(Note from the author: my interview with Suzuki, along with a number of other interviews and essays, will be compiled in likely two volumes of books detailing the Fujiwara-Gumi organization, leading into the Pancrase organization)
They Stopped Showing Their Backs to Me: The Minoru Suzuki Interview
Part Five of Five: Building the Pancrase Organization and Scouting Fighters Worldwide
By William Colosimo | wcolosimo@yahoo.com
William Colosimo: Were you a part owner of the Pancrase organization at the start? Are you still an owner?
Minoru Suzuki: Not at all. Regarding funding, we needed ten million yen to start a corporation in Japan. So, to start it, we needed that much money. I sold everything I had at home including my car to a pawn shop, also for my living expenses. And I borrowed money from my parents and siblings. There was also a really nice elderly couple in Chiba who were willing to help us out. With the support of many people, we were able to collect the ten million yen to start out.
Honestly, I thought our sponsor would be pitching in and we would get the ten million yen that way, but the reality was that it was not that easy. I even thought a bank would lend me an amount like that easily. I actually went to a bank by myself for this. There is a lending section in the bank and I simply thought they would lend me money if I told them that I would be starting a company. But in the end they didn’t even lend a single yen to me. I was twenty-three years old and simply did not know how the real world operates. When I got the explanation that I needed to have collateral to borrow money, I thought, “You cheap bastards.” So, we ended up making money all on our own from scratch. We also borrowed money from many people and finally started it up as our own company. We were like, “Wow! It’s really our company!”
Do you know that our first event was held at a place called Tokyo Bay NK Hall? It was for similar reasons that it ended up being that place. We were looking into Kourakuen Hall and even thought we should go for somewhere bigger, but even Kourakuen Hall wouldn’t rent us the place for the event. Another stadium wouldn’t rent their place to us either, as there was no business record on us. It was a brand new organization with only young guys. There was no way that any place would rent to us. Another idea was to have a big company backing us like NTV (Nippon Television), but we had no connections of course. Only NK Hall said they’d give us the venue if we paid them. NK Hall was expensive as well! We were thinking we would only last for one event anyway, so we decided to just go for it and have our first event at NK Hall. I would say it was the young blood within us that made us push through.
Taiki Yamamoto: But that was how the legend was made.
Suzuki: We didn’t expect the matches to go like they did, either. There was a total of five matches with a total time of thirteen minutes! We intentionally took one hour for an intermission.
Colosimo: We covered some of this question already- but how early into the planning of Pancrase were Masami Ozaki and Takeya Oitate brought on?
Suzuki: Let’s see. (Yoshinori) Umeki was actually the first to join Pancrase as a new trainee. He is working as a referee now though. (Asking Umeki) When did Oitate start? (Editor’s Note: Pancrase head referee Yoshinori Umeki has been quietly sitting in on the interview)
Yoshinori Umeki: He was already there when I started, so I guess from the beginning.
Suzuki: That means they were in from pretty early on.
Colosimo: Did their hiring allow you and Funaki to concentrate mostly on your training, along with that of the young boys?
Suzuki: I can definitely say that we were lucky to have a great staff. As far as the staff goes, there was Ozaki and Ms. Mitsuya. She was with us since the Fujiwara-Gumi era. She moved along with us. There were only two people on staff at first, so I also helped them to count the number of tickets sold at our opening event. I also took phone calls as well. And, as we could not rent a training facility with a dorm, guys like Kunioku and Yanagisawa were sleeping in the office. So, we really did anything and everything. Oitate used to be an English teacher. We thought we could really use someone who can communicate in English, and he became a candidate. We realized it was an important role.
Colosimo: Bas Rutten has stated that in 1993 you and Funaki were scouting fighters at Chris Dolman’s dojo in the Netherlands, and you both wanted Bas to join Pancrase after you saw him stop a sparring partner with a high kick. Do you remember anything about that trip?
