Pride scoring is awesome + i'll tell you for why

[jimmy boogaloo]

whoever comes closest to finishing, wins, pretty much. inflicting damage and inducing signs of suffering is of the highest importance.

tonight I was watching some mma that gave me nothing. so I chucked on a pride DVD. #17 Hendo/Ninja Rua.

Rua won the first two rounds with takedowns (one heavy slam), control and chipping away with shots.

Hendo then bashed the shit out of him with right hands, had him bleeding, wincing and looking fucked. HENDO WINS.

I like that. makes sense. it's also how you would score a street fight

 

[BenAskrensStrikingcoach]

It is the best system for scoring MMA in my opinion. Probably the best rule set too, if elbows were allowed as well. Only bad thing about prides set up was the ring, and that really only affected the grappling negatively.

 

[Sheepdog]

Hendo-Ninja was an example of the problem with Pride scoring, but I'm guessing that's why you picked it to stir shit.

The great flaw with Pride scoring is recency bias, like in Hendo-Ninja. The benefit of the 10-9 system is it makes fighters fight hard for most portions of the fight and go for finishes at the end if they need to, knowing they can't just win the last 5 minutes on points and fool the judges.

But in general I still agree that Pride scoring is better. Better to have pure subjectivity then end up with distortions based on rigidly adding multiple subjective scores. Too often guys who everyone knows clearly lost a fight were 'deserved' winners under the 10-9 system.

 

[Rambo John J]

It is pretty sad to see a guy pouring it on late and dominating and "losing" on points

Points system was from boxing and has no real place in MMA IMO

Vegas and the Paying customer want/need a winner...but the fact is that many fights are closer to a draw and have no real "winner"

 

[Robbie Hart]

 

[jimmy boogaloo]

Hendo-Ninja was an example of the problem with Pride scoring, but I'm guessing that's why you picked it to stir shit.

ha you've clocked my MO but not trolling on this occasion. I couldn't remember who won and thought that Dan should have done, based on it being pride, him being fine and Ninja almost dying.

different to 10 point must, which sucks.

not a perfect example, but years ago I was grappling with this competative asshole before class. he controlled mostly and was much better than me. but after about 10 minutes, he fucked up, gave me his foot, I nearly twisted it off and he tapped.

he said how about we call that a draw, I said fine because I didn't care, but was laughing on the inside. his control did nothing, and I put the hurt on him. JIMMY BOOGALOO WINS

 

[Filthy]

I like 'whole-fight' scoring if there are no rounds.

But if you're going to take a break and get some advice in the middle of the fight, it should be scored as individual mini-fights.

 

[jimmy boogaloo]

why

 

[Haulport]

It is the best system for scoring MMA in my opinion. Probably the best rule set too, if elbows were allowed as well. Only bad thing about prides set up was the ring, and that really only affected the grappling negatively.

How can you say that a ring affects grappling when in wrestling or BJJ going out of bounds is just the same as hitting the ropes. Actually, it's better because in GRAPPLING TOURNEYS it's an auto restart but in MMA it isn't auto and you get time to work...

 

[Haulport]

I like 'whole-fight' scoring if there are no rounds.

But if you're going to take a break and get some advice in the middle of the fight, it should be scored as individual mini-fights.

Kinda like the NFL, NBA, Baseball, etc.

OH WAIT...................

 

[BenAskrensStrikingcoach]

How can you say that a ring affects grappling when in wrestling or BJJ going out of bounds is just the same as hitting the ropes. Actually, it's better because in GRAPPLING TOURNEYS it's an auto restart but in MMA it isn't auto and you get time to work...

Good point.

I always felt that those restarts slowed down the fight and the ropes got in the way a lot of the time, especially right before the fighters were brought back to the middle.


I like the ring better all the same.

 

[D241]

Your example of Pride scoring was to use a fight that literally could have been a draw or gone either way lol

UFC 1 had it right. Finish or draw. Fans have eyes. Fans can tell when a fighter dominates another that ends up in a draw result.

 

[Rambo John J]

Your example of Pride scoring was to use a fight that literally could have been a draw or gone either way lol

UFC 1 had it right. Finish or draw. Fans have eyes. Fans can tell when a fighter dominates another that ends up in a draw result.

If I was MMA god

Only finishes are Wins...If you can't finish then it is unfinished

Guarantee we would see more finishes and records would mean a lot more



Bonus.....Judges would not be fucking with fighters paychecks, and "hometown"/"homecountry"/"hyped fighter" bias would be gone.

 

[WoodenPupa]

I abandoned this subject a few years ago because I was losing my mind and trying to create the best possible scoring system was only making it worse. I found out what I already knew, which is that there is no way to circumvent or simply pre-vent the human will to point-fight and play the system for its minimum reward over and over while refusing to take risks.

