762
i think the best cost/benefit for our limited social resources is to focus on destigmatizing mental health issues.

reducing access to guns only solves a tiny part of the problem at a cost that society couldn't bear.
Yeah, there's a definite argument to be made there. As well as the social safety net in general, really. Education and income /wealth inequality being key. It's a whole mess. But all the guns aren't helping.

??
 

John Lee Pettimore

Further south than you
May 18, 2021
6,302
6,762
The football player who charged the gunman to tackle him, got shot and died... 220,000 people have signed a change.org petition for the high school to rename their football stadium - Wildcat Stadium - in his honour.



??
 

mysticmac

First 1025
Oct 18, 2015
14,905
17,647
I'm wondering if the school knew that at the time.

And I wonder about their school policy. Even if a student mentions having access to a gun here, whether on social media or in person, law enforcement gets involved even if no intent was mentioned. If it gets reported to a teacher law enforcement is notified immediately. And the student is removed from the school until all evaluations are complete.
She asked him while they were at the school that morning. I took that as meaning it was in front of whichever school official they were meeting with. I don't know how the prosecutor would know about it otherwise. The parents didn't talk to the cops.

Where I grew up, everyone has guns. The schools wouldn't bat an eyelash at that.
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
29,834
She asked him while they were at the school that morning. I took that as meaning it was in front of whichever school official they were meeting with. I don't know how the prosecutor would know about it otherwise. The parents didn't talk to the cops.
i wonder why the school didn't search him.
 

Shinkicker

For what it's worth
Jan 30, 2016
10,307
13,908
She asked him while they were at the school that morning. I took that as meaning it was in front of whichever school official they were meeting with. I don't know how the prosecutor would know about it otherwise. The parents didn't talk to the cops.
Do you think the school holds any responsibility?
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
29,834
Or why law enforcement wasn't involved?
meh - search his bag, and when you find something call the cops.

i'm not a fan of involving LE in every school/parent interaction. But both the parents and the school have the right to search his property in that meeting.
 

mysticmac

First 1025
Oct 18, 2015
14,905
17,647
Like filthy said, I wouldn't call the popo without searching him first. Call them when you find something.
 

John Lee Pettimore

Further south than you
May 18, 2021
6,302
6,762
Do you think the school holds any responsibility?
Oh man, based on what is known so far, who holds some degree of responsibility? Who needs to be thinking about lawyers right now? Who should get an investigation about their actions? Who should pretty much be shitting themselves right now?



??
 

Shinkicker

For what it's worth
Jan 30, 2016
10,307
13,908
Oh man, based on what is known so far, who holds some degree of responsibility? Who needs to be thinking about lawyers right now? Who should get an investigation about their actions? Who should pretty much be shitting themselves right now?



??
I do to get what you're saying because I can't see the meme. (Or picture)
 

Shinkicker

For what it's worth
Jan 30, 2016
10,307
13,908
Like filthy said, I wouldn't call the popo without searching him first. Call them when you find something.
Ok so, this is what he was writing.

On Tuesday, a teacher found a note on Ethan’s desk and took a photo. It was a drawing of a gun pointing at the words, “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me,” McDonald said.

The parents refused to take him. The school says, "get help within 48 hours" for this child.

Law enforcement could have gotten a court order to take this kid to the hospital for an emergency psychiatric evaluation.

This child asked for help. His parents failed him and the school failed him. And the school failed to protect the other students. This kid was a clear and present danger, not a 48 hours from now danger.
 

John Lee Pettimore

Further south than you
May 18, 2021
6,302
6,762
Ok so, this is what he was writing.

On Tuesday, a teacher found a note on Ethan’s desk and took a photo. It was a drawing of a gun pointing at the words, “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me,” McDonald said.

The parents refused to take him. The school says, "get help within 48 hours" for this child.

Law enforcement could have gotten a court order to take this kid to the hospital for an emergency psychiatric evaluation.

This child asked for help. His parents failed him and the school failed him. And the school failed to protect the other students. This kid was a clear and present danger, not a 48 hours from now danger.
But instead of that, let's get him a handgun for his birthday.

??
 

mysticmac

First 1025
Oct 18, 2015
14,905
17,647
Ok so, this is what he was writing.

On Tuesday, a teacher found a note on Ethan’s desk and took a photo. It was a drawing of a gun pointing at the words, “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me,” McDonald said.

The parents refused to take him. The school says, "get help within 48 hours" for this child.

Law enforcement could have gotten a court order to take this kid to the hospital for an emergency psychiatric evaluation.

This child asked for help. His parents failed him and the school failed him. And the school failed to protect the other students. This kid was a clear and present danger, not a 48 hours from now danger.
Yeah, that's what was said at the press conference. They eventually took the drawing from him, but he altered it by then.

But, yeah, I agree someone could have stepped in with the cry for help.