Modern MMA and Self Defence are both more Shootboxing than BJJ

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WhiteCollarBrawler

Active Member
Amateur Fighter
Jun 16, 2018
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Takedowns and takedown defense (tachiwaza) are considered standup skills in both wrestling and judo, as opposed to ground grappling (newaza).

Most MMA fights today are essentially shootboxing matches, and the only fighters who are able to consistently impose prolonged ground grappling exchanges at the elite level are extremely well conditioned wrestlers like Khabib, Kamaru, and Colby.

Even in self defense situations, we all know now that boxing, wrestling and judo make a lot more sense than rolling around on the ground, especially when you don't know how many assailants might jump you.

BJJ is actually the lowest priority, with stand up striking, takedowns and throws all being more essential to modern MMA and self defense. But, it's the most expensive to learn.

I think this marketing narrative needs to be questioned. Quality professional level boxing, wrestling and judo gyms should be more lucrative and accessible. Instead, most accessible fight gyms offer a generic BJJ + Muay Thai curriculum, with boxing and wrestling relegated to secondary status (if taught at all).
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
29,834
Takedowns and takedown defense (tachiwaza) are considered standup skills in both wrestling and judo, as opposed to ground grappling (newaza).

Most MMA fights today are essentially shootboxing matches, and the only fighters who are able to consistently impose prolonged ground grappling exchanges at the elite level are extremely well conditioned wrestlers like Khabib, Kamaru, and Colby.

Even in self defense situations, we all know now that boxing, wrestling and judo make a lot more sense than rolling around on the ground, especially when you don't know how many assailants might jump you.

BJJ is actually the lowest priority, with stand up striking, takedowns and throws all being more essential to modern MMA and self defense. But, it's the most expensive to learn.

I think this marketing narrative needs to be questioned. Quality professional level boxing, wrestling and judo gyms should be more lucrative and accessible. Instead, most accessible fight gyms offer a generic BJJ + Muay Thai curriculum, with boxing and wrestling relegated to secondary status (if taught at all).
you are making the most common of assumptions, which is that you will enjoy a fair fight. IME, that rarely happens.

I think it's better to start your training at 'what if it all goes wrong and somebody is sitting on your chest trying to punch or choke you unconscious?' I know when I walked out of my first BJJ class, I could make a real attempt at getting out of the worst-case scenario. Definitely not something I could confidently say after years of wrestling, judo, boxing, and TKD.
 

WhiteCollarBrawler

Active Member
Amateur Fighter
Jun 16, 2018
56
83
you are making the most common of assumptions, which is that you will enjoy a fair fight. IME, that rarely happens.

I think it's better to start your training at 'what if it all goes wrong and somebody is sitting on your chest trying to punch or choke you unconscious?' I know when I walked out of my first BJJ class, I could make a real attempt at getting out of the worst-case scenario. Definitely not something I could confidently say after years of wrestling, judo, boxing, and TKD.
Not sure how you're defining the term "fair fight." If multiple reasonably capable combatants are holding you down on the ground, your chances are pretty much zero, with or without BJJ. At most, you would be using BJJ sweeps and escapes to get back to your feet to run or strike, not throwing up triangle chokes and stuff like that. You should run, and if running fails, keep it standing and maneuver your position so you're facing one person at a time as much as possible.

If you're competing in MMA, and you get an opponent who has vastly superior striking AND wrestling, the correct choice is to not take that fight in the first place. Unless you're a champion and have no choice. Your chances of winning an MMA match against someone with much better striking and wrestling is also pretty much nil, and you or your management should know better than to accept such a match up.

BJJ is useful for survival if you're being overwhelmed by one single attacker, and your striking, takedown defense, and takedowns have all failed you. It's the tool of last resort, not the go-to tool.

In every other scenario, whether it's self defense against multiple attackers, or an MMA match against a 50:50 opponent, Shootboxing is much higher priority than BJJ.

Do you think you could do better than Brian Ortega? 2 random cops with some training vs. Brian Ortega:
 

WhiteCollarBrawler

Active Member
Amateur Fighter
Jun 16, 2018
56
83
In my experience, and no offense to anyone, only people who haven't fought before say stuff like: "I'll fight anyone anytime, and if that person is beating me up and holding me down, I'll just use jiujitsu to survive and win."

Every fighter who's been through the grind ducks bad match ups unless the pay is very high, picks and chooses their fights. We talk about ducking fights all the time. Jiujitsu is not an esoteric, unfamiliar skill set anymore. Chances are, that guy on top beating you up is just as good at jiujitsu, or better. It's not a weak person's tool to bail you out of a fight with a superior opponent in 2019.
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
29,834
Not sure how you're defining the term "fair fight." If multiple reasonably capable combatants are holding you down on the ground, your chances are pretty much zero, with or without BJJ. At most, you would be using BJJ sweeps and escapes to get back to your feet to run or strike, not throwing up triangle chokes and stuff like that. You should run, and if running fails, keep it standing and maneuver your position so you're facing one person at a time as much as possible.

If you're competing in MMA, and you get an opponent who has vastly superior striking AND wrestling, the correct choice is to not take that fight in the first place. Unless you're a champion and have no choice. Your chances of winning an MMA match against someone with much better striking and wrestling is also pretty much nil, and you or your management should know better than to accept such a match up.

BJJ is useful for survival if you're being overwhelmed by one single attacker, and your striking, takedown defense, and takedowns have all failed you. It's the tool of last resort, not the go-to tool.

In every other scenario, whether it's self defense against multiple attackers, or an MMA match against a 50:50 opponent, Shootboxing is much higher priority than BJJ.