Suzuki: Yes, I do remember and it was just a coincidence! We flew to the Netherlands using a discount flight ticket via Seoul, Korea. So, we went to the Netherlands and a martial arts writer helped us out. He said he would introduce us to one gym and then we could go from there. So, the first person we met was named Clovis, I think. He was a manager there and we were introduced to him (Editor’s Note: Clovis Deprets, aka Don Clovis). The writer told us that he would be able to introduce us to different gyms in the Netherlands. The first gym that we visited was Mejiro Gym. Andre Mannaart was coaching there. So, both Funaki and I were trying to explain that we came over to look for a good fighter, with our poor English. Then, I don’t know why but we were asked to change, and I remember Andre Mannaart then beating us up so badly. I was like, “I came to watch, not to train!” But I did have training gear with me when he asked if I had something to change into. When I got knocked down after getting beat up, I saw a big photo of (Kenji) Kurosaki, and I knew him in person as I had met him so many times through Fujiwara. So, I was like, “This old guy!”
I was thinking with Funaki in a hotel room while eating a kabob. We ate kabobs as that was the only thing we could order and we were like, “Every day, kabobs!” “What are we going to do tomorrow?” “How about we go see that guy? That really tough guy. Let’s go see Ramon Dekkers’ place.” It took a very long time to get there. Clovis reached out to him and then we went over. Funaki and I shared what we were planning to do and Ramon Dekkers seemed very interested.
Yamamoto: There was a possibility of Ramon Dekkers competing in Pancrase?
Suzuki: Yes, there was a possibility. But he mentioned that his next kickboxing fight was already planned and he was injured as well. He did however show great interest in our idea and what we were planning to do. This was the end of the conversation, but Funaki and I kept thinking and discussing things as we were there for one week or so.
We both thought that the top guy in the Netherlands was Chris Dolman, so we agreed that we should at least go and give him a greeting. As you know, Chris Dolman was with Maeda’s group called RINGS. We did not want any political issues so the intent was to show that we were not there to fight or to scout an athlete already in RINGS. So, we went to see Dolman and were able to communicate this to him. We told him that we had no intention to pull talent over from RINGS and create a conflict, but we wanted to start our own organization and as RINGS was for heavyweights, we told Chris Dolman that we were looking for someone around our size. Then, he told us that he had some guys that fit the bill. He told us that there was training that day and we could see. He also took us to a strip club the day before. It was a place that Dolman was managing and running.
Then we went to Dolman’s dojo with the RINGS logo. Or maybe it was UWF’s. It was a complete coincidence, but I met with (Masaaki) Satake there. He was surprised as well and asked me why I was there. As I was explaining, I was thinking maybe I would get beat up again like what happened at Andre Mannaart’s. Isn’t the Netherlands story pretty interesting? (Laughter)
There was a guy called Toon Stelling and he was in some martial art. It was an art with striking, throws and submissions. He was a fight champion. Dolman wanted to introduce him. He was about our body size as well. So, we were waiting to meet Toon Stelling, and then he came in limping. He explained that he got injured and wouldn’t be able to join our upcoming event.
Then, we saw a bald guy at the gym jumping and jumping. It was for his warm up and we were like what’s up with that guy? We thought all that jumping technique might be interesting for our fights. He was able to touch his feet to the ceiling when jumping. We saw him spar against a bigger RINGS fighter, so he was being pushed but he was able to strike back so hard! Dolman told us that he was a kickboxer and didn’t have plans to compete. So, Dolman called him over and explained our situation and he was like, “Yes, I am interested and will do anything!” We invited him to Japan without thinking too much about it; that was Bas Rutten. We never thought he was that good. Our interest was that he was unique with all the jumping, so we thought it would be good for the crowd. But when it (Pancrase) started, we discovered he was really good. I have never seen anyone do open hand strikes like that with so much power! It seemed to us not so much an open hand strike like we did and not so much a punch, but it was closer to a punch. This was our encounter with Bas Rutten.
There is more to it, but that’s what our trip to the Netherlands was like. At the end, we went to the windmills and tulips for a photo. That photo went into GONG magazine. The person who introduced us for that trip was a writer who worked for GONG.