I still generally think that special rewards, like Fight of the Night and so on, while they can't prevent minimax type game-theorizing point fighters, have wasted potential. I see no reason why many more kinds of awards can't be devised, not so much as incentives, but as rewards after the fact. And of course, if a fighter chooses to see one of these awards as an incentive, then so much the better. In some cases, perhaps many, an incentive might change the way the fighter fights, and for a boring fighter, this is a good thing, at least from a fan perspective. On the downside, some fighters might lose fights they otherwise might have coasted through by point-fighting, but I don't see that happening too often, and in any case, that's on the fighter.

Possible rewards:

Lionheart Award (exceptional will to fight despite injury, fatigue, or being outgunned)
Gunslinger Trophy (any first round finish, with possible special One-Minute version available).
Legs of Doom (exceptional leg-kick prowess demonstrated, causing mobility problems in other fighter, special leg kick finish version too)

Crap, I gotta jam, but maybe I'll continue this. There is a bit of a video game feel to this, which I kind of dig even though I'm not a game player
these days. No bonus should be less than 50k, and multiple awards should be possible, as long as they aren't truly redundant.

Later gents...

 

[aghof]

I abandoned this subject a few years ago because I was losing my mind and trying to create the best possible scoring system was only making it worse. I found out what I already knew, which is that there is no way to circumvent or simply pre-vent the human will to point-fight and play the system for its minimum reward over and over while refusing to take risks.

I still generally think that special rewards, like Fight of the Night and so on, while they can't prevent minimax type game-theorizing point fighters, have wasted potential. I see no reason why many more kinds of awards can't be devised, not so much as incentives, but as rewards after the fact. And of course, if a fighter chooses to see one of these awards as an incentive, then so much the better. In some cases, perhaps many, an incentive might change the way the fighter fights, and for a boring fighter, this is a good thing, at least from a fan perspective. On the downside, some fighters might lose fights they otherwise might have coasted through by point-fighting, but I don't see that happening too often, and in any case, that's on the fighter.

Possible rewards:

Lionheart Award (exceptional will to fight despite injury, fatigue, or being outgunned)
Gunslinger Trophy (any first round finish, with possible special One-Minute version available).
Legs of Doom (exceptional leg-kick prowess demonstrated, causing mobility problems in other fighter, special leg kick finish version too)

Crap, I gotta jam, but maybe I'll continue this. There is a bit of a video game feel to this, which I kind of dig even though I'm not a game player
these days. No bonus should be less than 50k, and multiple awards should be possible, as long as they aren't truly redundant.

Later gents...

Golden Booty Award: WMMA fighter who provides the best ass shots in the course of the evening. The fans must be taught that groundwork can be entertaining, and how better than this?

 

[homo fagit]

Kinda like the NFL, NBA, Baseball, etc.

OH WAIT...................

Tennis and volleyball are scored similarly to the round by round scoring. I can't think of many other sports that do so

 

[D241]

The best system is to totally re-think outside the box and try to forget how everything currently is and has been, flawed....

Every major sport has a season. UFC is all year long. Instead of championship belts, make a million dollar "of the year" award for all weight classes. The fighter who has the most impressive year that year for his/her respective weight class, is crowned the 2020 Fighter of the year.

Finish or draw

Fight cards are more tournament oriented. Still only one fight instead of multiple fights in one night, but it's spread out throughout the year.

January 2020 you have two big cards, where say you get 155 and 170lb fighters. Take the top seven ranked of each weight class and make match making based on similar ranking. A 7th ranked fighter who fights the 5th ranked fighter and loses to the 5th ranked fighter, can still fight later in the year for purposes of getting a ranking for next year/season, as well as being a replacement fighter. The 7th ranked fighter's next fight, could be six months later in June where he fights the winner of the 8th vs 10th ranked fighter, which could have took place in February or March.

I've put a lot of thought into it and it works out well for all parties. Promotion gives a better product with much higher incentive to not miss fights due to injury. Fans get a better product with more finishes as well as a more stable "system" each year to really see who is the best at their weight for that particular year. Fighters don't have to worry about getting jumped ahead of as their fight match making will be purely performance based.

A system like this would truly be bad ass and I honestly can't think of any flaws. Sure you're going to have fighter injuries, but as I already mentioned there's more incentive to not miss important fights and you still can have replacement fights as they currently offer.

 

[WoodenPupa]

Golden Booty Award: WMMA fighter who provides the best ass shots in the course of the evening. The fans must be taught that groundwork can be entertaining, and how better than this?

Dana would probably go for this and sell it as some kind of objective metric.

 

[Haulport]

Your example of Pride scoring was to use a fight that literally could have been a draw or gone either way lol

UFC 1 had it right. Finish or draw. Fans have eyes. Fans can tell when a fighter dominates another that ends up in a draw result.

Finish or draw incentivizes fighters to fight for a draw when they feel they might lose. It turns into horrible fights like Royce/Ken 2.

We must LEARN from the past......

