Mighty Mouse: The RING Makes a DIFFERENCE

Discussion in 'Cageside - MMA Discussion' started by Haulport, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. Haulport

    Haulport Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes
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    Really good MMA grappling match. Haven't seen one of those in a while. What is definitely on display here is what a gigantic advantage for pure wrestlers the cage is and how many techniques actually get stifled by the cage...

    Wada really goes for it in this fight. Very impressive.

     
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  2. Hwoarang

    Hwoarang Well-Known Member

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    Been saying it for over a decade now, and it's not just the cage.
    Ufc is an American organisation catering to the American fighters (wrestlers).
    They can use cage to push opponent up on to take down, but you can't use it to grab and fight off take down.
    They can use it when on the ground to push opponent up on and help stifle sweeps and sub attempts but u can't pull yourself up on it or to even turn around.
    Shortened 5 Min rounds, long enough to get a take down and establish control, but much less time to survive submissions.
    Took grounded knees and kicks away so the wrestlers could shoot in with relative safety and no fear of being sprawled on and kneed or crocopped to oblivion.
    Added grounded elbows which made it harder for opponents with a wrestler on top of them.
    And made the scoring system round based, and one that heavily favours a take down even if it caused no damage or advantage.
     
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  3. WEWEREONABREAK

    WEWEREONABREAK First 100
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    Based post.

    Also, make it 2 10-minute rounds and a 3 minute break between rounds.
     
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  4. Never_Rolled

    Never_Rolled First 10,000

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    The blonde ring girl having to bend down for the pics next to boring DJ is hilarious.
     
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  5. The EZ Life

    The EZ Life Well-Known Member

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    What if every fight was just 2 rounds? And a third round tie breaker?

    That could be cool. Two 5-10 min rounds, then a tie breaker if score is equal or no finish.
     
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  6. lordofthepies

    lordofthepies Posting Machine

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    All good points. The cage's main advantage is safety and allowing for less awkward position interruptions though. It should also be acknowledged that standups and rounds nullify the wrestler's advantage to an extent, forcing more required takedowns. The cage has proven to be an effective standup tool too, even if you can't grab it. So there is some give and take, even if it still favors wrestlers.

    The most unforgivable aspect of North American MMA is not the cage but the no grounded knees. It simply distorts the purpose of original NHB rules too much. It enables people to repeatedly spam poor technique that would otherwise have devastating consequences.

    The rule just fundamentally changes the dynamics of the sport so much as to almost (almost) make it not worth existing.
     
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  7. Haulport

    Haulport Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes
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    Pride did it. Two 15 min rounds. Guys gass out. 10-5 is the way to go and 10-5-5 for champ fights.
     
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  8. Haulport

    Haulport Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes
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    I agree the absence of grounded knees and soccer kicks/stomps really makes it a completely different sport with completely different strategy.

    I still feel the cage effects the wrong things:
    • negates grappling when up against it.
    • Makes take downs easier
    • The circle(ish) shape makes it easier to run away
    • Allows wrestlers to bull rush and keep pushing until they hit the cage to aid in take downs and wall n stall
    The ring effects things also but in a positive fashion:
    • Can't bull rush
    • Can't take ur opponents hips out from under him like when pressed against the cage destroying a fighter's ability to sprawl
    • Allows strikers to cut the ring off and prevents opponents from running
     
    #8 Haulport, Aug 10, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
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  9. WoodenPupa

    WoodenPupa Member

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    Unfortunately the cage is iconic to the UFC. They love the "cage fighter" persona and the way the media and entertainment industry milks it for crazy, dangerous, tattooed criminal archetype.

    They also love the graphic novel-style psychological implications, which they milk to the utter end as well.

    You're in the CAGE, see? There's NO WAY OUT. The door gets LOCKED BEHIND YOU. TWO men enter, ONE man leaves!! It's SO brutal. Just like medieval times! See how real everything is? Covered with BLOOD! There's BLOODY MEN...muscular and DANGEROUS...brawling in a CAGE.