Colosimo: Can you tell me about your experience going to Australia in 1994 and scouting their fighters for Pancrase? Chris De Weaver mentioned that you were very helpful and friendly to his gym.
Suzuki: Larry Papadopoulos who also competed in Shooto used to do jiu-jitsu in Australia. I guess he was a jiu-jitsu fighter from the Machado team (Editor’s Note: The Machado family are Brazilian jiu-jitsu instructors and relatives of the famous Gracie family of Brazil). He had a dojo in Australia and we wanted to invite him to Japan. After some discussion, he told us that he had competed in jiu-jitsu but didn’t really know about what we were doing. In other words, he was asking for someone to teach him. So, in exchange, we requested to have visits to other dojos as well and stayed in Australia for about a month.
Yamamoto: As coaches?
Suzuki: As training partners. So, I trained with them every day and went to other gyms as well although I do not remember which ones. I do, however, remember meeting up with Adam Watt at the beach and having food and beer together. I don’t remember whether I trained with him or not. I did train with Larry every day in Australia. I learned the basics of jiu-jitsu from him in Australia and realized how great jiu-jitsu is as well.
Yamamoto: Did you wear a gi?
Suzuki: No, it was without a gi. Otherwise, I couldn’t use it in Pancrase. So, I learned jiu-jitsu from them, and I taught them some of our techniques like spinning to take the ankle for a heel hook and how to defend against it. It was really a skill exchange.
For about one month… there was a student of Gotch’s called Gregory Smit in Australia. He was the main event when I fought Maurice Smith in the semi-finals (Editor’s Note: The May 31st, 1994 Pancrase show). It was Funaki versus Gregory Smit. I stayed at Gregory’s house for about a month. I came up with my own training menu and ran around his house or got in touch with Larry for training. Gregory helped me with transportation as he does not train. So, I was the only one training. Yes, so I was living and training in Australia for a month. I also went to watch a pro-wrestling show that was for some reason at the local elementary school, as Gregory was in it. Gregory was originally a pro-wrestler. He went to Gotch and then joined Pancrase. I even had the local promoter scout me there. He was like “Can you be on the show? I can pay you.” (Laughter) He offered me three hundred Australian Dollars. So cheap! So, I stayed in Australia and got some networking made.
So, after being in Australia for a month, I went back to Japan, making a transfer at Narita to go to Florida to see Gotch by myself. This was all just me. I went to Tampa, Florida and contacted Thomas Puckett. He came to pick me up and we went to see Gotch together. We went to Gotch’s with no appointment for training. Gotch was like “What did you come here for?” and I told him that I came for training. He told me to go home as he was too busy. So, I asked his permission to use his equipment and trained with Thomas when Gotch was out taking his wife to the hospital. After he came back, he checked if we did everything and then he gave us the next training menu. I was there for two weeks or so, staying at a very cheap motel. That was fun. At first, Gotch was asking me where the cameraman is. He told me that all of his Japanese visitors bring a cameraman along.
Yamamoto: Going to Gotch’s was also to show the public that he is a part of it.
Suzuki: Yes, it was like branding. Thomas did take care of Gotch until the end. Anyway, Gotch was surprised that I really came by myself. I told him that I was by myself and even brought training gear. But then he told me to go home.
Yamamoto: Do you mean to go home if there is no media involved?
Suzuki: No, it meant that he had to go somewhere. So, I told him that we would keep on training until he comes back. He came back after four hours or so and let’s see, what were Thomas and I doing… I guess we were still doing some work on a bar. But then, Gotch actually took care of our training from morning to night from the next day on. He prepared training menus for us too. Gotch lived next to an orange field, and it went on forever like an endless horizon and you could see a lake on the other side. You could see telephone poles at few meter intervals. So, the menu was based on the telephone pole intervals and to complete a menu like squats and pushups. I was asking until where and was told, “Until the end where there are no more telephone poles.” I couldn’t even see the end! I did this and had to do it on the way back too! When I would be thinking of going easy, I could see Gotch still watching, as it is a straight road with no one else there. It’s a really fun memory. The story went from Australia all the way to Gotch’s. Sorry, I will have to excuse myself; pardon me for all the old stories.