 

[jimmy boogaloo]

two things which enter the mind of the public while deciding who won:

1) signs of facial damage

2) who was winning at the end and which fighter was very glad to reach the final bell.

you didn't see the fight, guy lost a decision, walks up to you with a smashed face - you assume he lost, automatically. but it plays no part in the scoring, for several reasons, not least physical and racial differences. as the whiteboy from Manchester will show signs of damage more readily than a much darker skinned fighter. still, there is something to think about there

also, is it not a bit stupid that a fighter can pour out his energy for the first 2 rounds, then cling on through a beating for the last round, and win? quite frankly the fighter who is struggling at the end should be penalised.

score the fights like there is an additional round, not used. if they were to fight an additional round, and one fighter would obviously be fucked (ninja) then they should be scored down

 

[so long]

whoever comes closest to finishing, wins, pretty much. inflicting damage and inducing signs of suffering is of the highest importance.

tonight I was watching some mma that gave me nothing. so I chucked on a pride DVD. #17 Hendo/Ninja Rua.

Rua won the first two rounds with takedowns (one heavy slam), control and chipping away with shots.

Hendo then bashed the shit out of him with right hands, had him bleeding, wincing and looking fucked. HENDO WINS.

I like that. makes sense. it's also how you would score a street fight

Yo, not trying to argue, I'm just curious about your opinion:

> do you think that Shogun-Hendo-1 would have had to be scored differently under Pride scoring?

I think the Pride judges got it right more often.
wasnt that also the time where in the ufc one takedown almost won you the round? Is it possible that Pride valued damage oder takedowns?
I think that the Pride scoring also 'appears' better because of more smashmatches, more finishes, the fan favourite won the decision anyway, less outrage culture complaining about judging, less fights in total where judging fuckups could happen and, but here I don't know - in UFC you would sometimes get those split decisions where 2 guys have, say, a draw and one guy has it 30-27 that was not made public in Pride, no?
Also they simply didn't make a big fuzz about it I guess and life went on.

Another thing, totally unlogical but IMO they should also put in a clause where in title matches the challenger really has to bring it and cannot win the title by the slightest of margins...

And every foul should be penalized scoringwise, intentional or not.

 

[D241]

Finish or draw incentivizes fighters to fight for a draw when they feel they might lose. It turns into horrible fights like Royce/Ken 2.

We must LEARN from the past......

You must LEARN to read a full quote or realize if you read it and only quote part of it, criticizing a part that was addressed with the other part of my quote you cut off, that you will be called out on it

Seriously though, I just now realized I didn't address something so I'm glad you made your post and hopefully this addresses your post and concern to yours and everyone's satisfaction.

Sometimes a fight will end up in a draw even if both fighters are actively fighting for a finish. Take Shogun/Hendo 1 for example, both those guys were giving it there all and no one would suggest either fighter was okay with a draw.

Promoters will make match ups after a draw, based on performance. If #7 ranked fighter fought #10 ranked fighter and #7 dominated but couldn't finish, he would get a future opponent who is slightly higher ranked than #10 due to the performance. Now if #7 fought #10 and had a slight edge and backpeddled the last few minutes of a somewhat close fight, #7's next fight could be against #9 or #10th ranked opponent.

Finishes add importance to the system. Rankings are more important as well. So therefor by coasting to performances that have you as coming out on top even in fights with no finish, this is someone who more than likely won't be fighting top 5 guys at the end of the year for a chance at that year's million dollar tournament prize.

 

[D241]

Finish or draw incentivizes fighters to fight for a draw when they feel they might lose. It turns into horrible fights like Royce/Ken 2.

We must LEARN from the past......

Also Ken vs Royce 2 would never have played out now like it did then. Referee stand ups are a lot more common now.

 

[Haulport]

Also Ken vs Royce 2 would never have played out now like it did then. Referee stand ups are a lot more common now.

Ken would Wall n Stall him instead of LnP...

 

[kneeblock]

I think as fans it's easy to lose sight of the fact that fighting is a job and that nearly everyone who fights does so to make a living. There's a false notion out there that people who don't finish don't do so because they don't "take risks," but the relationship between risk and finishes is dubious at best. In fact, most finishes result out of circumstances that are relatively low risk, usually when a fighter technically outmatches their opponent at a key moment or is just much more skilled in a particular area. The idea that taking more risks leads to finishes assumes that most finishes come when people meet in the middle and swing for the fences or when they forego position and just dive for submissions haphazardly. Neither of these approaches make logical fighting sense. Most MMA fighters today are just simply a lot more skilled and tactical than the people we grew up watching. They know more about how to hit and not get hit and how to dominate position to open up possibilities for strikes or submissions. To ask someone to abandon the best practices of their profession is illogical, especially when losing comes with much more long term harsh financial penalties than any win bonus typically gives you. I know it's entertainment, but fans just have to get smarter and find a way to be entertained outside of flash KOs and flying armbars. If it happens, it happens.