    That's fuckin' ILLEGAL...
     
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  10. WoodenPupa

    WoodenPupa Member

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    It's the most artificial rule, for sure. I really hate that fighters can go into some Twister game position, both hands on the mat, and feel no worry about incoming knees. I also hate that a fighter who doesn't want to stand up can lay on his back with his hands relaxed behind his head and not have to fear any kind of stomp or kick.

    The stomps I kind of understand, because they do look so bad. Same with headbutts. The rules covering those moves are somewhat artificial as well, but I can live with them. The lack of knees in a grounded position just changes the character of the fights so terribly, and I constantly think of this rule when watching fights. SO many results would be different without that weird rule in place.

    What you can do on the ground is so bizarre. Elbow but not 10-6. Make sure all shots are to the side of the head and not the back (the most frequently violated rule). If you're standing, you can kick the legs of a downed fighter, but only the legs. No knees to a fighter who merely has to assume a position that belongs in some hideous modern art museum.

    "What the FUCK are you doing?"
    "Oh, I'm, uh, insuring that I don't get kneed in the face. I do that bending over and putting my hands on the ground."

    It's been covered ad nauseum, but it's always worth pointing out that it's several times more dangerous to deliver a knee to someone running and ducking at you (as opposed to someone standing still or on all fours), as we saw in the now-famous Masvidal-Askren fight. Somehow Ben avoided damage to his face of any kind, though it wasn't clear he was even going to regain his senses for several minutes. Mike Perry was less fortunate in the Luque bout---his nose is permanently damaged, and that was made possible by his body's force (generated by a high speed ducking motion) while meeting a perfectly timed knee.
     
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  11. lordofthepies

    lordofthepies Posting Machine

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    Agree with all of this and I liked the line about the modern art exhibit. While I'm a boxing fan, I do laugh at cunts who talk about it being awesome because they 'fight like men' for a similar reason.

    Firstly, men hike their bright yellow shorts up to their tits and put pilllows on their fists before they fight? And secondly some (some - they were still awesome) of Floyd and Sweet Pea's defensive 'genius' came from a move that is not only blatantly illegal but the most retarded thing you could ever do in an actual fight - bend down below your opponent's waist to avoid getting punched.

    Obviously boxing is limited by design but the point is the more restrictions you put on offense, the more downright silly the defensive techniques will be allowed to be.

    Stomps/soccer kicks are important but make less of a difference and they're also a much, much tougher sell.

    Should any future lobbying attempt to bring in knees (and obviously I'm not optimistic), it's fundamentally important that they lobby for them alone. Then once they're in, another lobbying effort to bring in stomps could begin.
     
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  12. WoodenPupa

    WoodenPupa Member

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    LOL at the yellow shorts visual.

    Good general point about what restricting offense does. We've arrived at this weird hybrid sport that rivals Pancrase in its arbitrariness. Don't get me wrong, I liked Pancrase, but nobody marketed it as real fighting made sport. It was all just kind of sporty, with the puroresu aspect built in.

    I think this bare-knuckle stuff is closer to real fighting these days, but of course there are downsides to that spectacle.

    I'm not even sure that the paradigm or the model of what we're looking for is a "real fight" anyway---maybe that's the deeper bullshit in all this. I'd be happy with the one rule change (knees on ground) because what we really want is full-dimensionality in a combat sport. Balance. There are certain positions in skilled combat that arise again and again, and unless there's a compelling aesthetic or medical reason to ban the most natural moves that these positions demand, we shouldn't ban them (the medical part is the hard part---but solvable with data, I would think).

    I'm with Haulport on the ring as superior in the sportive sense. I think it's also superior aesthetically. Most of us are Pride fans around here, and you just can't replace the feeling those shows gave. The openness of the ring is liberating to the spectatorship and psychological unity MMA is uniquely able to give. The cage hampers these things, although the features are still there, in muted form.
     