Do you think you could do better than Brian Ortega? 2 random cops with some training vs. Brian Ortega:
that's two cops that have been training BJJ. that's from the GST course.

you don't always get to decide what fights you take. And a fair fight is the first sign of a tactical failure. Start your training from 'everything has failed you' - because that's the most likely scenario when you start - and work your way back.

but if you're really scared for your safety, take the $100/month you'd spend on self-defense classes and buy a gun.
or move to a nicer part of town. or get a car so you're not taking the train...whatever.

self-defense classes are a poor investment in personal safety.
 

WhiteCollarBrawler

Active Member
Amateur Fighter
Jun 16, 2018
56
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that's two cops that have been training BJJ. that's from the GST course.

you don't always get to decide what fights you take. And a fair fight is the first sign of a tactical failure. Start your training from 'everything has failed you' - because that's the most likely scenario when you start - and work your way back.

but if you're really scared for your safety, take the $100/month you'd spend on self-defense classes and buy a gun.
or move to a nicer part of town. or get a car so you're not taking the train...whatever.

self-defense classes are a poor investment in personal safety.
That’s like saying soldiers and marines should master MMA and knife fighting as a priority in case air support fails, their guns malfunction, and they’re stuck somewhere naked fighting with their bare hands.

It’s just not how fighting works when there is a lot at stake. You spend your most time practicing skills that will be used the most, not the small niche skill set that will be used when “all else fails.”

I’ve been jumped by 10 gang members while alone, and what allowed me to get out of there on my own terms was the fact that they could not unbalance me and throw me to the ground. I stayed on my feet, defended takedowns, threw some punches, and got out of there.

Prioritizing Shootboxing over BJJ is not assuming a “fair fight.” If anything, you’re assuming that 2 reasonably athletic and strong guys, who are willing to engage you in combat on the street, will not be able to deal with your jiujitsu bottom game. You should find 2 athletic high school seniors, start on the ground from bottom position, with each of them pinning down 1 arm or leg, and see if you can beat them.
 

WhiteCollarBrawler

Active Member
Amateur Fighter
Jun 16, 2018
56
83
And no, a gun doesn’t guarantee your safety, it escalates the situation. You better be prepared to shoot as soon as you draw if that’s your plan. Incidents like George Zimmerman & Trayvon Martin happen when one guy carries a gun around thinking he’s untouchable, and forgets that someone else can grab the gun or try to disarm him. I also happen to live in a state where open / concealed carry are both illegal unless you have a permit, which they only grant to people like armored truck security guards.
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
29,834
That’s like saying soldiers and marines should master MMA and knife fighting as a priority in case air support fails, their guns malfunction, and they’re stuck somewhere naked fighting with their bare hands.

It’s just not how fighting works when there is a lot at stake. You spend your most time practicing skills that will be used the most, not the small niche skill set that will be used when “all else fails.”

I’ve been jumped by 10 gang members while alone, and what allowed me to get out of there on my own terms was the fact that they could not unbalance me and throw me to the ground. I stayed on my feet, defended takedowns, threw some punches, and got out of there.

Prioritizing Shootboxing over BJJ is not assuming a “fair fight.” If anything, you’re assuming that 2 reasonably athletic and strong guys, who are willing to engage you in combat on the street, will not be able to deal with your jiujitsu bottom game. You should find 2 athletic high school seniors, start on the ground from bottom position, with each of them pinning down 1 arm or leg, and see if you can beat them.
so yeah, if you're a 20-something dude that goes out to the bar or clubs and finds yourself in fights...sure.

but if you're in a place where you get jumped by 10 gang members, 'what self-defense style' is the least of your bad decisions.
and I think you have a really weird idea of BJJ for self-defense. You think I'm pulling guard against two athletic guys trying to fight me?

if you get in a fight, your self-defense has already failed you.
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
29,834
And no, a gun doesn’t guarantee your safety, it escalates the situation. You better be prepared to shoot as soon as you draw if that’s your plan. Incidents like George Zimmerman & Trayvon Martin happen when one guy carries a gun around thinking he’s untouchable, and forgets that someone else can grab the gun or try to disarm him. I also happen to live in a state where open / concealed carry are both illegal unless you have a permit, which they only grant to people like armored truck security guards.
a gun levels the playing field against many more kinds and quantities of dangerous attackers, and it does it orders of magnitude faster than "shootboxing" for orders of magnitude more people. You think the 46 yo single mom is going to be better off with a .380 or a wicked left hook?

and if your state won't let you have a gun, instead of spending all your money on MMA classes, save up your money and move to a state where you can reasonably protect yourself.
 

WhiteCollarBrawler

Active Member
Amateur Fighter
Jun 16, 2018
56
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so yeah, if you're a 20-something dude that goes out to the bar or clubs and finds yourself in fights...sure.

but if you're in a place where you get jumped by 10 gang members, 'what self-defense style' is the least of your bad decisions.
and I think you have a really weird idea of BJJ for self-defense. You think I'm pulling guard against two athletic guys trying to fight me?

if you get in a fight, your self-defense has already failed you.
It was in a foreign country, at a shopping center in a very affluent area. The most affluent area in the entire country, actually. There was no reason for me to think that Apple stores, Starbucks, and Dolce and Gabanna were operating next to gang operated establishments. Entered a karaoke type place for some drinks with friends, and found out the establishment is gang operated and their scam is overcharging you on stuff like apple juice and fruit platters (no alcohol involved). I decided I was going to leave without getting ripped off.

All this talk about guns and moving to different places is really getting off topic. This is an MMA forum, and if your rebuttal of my opinion of BJJ for MMA and self defense is “carry a gun” or “move to a different state where concealed carry is more accessible” then there isn’t much to talk about.

You can carry a gun, live in a pro-gun state, and train BJJ. To each their own.