General Prosecutors overrule sheriff and charge man with manslaughter in "stand your ground" case

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Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
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Is verbally calling somebody out for illegal and unethical Behavior "seeking a confrontation"?

I agree that the shooting was not justified.

You said he wasn't pushed out of nowhere. The implication was that either the pushing was justified/expected or that he saw it coming. The pushing was not justified and he did not see it coming. From his standpoint there is no reason for him to expect to be pushed like that... Hence out of nowhere.
Yes - he could have called the non-emergency police number, taken a picture of the license plate, and filled out a police report. He initiated the confrontation, and propagated it. That wasn't a 5 second conversation about how it's illegal and unethical to park in a handicapped spot. It seemed to be bit of an ass-chewing. I don't think he would have been so impolite if it was a 60 year old white woman without a placard in the parking spot...but that's conjecture on my part.

It just brings up the ethics of interacting with people when you have a firearm on you.

Regarding the push, he drew the weapon as a response to the push and put sights on the aggressor immediately, but he did not shoot. A jury must be convinced that he acted reasonably in that situation. The jury will have to decide if every time someone gets shoved and falls down if they have a right to engage in the absence of an imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death.

Imagine if entering a 6-digit code on your phone would kill whoever you were looking at. If someone shoved you to the ground, and then behaved as in this video, would you be justified in taking the phone out of your pocket and typing that 6-digit code? Because that's what happened here. As soon as the weapon was brandished, the attacker ceased all (non-verbal) indications of aggression. I'm sure the defense will say that when the shover stepped to turn around and walk away, the poor frightened rabbit thought he was taking a step forward and shot him.

That might be enough to wiggle through the presumption of innocence and achieve acquittal, but the shooter is still a murderer. He acted unethically in initiating and failing to deescalate the situation, because he did it with the knowledge that if the situation escalated he might have to use deadly force.

Does anyone really think the shooter would have been initiated and persisted in this confrontation if he was unarmed and the shover was the one parked in the handicapped spot?
 

Splinty

Shake 'em off
Admin
Dec 31, 2014
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Yes - he could have called the non-emergency police number, taken a picture of the license plate, and filled out a police report. He initiated the confrontation, and propagated it. That wasn't a 5 second conversation about how it's illegal and unethical to park in a handicapped spot. It seemed to be bit of an ass-chewing.
The driver, to this day, states, "I told him I am free to park wherever I want".
Do you think that it would have been an "ass chewing" if she didn't attempt to justify a shameful behavior?

How did he "propagate" it [the conversation about the handicap parking spot]?
Did he make her park illegally in a way that blocks handicap citizens from accessing their rightful spot? Is her trashy response of, "I am free to park wherever I want" not propagating it more than the guy that correctly points out, "you're parked illegally in a handicap parking space".
Did he make her get out of her car? Isn't that "propagating it" more than him standing at a distance?

It just brings up the ethics of interacting with people when you have a firearm on you.
I agree. BUT...
Since when do gun owners have a requirement to NOT calmly tell a person from a distance that they are breaking a law that harms others? What responsibility did he have at that point beyond the rest of us? He never had a chance to deescalate/escalate when SHE got out her car and her boyfriend pushed him "out of nowhere". Until that point, gun owner did zero wrong legally...or ethically imo.

Given his past history, I have no doubt he was happy to have the chance to shoot in defense...which is why he shot after the pause anyways. Clearly I'm no fan of the gun owner. But that's neither here nor there. Identifying solely the time period before the push, the time which the gun holder initiated contact, I find zero illegal or unethical or escalating about his behavior that should happen with or without a gun. Distant verbal conversation is off limits if you're armed? Not imo.
 

maurice

Posting Machine
Oct 21, 2015
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I don't think a jury would be sympathetic to the shooter. Chewing out a total stranger who is a woman with children is considered bad behavior by pretty much everybody I know. Best practice is to comment while walking away . . . or maybe just STFU and MYOB.
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
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The driver, to this day, states, "I told him I am free to park wherever I want".
Do you think that it would have been an "ass chewing" if she didn't attempt to justify a shameful behavior?