  13. lordofthepies

    lordofthepies Posting Machine

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    The 'real fight' dilemma is an issue - there's obviously a point between allowing people to beat each to death with clubs and having a 'who gives the best cuddle' contest. But I think it's fair to say that a 'real fight' can have some basic rules, and that's fighting where the objective is to incapacitate your opponent where the likelihood of permanent damage is there, but minimal.

    While someone could say 'in a real fight, I'd just fucken gouge your eyes out bro' but by that logic you could just shoot me to death as well. If you were a normal person, you wouldn't do that because in the real world you go to jail for a long time for gouging someone's eyes out, whereas for a bar fight where nobody is seriously injured you won't (usually).

    So I have no problem with saying early UFC rules were a 'real fight' because the only things that were banned were things most people wouldn't do in a bar fight anyway. And it's fine to add some of the other rules in too that don't fundamentally change this.

    But there is some point where the sport drifts so far away from NHB, that we can all inter-subjectively recognize when its gone too far. MMA is already a watered-down version of NHB but there is a point where the watering-down would reach critical mass - if they banned submissions, then I'm guessing everyone would agree that the now shit sport we are watching no longer has any point.

    I still think the intrinsic value of MMA is that it is the closest thing we've got to real human combat. 'Balance' even only makes sense in relation to this starting point.
     
  14. tang

    tang if there's a will there's always a way

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    Cage favors wrestlers for sure. Look at all the UFC champs with wrestling background
     
  15. Haulport

    Haulport Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes
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    And yet they are against soccer kicks and grounded knees because they "look bad".............

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. Haulport

    Haulport Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes
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    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Haulport

    Haulport Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes
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    CRAZY TALK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Soccer kicks change the game like no other banned technique. I would posit it is a different sport altogether without soccer kicks even if grounded knees are legal...

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  18. Haulport

    Haulport Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes
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    Knees are not fluid enough for this kind of action:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    #18 Haulport, Aug 15, 2019 at 4:26 PM
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019 at 4:32 PM
  19. WoodenPupa

    WoodenPupa Member

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    You realize that if we go down this road, your own criteria force us to accept things like groin strikes? Tell me why we don't allow them? Talk about a game-changer. As it stands, a fighter can face an opponent standing up with his legs spread FAR apart, which if I'm targeting the groin, would be a huge invitation, and a massive liability for the guy standing? So now we already have an artificial circumstance built in to the fight. It's not as bad as putting your hands on the mat to guard from knees, but we've just decided arbitrarily to let fighters relax and not guard their groin when standing up.

    And what's the reason we don't allow groin strikes? Is there some compelling data that tells us the medical risk is just too high? You know there isn't. Groin strikes are painful, but I doubt any more risky than the knees and kicks we see. Nope. It's about something else---honor between men, and the unsightliness of the move when performed. There's a universal grimace when somebody is struck there. I will confidently say that if the move were allowed, backstage agreement would be made. "Let's not do that." -- "Agreed."

    Arguments for every single physical move available can be made. For whatever reason, you don't want to admit that there are reasons to not include them which aren't political or medical in origin. Our entire human experience is saturated in values. Ethics/morals on one hand, and aesthetics on the other. They intertwine frequently. And we avoid ugliness whenever possible, unless in some ironic venue like a modern art show. You might not think a kick to a downed fighter's head is unsightly, but many will disagree. MANY. So the question is, how many of these moves do we want to include in an MMA fight?

    Don't forget that these kicks are something I can live with. Which is to say, I appreciate their value to the contest on a technical level. For me, it's counter-balanced by the unsightliness. But it's hardly a runaway issue. If they allowed them tomorrow, I'd be okay with it. But it would be an aspect of the sport I'm not crazy about. Groin strikes, on the other hand, that's a runaway imbalance. Unacceptable. I'm sure they are with you, too. But WHY? They won't kill anybody and are unlikely to do significant damage when the other guy is wearing a groin cup.
     
