Minoru Suzuki Interview (Part 4 of 5)

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William C

Active Member
Sep 6, 2015
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(Note from the author: my interview with Suzuki, along with a number of other interviews and essays, will be compiled in likely two volumes of books detailing the Fujiwara-Gumi organization, leading into the Pancrase organization)


They Stopped Showing Their Backs to Me: The Minoru Suzuki Interview

Part Four of Five: The Origins of “Pancrase”

By William Colosimo | wcolosimo@yahoo.com


William Colosimo: You clearly lost some weight by the time Pancrase debuted. Were you incorporating Wayne Shamrock’s diet and exercise plans that he showed the group?

Minoru Suzuki: This was an influence from Funaki. He first started to wonder why Shamrock had such a great physique. So, he asked Shamrock about his diet and training. Funaki was trying it out on himself. As I was not interested in that at all, I was eating the same old ramen, gyoza, and fried rice. But Funaki noticeably changed. Eventually, he recommended it to everyone. I was the last one, refusing to try it ‘til the end. I was like “I am who I am and I don’t need it.” The arrogant young Suzuki now starts to go against brothers as well. Before that, he was sucker punching the man he looked up to, then his father, and finally his brothers. He’s a shitty person!

So, I was refusing it for a long time, but there is a reason why I was in great shape at the time of the first Pancrase show. Basically, I was doing things on my own as I did not want to lose against Funaki or follow his method. I was like, “This is my own method,” but really I was just not making an effort. At that time, Pancrase’s first referee, Soichi Hiroto, came into it. He is now a trainer and has gone to Olympic Games. He was doing physical therapy on me and said to me that it would be good for us to start something new, but how would we really express to people that we are starting something new? I told him that a great match might do it or... he said “No, people will decide based on their first impression. If people see that it is something different from the first time they see it, then they will be interested and continue watching, but no one will pay it any attention if it requires explanation.” That was when I looked at my belly. And that is when I decided to change. I was going against Funaki, not following his method- but in the end, I bowed down and begged for him to teach me the method.

Taiki Yamamoto: The well known “Hybrid Body.”

Suzuki: It’s actually different from that, but when I actually did it in a strict way, I was able to change my body dramatically. This was not a method taught by Funaki. We ordered a bodybuilding kit from the U.S.

Yamamoto: Like taking meals at a certain timing with specific ingredients?

Suzuki: Yes, we both tried hard to comprehend the instructions. We were like, “Let’s give this a try.” I guess the Hybrid Body method was not established yet at this time, so we went for this one. It’s basically taking certain amounts of amino acids, vitamins, etcetera with training in between.

Yamamoto: You changed your diet as well?

Suzuki: Yes.

Yamamoto: You stopped eating ramen too?

Suzuki: Yeah, I did. Eating became work from that point on.

Colosimo: How much importance did you place on striking skills and training striking techniques for Pancrase?

Suzuki: I started training stand up striking, meaning kickboxing, when I was at Fujiwara-Gumi. After I had that infamous fight with Apollo Sugawara, Gotch asked me to leave. He told me that I was not qualified to train with him, that I was too weak. At Fujiwara-Gumi, most of the athletes went to a kickboxing gym called Hokusei gym. That was with Fujiwara. But I didn’t want to do the same thing. So, I was thinking about it and realized there was someone who might be able to help me- that was Singsak (Sosiripan). Singsak was a former Muay Thai fighter. I remembered that the old (newborn) UWF members used to go to his gym. So, I decided to contact them and asked them to teach me kickboxing. I went there by myself. I used to train together with Kensaku (“Ken-chan”) Maeda and Akeomi Nitta. Nitta has his own kickboxing gym now. He eventually went on to compete in K-1 (Editor’s Note: K-1 is a kickboxing organization that was founded in 1993). He was still a high school student back then. So, yeah, we used to train together. I went to Karasuyama (Editor’s Note: A railway line) every day after the Fujiwara-Gumi training. We trained barefoot at a park. We played Wai Khru (Editor’s Note: Or “Sarama”- music that is played during both the pre-fight rituals and the Thai boxing fights) the whole time. The lights in the park let us see. We did it the same way it’s done in Thailand. People living in the area complained about us and we went after them and everyone was watching and laughing about it.

Yamamoto: That must be the beginning stage of S.V.G. (Singsak Victory Gym)

Suzuki: Yes, it was when they just started.

Yamamoto: Kensaku Maeda was made there.

Suzuki: Yes, but he was not yet a champion at that time. Ken-chan or should I call Kensaku is the same age as me. Maybe it was when he just made the ranks in the All Japan Kickboxing Federation. He maybe hit third or fourth in the ranks. I still went to train at S.V.G. after Pancrase. Then, Singsak got angry at me and we sort of went our own ways as well. He was in my corner, but he got mad at me! I fought Maurice Smith under kickboxing rules and he told me after the fight that I am no good and that there was no kickboxer who would fall like I did, that I got knocked down because I was weak. I got pissed and was like “This old man should shut his mouth” and I went my own way (Editor’s Note: The Minoru Suzuki versus Maurice Smith rematch- held under kickboxing rules- took place on the November 8th, 1993 Pancrase card).