They Stopped Showing Their Backs to Me: The Minoru Suzuki Interview
Part Five of Five: Building the Pancrase Organization and Scouting Fighters Worldwide
By William Colosimo | wcolosimo@yahoo.com
William Colosimo: Were you a part owner of the Pancrase organization at the start? Are you still an owner?
Minoru Suzuki: Not at all. Regarding funding, we needed ten million yen to start a corporation in Japan. So, to start it, we needed that much money. I sold everything I had at home including my car to a pawn shop, also for my living expenses. And I borrowed money from my parents and siblings. There was also a really nice elderly couple in Chiba who were willing to help us out. With the support of many people, we were able to collect the ten million yen to start out.
Honestly, I thought our sponsor would be pitching in and we would get the ten million yen that way, but the reality was that it was not that easy. I even thought a bank would lend me an amount like that easily. I actually went to a bank by myself for this. There is a lending section in the bank and I simply thought they would lend me money if I told them that I would be starting a company. But in the end they didn’t even lend a single yen to me. I was twenty-three years old and simply did not know how the real world operates. When I got the explanation that I needed to have collateral to borrow money, I thought, “You cheap bastards.” So, we ended up making money all on our own from scratch. We also borrowed money from many people and finally started it up as our own company. We were like, “Wow! It’s really our company!”
Do you know that our first event was held at a place called Tokyo Bay NK Hall? It was for similar reasons that it ended up being that place. We were looking into Kourakuen Hall and even thought we should go for somewhere bigger, but even Kourakuen Hall wouldn’t rent us the place for the event. Another stadium wouldn’t rent their place to us either, as there was no business record on us. It was a brand new organization with only young guys. There was no way that any place would rent to us. Another idea was to have a big company backing us like NTV (Nippon Television), but we had no connections of course. Only NK Hall said they’d give us the venue if we paid them. NK Hall was expensive as well! We were thinking we would only last for one event anyway, so we decided to just go for it and have our first event at NK Hall. I would say it was the young blood within us that made us push through.
Taiki Yamamoto: But that was how the legend was made.
Suzuki: We didn’t expect the matches to go like they did, either. There was a total of five matches with a total time of thirteen minutes! We intentionally took one hour for an intermission.
Colosimo: We covered some of this question already- but how early into the planning of Pancrase were Masami Ozaki and Takeya Oitate brought on?
Suzuki: Let’s see. (Yoshinori) Umeki was actually the first to join Pancrase as a new trainee. He is working as a referee now though. (Asking Umeki) When did Oitate start? (Editor’s Note: Pancrase head referee Yoshinori Umeki has been quietly sitting in on the interview)
Yoshinori Umeki: He was already there when I started, so I guess from the beginning.
Suzuki: That means they were in from pretty early on.
Colosimo: Did their hiring allow you and Funaki to concentrate mostly on your training, along with that of the young boys?
Suzuki: I can definitely say that we were lucky to have a great staff. As far as the staff goes, there was Ozaki and Ms. Mitsuya. She was with us since the Fujiwara-Gumi era. She moved along with us. There were only two people on staff at first, so I also helped them to count the number of tickets sold at our opening event. I also took phone calls as well. And, as we could not rent a training facility with a dorm, guys like Kunioku and Yanagisawa were sleeping in the office. So, we really did anything and everything. Oitate used to be an English teacher. We thought we could really use someone who can communicate in English, and he became a candidate. We realized it was an important role.
Colosimo: Bas Rutten has stated that in 1993 you and Funaki were scouting fighters at Chris Dolman’s dojo in the Netherlands, and you both wanted Bas to join Pancrase after you saw him stop a sparring partner with a high kick. Do you remember anything about that trip?