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  20. WoodenPupa

    WoodenPupa Member

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    I think this starting point is hazier than it appears at first. I'm going to give this some thought because it matters a great deal what we're trying to get out of an MMA fight that we can't out of, say, boxing.
     
  21. WEWEREONABREAK

    WEWEREONABREAK First 100
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    At the end of the day, the argument is, or should be, that we make rules based on what types of contests we want to have, nothing more. If you asked most fighters, they'd probably say yes to knees and kicks to grounded opponents. If you asked them about groin shots, most would probably say no.

    Really, that should be the only criteria. Who, after all, is actually in the cage?
     
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  22. WoodenPupa

    WoodenPupa Member

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    Well, I don't know about that. Wouldn't the grappler-based fighters want no kicks to head, and standup fighters want them? The all-rounders might say yes, so that might tip the scale. I think you are making an assumption, however. But you do have an interesting take. Ask the fighters--okay. That's a great idea.

    At any rate, what I will say is that leaving it up to the fighters is pretty lopsided. It's prizefighting, and there's no prize without an audience becaue there's no revenue without them. Saying that we should make rules based on "what contests do we want to have, nothing more" first of all rather includes my point---the "we" strongly implies the audience.

    When it comes to the audience, I think it's about what feelings we DON'T want to have when watching a fight. I will admit here that my entire regard for professional fighting is tainted. I really abhor violence in real life, for the most part, and sometimes I say to myself "What in the fuck am I doing watching this?" when a gruelling fight is on TV. When it comes to fights like Perry-Luque, or say Goodridge-Herrera (is that his name---of crucifix/bouncy head fame), this emotion really turns on for me. So my feelings about all combat sports that involve consistent head trauma are complicated. I'm STILL a fan though. It's just complicated.

    I wrote a piece for. Fuck, I can't remember their name now, Easy Middle or something? Years back. I wrote what it is that I find actually attractive about MMA. I'll post it here if I can find it...
     
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  23. WoodenPupa

    WoodenPupa Member

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    I forgot to address groin shots. I agree that most fighters will say no to them (but they said yes in the early NHB shows, right? Remember Hackney...Japanese midget turned pedophile?).

    So the most important question is, WHY do people not want groin shots? I sure as hell don't, and I can tell you exactly why. It's not any possible damage they might cause. It's about the cheap-shot nature of the strike, and that it evokes feelings of low honor. I think kicks to the head of a grounded opponent are HALFWAY there. Definitely not fully there, but enough where I can say, "I can live without these. I don't insist on them."

    There isn't a perfect logic here, but there are emotions in play. That's my entire point. Trying to make rules based on logic leads to absurdities, like biting and so forth. In the end what we have are feelings, and these feelings are based on what we experience. I assign all this to the realm of aesthetics, which is probably odd for most people to hear since "aesthetics" tends to be linked only to "beauty" and its variegated forms. Some people might be thinking of aesthetics in fighting as something like an accidental ballet moment, which occurs from time to time, especially when it comes to high kicking. But in reality, anything that attracts or repels---and a million different adjectives are at hand for these experiences---is an aesthetic experience (at least partly---but it is fair to say ultimately, in many of these cases). And this is tied up with our ethics, which, it turns out, often enough have an aesthetic basis. It's somewhat circular, and hard to say when an aesthetic element swirls into an ethical, or vice versa. These things are hard to track, and difficult to separate.

    That's what I've got for now. I'll see if I can find my article from eons ago.
     
  24. WEWEREONABREAK

    WEWEREONABREAK First 100
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    I think they were saying yes to no rules, which is a macho thing to be down to do. I think if they could have precluded groin shots, they might have.
     
  25. homo fagit

    homo fagit Sexually Active Member

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    Grapplers with a good top game might be in favor of knees to the head. I think soccer kicks not so much though
     
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