Yamamoto: Did you guys fix the relationship after?

Suzuki: Yeah, of course, we ended up getting along later.

Yamamoto: Did you use striking technique mainly to close the distance, or to look for the knockout?

Suzuki: Of course, I had a plan back then. There was Maurice Smith and there was Bas Rutten. These were guys with extreme striking ability. It was open hand striking as well. So, I had to think about what I could do myself to deal with that.

Colosimo: After you were taught the submission holds up through your time in Fujiwara-Gumi, did you eventually create any new setups or entries into the moves and develop them further while in Pancrase- or earlier?

Suzuki: It would be too arrogant to say that I developed a new move. It is more like reading instructions and applying them. Do you know Victor Koga, who brought Sambo to Japan? I’ve known him since high school. He is in Yokosuka (Editor’s Note: A city in Kanagawa prefecture) and was a friend of my wrestling coach. I’m bringing this back to my high school years again, but I remember seeing an arrogant foreign looking old man watching our training. He was watching with our coach and I was like “Who is this guy?” Then, he invited me to come over and he caught me in a lot of different techniques. But he said I was interesting, so it would be good for me to go against his son. So, he taught me lots of techniques and taught me how to do the “Victor roll” back then.

Yamamoto: Wow! The kneebar!

Suzuki: Yes, so I learned all the steps for how to do the kneebar when I was in high school.

Yamamoto: That is amazing!

Suzuki: Yes, straight from the source! Actually, it was a recommendation by Koga that allowed me to submit my application to NJPW.

Yamamoto: But it got rejected?

Suzuki: No, this was after high school, so I was approved. I was on my way to testing and was told to bring my application to the office and Koga even wrote a recommendation letter for me. That was to the upper management of NJPW. He told me that this guy would be in his office, so contact him and get going. So, I contacted the senior director at the time. This person had a connection with Koga from wrestling. So, he acknowledged that I was recommended by Koga, but I did take the tryout along with everyone else.

Sorry for going back and forth in the timeline, but as far as technique goes, of course there are some techniques that I changed the details on from what I learned from Fujiwara or Gotch, and there are also some techniques that I knew that they did not know as well. I would go ask Koga when I had a question. Do you know the flying armbar used in pro-wrestling? That is a technique that Koga invented when he was in the Soviet Union. It was invented along with the Victor roll. Most of the jumping techniques used in Sambo were invented by Koga. The idea was that because he did not have a physique on par with the Russians, he invented the jumping techniques to go for the submission right away. I guess you could say that he created the foundation of Sambo. I was actually the first one in pro-wrestling to go for all these. I attempted a flying armbar in NJPW and won the match, but I got yelled at in the dressing room. But it was actually Inoki who told me to go for it. He thought it was very interesting and since no one had ever done it, he told me that I should go for it. I was like, “I know people are going to yell at me!”

Yamamoto: Inoki didn’t say anything after that?

Suzuki: Inoki was working on bringing wrestlers from the Soviet Union, so he was going back and forth at that time. So, Inoki comes to the dojo to try out the techniques he learned in the Soviet Union. He tried a lot out on me, but they didn’t work well. But when he asked me to try, I was able to tap him immediately. That’s because I had already learned from Koga. When Inoki asked why I was able to get them to work, I told him about Koga and Inoki recommended me to use the moves. At that time, I was sure I would get yelled at if I used any technique other than the “Boston crab.” But Inoki insisted, so I went for it anyway. The fans went crazy, but I was yelled at in the dressing room. My senpai didn’t like what I was doing, but this reminded me that I would never be able to get to the top if I would just do what I am asked to do. It’s almost like if you get yelled at you know you are doing something right. I was like a dog biting from behind. I was just waiting for those guys to show their backs to me. Of course, the senpai could not relax around me.

Colosimo: There were nine months from the time you had your last match in Fujiwara-Gumi to the time Pancrase held their debut show. What were those nine months like? What did you have to accomplish in that time to create a new organization?

Suzuki: We were first worried about jobs. We were still in our early twenties. I had about five years of experience. We had no money. There were a few of us in the same situation and so we first discussed what to do. Then, there were people that came by who wanted to do business using us. But I can’t disclose their names. There was a popular wrestler from a popular organization who was asking us to start up a new organization. There were also a few people who told us that they would quit their current organizations to start up a new one with us. There was also a guy that proposed to bring a sponsor in for us and for him to be president in return. However, I did not trust any of them. I told them that we appreciated the intent of support, but we wanted to do everything by ourselves. Otherwise, it would be the same as before and just repeating the past. It would’ve meant nothing to use someone else’s power, so our intent was to do it by ourselves although the result could turn out to be bad. This was the start.

So, we continued like this until the start of Pancrase, like how do we even launch an organization? It was like, “Oh, we need a president!” and “But wait, we need to have a company before that!” I found a manga called The Manga Guide to How to Start a Corporationin a bookstore. I read it over and over and realized how complex it is to start a corporation.