Suzuki: Yes, I do remember and it was just a coincidence! We flew to the Netherlands using a discount flight ticket via Seoul, Korea. So, we went to the Netherlands and a martial arts writer helped us out. He said he would introduce us to one gym and then we could go from there. So, the first person we met was named Clovis, I think. He was a manager there and we were introduced to him (Editor’s Note: Clovis Deprets, aka Don Clovis). The writer told us that he would be able to introduce us to different gyms in the Netherlands. The first gym that we visited was Mejiro Gym. Andre Mannaart was coaching there. So, both Funaki and I were trying to explain that we came over to look for a good fighter, with our poor English. Then, I don’t know why but we were asked to change, and I remember Andre Mannaart then beating us up so badly. I was like, “I came to watch, not to train!” But I did have training gear with me when he asked if I had something to change into. When I got knocked down after getting beat up, I saw a big photo of (Kenji) Kurosaki, and I knew him in person as I had met him so many times through Fujiwara. So, I was like, “This old guy!”
I was thinking with Funaki in a hotel room while eating a kabob. We ate kabobs as that was the only thing we could order and we were like, “Every day, kabobs!” “What are we going to do tomorrow?” “How about we go see that guy? That really tough guy. Let’s go see Ramon Dekkers’ place.” It took a very long time to get there. Clovis reached out to him and then we went over. Funaki and I shared what we were planning to do and Ramon Dekkers seemed very interested.
Yamamoto: There was a possibility of Ramon Dekkers competing in Pancrase?
Suzuki: Yes, there was a possibility. But he mentioned that his next kickboxing fight was already planned and he was injured as well. He did however show great interest in our idea and what we were planning to do. This was the end of the conversation, but Funaki and I kept thinking and discussing things as we were there for one week or so.
We both thought that the top guy in the Netherlands was Chris Dolman, so we agreed that we should at least go and give him a greeting. As you know, Chris Dolman was with Maeda’s group called RINGS. We did not want any political issues so the intent was to show that we were not there to fight or to scout an athlete already in RINGS. So, we went to see Dolman and were able to communicate this to him. We told him that we had no intention to pull talent over from RINGS and create a conflict, but we wanted to start our own organization and as RINGS was for heavyweights, we told Chris Dolman that we were looking for someone around our size. Then, he told us that he had some guys that fit the bill. He told us that there was training that day and we could see. He also took us to a strip club the day before. It was a place that Dolman was managing and running.
Then we went to Dolman’s dojo with the RINGS logo. Or maybe it was UWF’s. It was a complete coincidence, but I met with (Masaaki) Satake there. He was surprised as well and asked me why I was there. As I was explaining, I was thinking maybe I would get beat up again like what happened at Andre Mannaart’s. Isn’t the Netherlands story pretty interesting? (Laughter)
There was a guy called Toon Stelling and he was in some martial art. It was an art with striking, throws and submissions. He was a fight champion. Dolman wanted to introduce him. He was about our body size as well. So, we were waiting to meet Toon Stelling, and then he came in limping. He explained that he got injured and wouldn’t be able to join our upcoming event.
Then, we saw a bald guy at the gym jumping and jumping. It was for his warm up and we were like what’s up with that guy? We thought all that jumping technique might be interesting for our fights. He was able to touch his feet to the ceiling when jumping. We saw him spar against a bigger RINGS fighter, so he was being pushed but he was able to strike back so hard! Dolman told us that he was a kickboxer and didn’t have plans to compete. So, Dolman called him over and explained our situation and he was like, “Yes, I am interested and will do anything!” We invited him to Japan without thinking too much about it; that was Bas Rutten. We never thought he was that good. Our interest was that he was unique with all the jumping, so we thought it would be good for the crowd. But when it (Pancrase) started, we discovered he was really good. I have never seen anyone do open hand strikes like that with so much power! It seemed to us not so much an open hand strike like we did and not so much a punch, but it was closer to a punch. This was our encounter with Bas Rutten.
There is more to it, but that’s what our trip to the Netherlands was like. At the end, we went to the windmills and tulips for a photo. That photo went into GONG magazine. The person who introduced us for that trip was a writer who worked for GONG.
Colosimo: Can you tell me about your experience going to Australia in 1994 and scouting their fighters for Pancrase? Chris De Weaver mentioned that you were very helpful and friendly to his gym.