How did he "propagate" it [the conversation about the handicap parking spot]?
Did he make her park illegally in a way that blocks handicap citizens from accessing their rightful spot? Is her trashy response of, "I am free to park wherever I want" not propagating it more than the guy that correctly points out, "you're parked illegally in a handicap parking space".
Did he make her get out of her car? Isn't that "propagating it" more than him standing at a distance?



I agree. BUT...
Since when do gun owners have a requirement to NOT calmly tell a person from a distance that they are breaking a law that harms others? What responsibility did he have at that point beyond the rest of us? He never had a chance to deescalate/escalate when SHE got out her car and her boyfriend pushed him "out of nowhere". Until that point, gun owner did zero wrong legally...or ethically imo.

Given his past history, I have no doubt he was happy to have the chance to shoot in defense...which is why he shot after the pause anyways. Clearly I'm no fan of the gun owner. But that's neither here nor there. Identifying solely the time period before the push, the time which the gun holder initiated contact, I find zero illegal or unethical or escalating about his behavior that should happen with or without a gun. Distant verbal conversation is off limits if you're armed? Not imo.
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
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Splinty @Splinty

He initiated a confrontation. Once his chastising was met with "Hey Buddy Fuck You", he as an ethical responsibility to recognize that further engagement may lead to violence - and he has deadly force at his disposal. People do rude and harmful things all day, every day. The shooter saw the behavior and chose to engage in a situation he should reasonably expect to be contentious. Ever confronted someone about their parking job and had them thank you for pointing out the error of their ways? It doesn't happen. Do you think the shooter would have engaged with the parking violator if it was the shover, and the shover was open-carry? I don't. He picked a target that he thought he could 'alpha' and shame.

But none of that matters in the legal discussion. When reasonable people disagree on the lawfulness of an action, we impanel a jury and make a finding of fact. Based on the video I've seen (only), I would convict of manslaughter. It wasn't premeditated, but it was an unlawful killing.
 

BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
60,549
56,270
Yes. The sheriff's decision to not arrest was not correct, and his reasons were immediately identified as bullshit by the representatives who drafted the legislation, the lobbyists who supported it, and legal scholars around the US.
Are they relieving the sheriff of his duties?
 

psychicdeath

Member
Jan 21, 2015
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Yes - he could have called the non-emergency police number, taken a picture of the license plate, and filled out a police report. He initiated the confrontation, and propagated it. That wasn't a 5 second conversation about how it's illegal and unethical to park in a handicapped spot. It seemed to be bit of an ass-chewing. I don't think he would have been so impolite if it was a 60 year old white woman without a placard in the parking spot...but that's conjecture on my part.

It just brings up the ethics of interacting with people when you have a firearm on you.

Regarding the push, he drew the weapon as a response to the push and put sights on the aggressor immediately, but he did not shoot. A jury must be convinced that he acted reasonably in that situation. The jury will have to decide if every time someone gets shoved and falls down if they have a right to engage in the absence of an imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death.

Imagine if entering a 6-digit code on your phone would kill whoever you were looking at. If someone shoved you to the ground, and then behaved as in this video, would you be justified in taking the phone out of your pocket and typing that 6-digit code? Because that's what happened here. As soon as the weapon was brandished, the attacker ceased all (non-verbal) indications of aggression. I'm sure the defense will say that when the shover stepped to turn around and walk away, the poor frightened rabbit thought he was taking a step forward and shot him.

That might be enough to wiggle through the presumption of innocence and achieve acquittal, but the shooter is still a murderer. He acted unethically in initiating and failing to deescalate the situation, because he did it with the knowledge that if the situation escalated he might have to use deadly force.

Does anyone really think the shooter would have been initiated and persisted in this confrontation if he was unarmed and the shover was the one parked in the handicapped spot?
"Does anyone really think the shooter would have been initiated and persisted in this confrontation if he was unarmed and the shover was the one parked in the handicapped spot?"

That question has no bearing whatsoever on the case. It doesn't matter at all if he would or would not have started the argument if he was armed or not armed. What matters is his response to being assaulted.