This was when (Masami) Ozaki came into this. He was the first president of Pancrase. I first went to ask for his advice with my manga. Then, he told us that there was no way that we could start an organization. So, I came up with a good idea which was to ask Ozaki to start a corporation for us. So it started like that. He was more like a friend who we were asking for advice as he was the president of an entertainment production company.

Yamamoto: You dragged him in!

Suzuki: Yes, indeed. There is a guy called (Yasushi) Sakamoto who is still in Pancrase now, but he was a salesman for a clothing company who used to come visit a lot of people we knew. He loved pro-wrestling and I remembered him saying “I will help you out if you need anything!” at dinner one time so I called him. I mentioned what he told us and he remembered it. So, I asked him to work with us, as we were starting an organization. I asked him to quit his job right away. He was like, “Yeah, I did say I will help, but…” but I told him that a man should not change his word and made him quit.

Colosimo: Can you tell me about the conversation with Gotch that resulted in the name “Pancrase” for the new organization? Did Gotch say “Pankration” as in the ancient Greek Olympic Games? Who changed it to “Pancrase”? (Editor’s Note: Masakatsu Funaki heard Mr. Gotch say the name in an interview, and brought the topic up to him at a later date when planning his new group. After this interview with Minoru Suzuki was completed, I rediscovered video footage of the March 1992 Gotch interview in question. In it Mr. Gotch seems to use the exact term- “Pancrase”- that was taken for the new company)

Suzuki: Pancrase is a name. Gotch loved to research old documents and literature including martial arts history. He found the word Pancrase in his research. Pankration is from Greece and was pronounced differently than Pankration in the U.S. Gotch explained that Pancrase is the origin of Pankration. I am not sure if that is accurate or if it is true. If my understanding is correct, it is a technique that was used in unarmed combat in medieval times. You could say it was a form of self-defense or martial arts of that time and was called Pancrase. Anyway, Gotch explained all the historical background, but it really didn’t matter much to me. Most important was for Gotch to name it. He didn’t remember the spelling of it when I asked. The spelling became Pancrase based on what Gotch recalled, but it was spelled differently, according to some later research by other people.

There is actually a martial art called Pancrase in another country. Kakutougi Tsuushin (Editor’s Note: A Japanese martial arts magazine) found this out at one point- these guys practicing the art called Pancrase do not know that there is a fighting organization in Japan called Pancrase.

Yamamoto: If you say that the spelling of Pancrase is incorrect, you could also argue that it was a word created by Gotch.

Suzuki: That was why we were able to register and trademark the name Pancrase. Eventually, the world took Pancrase as the name.

Yamamoto: Pancrase is definitely the popular one now.

Suzuki: That’s why it was original and I thought it was kind of cool as well.

Yamamoto: That is a great story.

Suzuki: Not being right sounds like us too.

Yamamoto: So, you could say that Karl Gotch made the word as well as the spelling.

Suzuki: Yeah, Gotch gave us the name and told us that that is what we would be doing! I spoke with Funaki before starting up Pancrase and we decided to go to the U.S. first. We had no money, but decided to go to the U.S. We were planning to go to Shamrock’s and ask him to join us. We also planned to go to Gotch’s. The plan was for us to tell Gotch what we wanted to do and ask him about it. So, we went on discount flight tickets.

Yamamoto: In economy class?

Suzuki: Of course it was economy class, at a very cheap price. Maybe it was around fifty thousand yen.

Yamamoto: You guys went to Shamrock’s place first?

Suzuki: Yes, it was in Sacramento, California.

Yamamoto: Then to Florida to meet Gotch?

Suzuki: Yes, that’s right. It was a journey of just two of us.

Yamamoto: Had Shamrock already started the Lion’s Den at that time?

Suzuki: That was on the second floor of his house.

Yamamoto: It was inside the house?

Suzuki: There were about three guys training on carpet inside the house. One of them was Vernon.

Yamamoto: Vernon “Tiger” White!

Suzuki: Yes, it was actually me that made his name Tiger. I was with Funaki and Shamrock and it was so funny. There was about three guys including Vernon, and Shamrock said they are the regular guys that he trains with and that was the start of the Lion’s Den.

Yamamoto: It was the second floor of the Lion’s Den?

Suzuki: It was just an open space on the second floor. They trained on carpet. It was an attic area. It was definitely a “Den.”

As for Vernon, they were talking about how his name doesn’t sound strong. He was skinny, so we were like we should give him a strong middle name. The name Tiger was a big hit with everyone and we decided to go with it. That’s the origin of the name Vernon Tiger.
 

kneeblock

Drapetomaniac
Apr 18, 2015
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These cuts always leave me wanting more! So much great jmma history on the board lately.
 

William C

Active Member
Sep 6, 2015
131
167
I just try to break the interviews up in same size sections, roughly five pages worth each, and of course also try to end at an appropriate topic cut off. A lot of it is luck, as the first three Suzuki parts were NJPW, then UWF, then PWFG.