Suzuki: Larry Papadopoulos who also competed in Shooto used to do jiu-jitsu in Australia. I guess he was a jiu-jitsu fighter from the Machado team (Editor’s Note: The Machado family are Brazilian jiu-jitsu instructors and relatives of the famous Gracie family of Brazil). He had a dojo in Australia and we wanted to invite him to Japan. After some discussion, he told us that he had competed in jiu-jitsu but didn’t really know about what we were doing. In other words, he was asking for someone to teach him. So, in exchange, we requested to have visits to other dojos as well and stayed in Australia for about a month.
Yamamoto: As coaches?
Suzuki: As training partners. So, I trained with them every day and went to other gyms as well although I do not remember which ones. I do, however, remember meeting up with Adam Watt at the beach and having food and beer together. I don’t remember whether I trained with him or not. I did train with Larry every day in Australia. I learned the basics of jiu-jitsu from him in Australia and realized how great jiu-jitsu is as well.
Yamamoto: Did you wear a gi?
Suzuki: No, it was without a gi. Otherwise, I couldn’t use it in Pancrase. So, I learned jiu-jitsu from them, and I taught them some of our techniques like spinning to take the ankle for a heel hook and how to defend against it. It was really a skill exchange.
For about one month… there was a student of Gotch’s called Gregory Smit in Australia. He was the main event when I fought Maurice Smith in the semi-finals (Editor’s Note: The May 31st, 1994 Pancrase show). It was Funaki versus Gregory Smit. I stayed at Gregory’s house for about a month. I came up with my own training menu and ran around his house or got in touch with Larry for training. Gregory helped me with transportation as he does not train. So, I was the only one training. Yes, so I was living and training in Australia for a month. I also went to watch a pro-wrestling show that was for some reason at the local elementary school, as Gregory was in it. Gregory was originally a pro-wrestler. He went to Gotch and then joined Pancrase. I even had the local promoter scout me there. He was like “Can you be on the show? I can pay you.” (Laughter) He offered me three hundred Australian Dollars. So cheap! So, I stayed in Australia and got some networking made.
So, after being in Australia for a month, I went back to Japan, making a transfer at Narita to go to Florida to see Gotch by myself. This was all just me. I went to Tampa, Florida and contacted Thomas Puckett. He came to pick me up and we went to see Gotch together. We went to Gotch’s with no appointment for training. Gotch was like “What did you come here for?” and I told him that I came for training. He told me to go home as he was too busy. So, I asked his permission to use his equipment and trained with Thomas when Gotch was out taking his wife to the hospital. After he came back, he checked if we did everything and then he gave us the next training menu. I was there for two weeks or so, staying at a very cheap motel. That was fun. At first, Gotch was asking me where the cameraman is. He told me that all of his Japanese visitors bring a cameraman along.
Yamamoto: Going to Gotch’s was also to show the public that he is a part of it.
Suzuki: Yes, it was like branding. Thomas did take care of Gotch until the end. Anyway, Gotch was surprised that I really came by myself. I told him that I was by myself and even brought training gear. But then he told me to go home.
Yamamoto: Do you mean to go home if there is no media involved?
Suzuki: No, it meant that he had to go somewhere. So, I told him that we would keep on training until he comes back. He came back after four hours or so and let’s see, what were Thomas and I doing… I guess we were still doing some work on a bar. But then, Gotch actually took care of our training from morning to night from the next day on. He prepared training menus for us too. Gotch lived next to an orange field, and it went on forever like an endless horizon and you could see a lake on the other side. You could see telephone poles at few meter intervals. So, the menu was based on the telephone pole intervals and to complete a menu like squats and pushups. I was asking until where and was told, “Until the end where there are no more telephone poles.” I couldn’t even see the end! I did this and had to do it on the way back too! When I would be thinking of going easy, I could see Gotch still watching, as it is a straight road with no one else there. It’s a really fun memory. The story went from Australia all the way to Gotch’s. Sorry, I will have to excuse myself; pardon me for all the old stories.