Yes, he could have called the police instead of starting an argument about the parking place. Just because he chose a less sensible course of action does not in any way negate his right to defend himself when physically attacked. Once again, getting into an argument over a handicapped spot is stupid, not illegal. Physically assaulting someone because they are in an argument with someone else is both stupid and illegal. Once assaulted and with a larger younger opponent above him, he had justification to use deadly force in defense of his life.

The "he shouldn't have argued over the parking space so he was not justified in the shooting" logic is akin to saying "the poor guy was shot for shoplifting" when some kid shoplifts, then attacks the store employee who caught him and starts beating him over the head with a blunt object (let's say a crowbar) pulled from a nearby shelf. A witness who happens to be a concealed carrier tells him to stop and ends up shooting the guy when he keeps beating the employee. In this hypothetical case, the shoplifter was shot for trying to kill the store employee, not for shoplifting. In the case in question, the deceased was shot for assaulting and posing a credible threat to the life of the shooter, not for parking in a handicapped spot. Arguing over a parking space does not justify an assault. Once assaulted, the events leading up to the assault have no bearing on the right of the shooter to defend himself.

If you are carrying a weapon, it is prudent to avoid confrontation. Prudence is not a legal requirement, however. There is no legal obligation to avoid all potentially confrontational situations if you are armed. He was well within his rights to chastise the person wrongfully parking in a handicapped spot. It was unwise and a bit of a dick move, but perfectly legal.

Your six digit killer phone app fantasy is nonsensical. No such thing exists, so it could not be "what happened here". What did happen is the man was assaulted and responded to that assault with a legally carried firearm. From the time he drew until the time he shot was approximately two seconds. The assailant turning away began at about the same time he was shot, so would have no significance in his shoot/no-shoot decision. At the time of the shot he was looking at the shooter, and in fact was shot in the chest, not the side. Decreased situational awareness and decreased physical performance under extreme stress are real things, so it is highly unlikely the shooter knew the assailant was starting a turn at the time he committed to the shot

Let's look at the things that had to have happened during the two-second window from the time the shooter drew the gun until he shot. A study of trained police officers found that the go/no-go decision time averaged 0.56 seconds, meaning the average time it took officers in the test to decide to shoot or not shoot was over half a second. There goes a quarter of the two second window. In the same study, the average time for trained police officer to stop pulling a trigger was 0.35 seconds, and most fell within a range of 0.10 to 0.60 seconds. It is safe to assume that a likely untrained older civilian who had just been assaulted likely fell above the average time, so using the 0.35 as a minimum is reasonable, and the defense team could probably convince the jury 0.50 seconds is likely as a "point of no return" on the trigger pull.. Added together - the time for the shooter to decide to shoot, and the time it would take him to stop the trigger pull if he would have perceived the threat had ended [which the defense is pretty much guaranteed to assert that the shooter never had this perception] is about a full second. This means that what matters is the shooter's perception and the assailant's actions a second before the shot was fired, not the instant the bullet hit.

Life does not include a pause feature to allow you to get all the details of a life or death situation as it unfolds. All the shooter's defense team has to do is claim that at the time he shot - or more accurately, the time he decided to shoot - he was reasonably in fear for his life or grievous injury. The defense team does not have to prove this assertion. Instead it is up to the prosecution to disprove it - not convince the jury that maybe he wasn't in fear at the time, or even probably wasn't in fear - but actually disprove it.beyond a reasonable doubt. This is a very high standard, and proving that a person who was legally justified in using deadly force had to have known that the attacker was no longer a threat, decide not to shoot, and stop a trigger pull within a two second window, while under extreme duress following a physical attack, seems next to impossible.
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
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"Does anyone really think the shooter would have been initiated and persisted in this confrontation if he was unarmed and the shover was the one parked in the handicapped spot?"

That question has no bearing whatsoever on the case. It doesn't matter at all if he would or would not have started the argument if he was armed or not armed. What matters is his response to being assaulted.

Yes, he could have called the police instead of starting an argument about the parking place. Just because he chose a less sensible course of action does not in any way negate his right to defend himself when physically attacked. Once again, getting into an argument over a handicapped spot is stupid, not illegal. Physically assaulting someone because they are in an argument with someone else is both stupid and illegal. Once assaulted and with a larger younger opponent above him, he had justification to use deadly force in defense of his life.

The "he shouldn't have argued over the parking space so he was not justified in the shooting" logic is akin to saying "the poor guy was shot for shoplifting" when some kid shoplifts, then attacks the store employee who caught him and starts beating him over the head with a blunt object (let's say a crowbar) pulled from a nearby shelf. A witness who happens to be a concealed carrier tells him to stop and ends up shooting the guy when he keeps beating the employee. In this hypothetical case, the shoplifter was shot for trying to kill the store employee, not for shoplifting. In the case in question, the deceased was shot for assaulting and posing a credible threat to the life of the shooter, not for parking in a handicapped spot. Arguing over a parking space does not justify an assault. Once assaulted, the events leading up to the assault have no bearing on the right of the shooter to defend himself.

If you are carrying a weapon, it is prudent to avoid confrontation. Prudence is not a legal requirement, however. There is no legal obligation to avoid all potentially confrontational situations if you are armed. He was well within his rights to chastise the person wrongfully parking in a handicapped spot. It was unwise and a bit of a dick move, but perfectly legal.

Your six digit killer phone app fantasy is nonsensical. No such thing exists, so it could not be "what happened here". What did happen is the man was assaulted and responded to that assault with a legally carried firearm. From the time he drew until the time he shot was approximately two seconds. The assailant turning away began at about the same time he was shot, so would have no significance in his shoot/no-shoot decision. At the time of the shot he was looking at the shooter, and in fact was shot in the chest, not the side. Decreased situational awareness and decreased physical performance under extreme stress are real things, so it is highly unlikely the shooter knew the assailant was starting a turn at the time he committed to the shot

Let's look at the things that had to have happened during the two-second window from the time the shooter drew the gun until he shot. A study of trained police officers found that the go/no-go decision time averaged 0.56 seconds, meaning the average time it took officers in the test to decide to shoot or not shoot was over half a second. There goes a quarter of the two second window. In the same study, the average time for trained police officer to stop pulling a trigger was 0.35 seconds, and most fell within a range of 0.10 to 0.60 seconds. It is safe to assume that a likely untrained older civilian who had just been assaulted likely fell above the average time, so using the 0.35 as a minimum is reasonable, and the defense team could probably convince the jury 0.50 seconds is likely as a "point of no return" on the trigger pull.. Added together - the time for the shooter to decide to shoot, and the time it would take him to stop the trigger pull if he would have perceived the threat had ended [which the defense is pretty much guaranteed to assert that the shooter never had this perception] is about a full second. This means that what matters is the shooter's perception and the assailant's actions a second before the shot was fired, not the instant the bullet hit.

Life does not include a pause feature to allow you to get all the details of a life or death situation as it unfolds. All the shooter's defense team has to do is claim that at the time he shot - or more accurately, the time he decided to shoot - he was reasonably in fear for his life or grievous injury. The defense team does not have to prove this assertion. Instead it is up to the prosecution to disprove it - not convince the jury that maybe he wasn't in fear at the time, or even probably wasn't in fear - but actually disprove it.beyond a reasonable doubt. This is a very high standard, and proving that a person who was legally justified in using deadly force had to have known that the attacker was no longer a threat, decide not to shoot, and stop a trigger pull within a two second window, while under extreme duress following a physical attack, seems next to impossible.
you're arguing the defense's case. I get their case. But in the world you're describing, every act of violence is justifiably met with murder.
In the world you're describing, every person who gets shoved has the right to kill the person who shoved them.

Because there's no way, in 2 seconds from the time the weapon was AIMED to moment the first shot was fired, for a human to make a cognitive threat assessment. What if I accidentally bump in to someone and they fall down? A person who's been knocked to the ground cannot possibly be cognitive enough to identify a threat, even if they're cognitive enough to draw and aim?
 

psychicdeath

Member
Jan 21, 2015
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you're arguing the defense's case. I get their case. But in the world you're describing, every act of violence is justifiably met with murder.
In the world you're describing, every person who gets shoved has the right to kill the person who shoved them.

Because there's no way, in 2 seconds from the time the weapon was AIMED to moment the first shot was fired, for a human to make a cognitive threat assessment. What if I accidentally bump in to someone and they fall down? A person who's been knocked to the ground cannot possibly be cognitive enough to identify a threat, even if they're cognitive enough to draw and aim?
No, in the world I'm describing - which by the way is the real world United States in 2018, the law states that if a person is in fear for their life, they are justified in using deadly force in self defense. Your fantasy world where ever person knows the thought processes and can tell what that assailant is going to do a second or so before he does it exists only in your imagination.
 

maurice

Posting Machine
Oct 21, 2015
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the law states that if a person is in fear for their life, they are justified in using deadly force in self defense
LOL. No it doesn't. If it did, paranoid people could legally kill anybody.

The actual law has been correctly stated several times in this thread.
 

Jesus X

4 drink minimum.
Sep 7, 2015
28,791
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I don't think he will be convicted of manslaughter in the gunshine state. seems like he did something out of the norm of a regular stand your ground case or scenario to have a prosecutor go after him like that. I'm guessing there was some video footage the prosecutor watched to bring charges.

 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
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No, in the world I'm describing - which by the way is the real world United States in 2018, the law states that if a person is in fear for their life, they are justified in using deadly force in self defense. Your fantasy world where ever person knows the thought processes and can tell what that assailant is going to do a second or so before he does it exists only in your imagination.
That's not the law. The law is not that if you're scared you get to kill.

According to the law, in the Florida, of the United States, in 2018 - is that your fear has to be reasonable.
Shooting someone who is backing away from you with outstretched arms isn't reasonable.
 
M

member 1013

Guest
LOL. No it doesn't. If it did, paranoid people could legally kill anybody.

The actual law has been correctly stated several times in this thread.
Oh no you don’t

This is my ground and I’m standing on it

You are scaring me


*shoots maurice*
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
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And let's all be clear about what happened. This video starts when Drejka steps out of his truck. CNN and other news outlets show video that starts where he whips a U-Turn behind her and pulls up in the T-bone position to her driver door.

Then he spends 20 seconds pacing around the car, looking at the plates. He sees 2 children in the car.

Then engages in a 'conversation' that lasts 90 seconds. Watch his body language, watch the reactions of the other people coming and going from the store. Drejka is engaged in a loud and heated discussion with a woman, holding a concealed firearm, with 2 children in his line of fire. According to witness statements, one of them told McGlockton that he might need to get out there and intervene. That's 90 seconds where Drejka could have walked away at any moment.

McGlockton walks up, driver sees and gets out of her car. Drejka, still with two children in his line of fire and completely fixated on the woman, takes an aggressive posture and "stands his ground". McGlockton shoves, and Drejka falls down. Hard to tell how hard he shoved, but Drejka was perpendicular to the shove and toppled.

Drejka draws his weapon. He steadies his aim with the second hand as the woman bails to protect her children. McGlockton immediately takes two steps backward and stretches his arms away from his body. He begins to turn and Drejka fires, striking him in the chest. Just over two seconds have elapsed since Drejka drew.

Without knowing any more history, I don't think Drejka was behaving like a reasonable person. I don't give him the benefit of that doubt when you ask if I think his decision to kill was reasonable, specifically because of his behavior in the sequence that led up to the killing
 

Filthy

Iowa Wrestling Champion
Jun 28, 2016
27,507
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tldr;

I don't think Drejka's emotional response to seeing someone park in a handicap spot was reasonable, and I don't find any reasons to think his fear for his life was reasonable.
 

Freeloading Rusty

Here comes Rover, sniffin’ at your ass
Jan 11, 2016
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Like George Zimmerman - they never had a case against him to begin with, they just tried him because of the public outrage.
Good thing George Zimmerman went on to prove his critics wrong. Ol’ Georgie has been such an upstanding law obiding citizen since.
 
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Shinkicker

For what it's worth
Jan 30, 2016
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That's not the law. The law is not that if you're scared you get to kill.

According to the law, in the Florida, of the United States, in 2018 - is that your fear has to be reasonable.
Shooting someone who is backing away from you with outstretched arms isn't reasonable.
If you believe some people, Cops do it all the time.

Lol