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BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
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The far right has never existed in Canadian politics and neither has the far left. It's a very centrist country but to claim the Conservatives are on the left of anything is simply to reveal your lack of knowledge of the Canadian political scene.
Then why are they all (Conservatives included) Pro-gay rights, Pro-life, Pro public health care, Pro social programs, Pro immigration, etc? Canada, like Europe is center at most, but generally ranges from left to very far left. The Conservatives abandoned traditional right wing notions long ago, more specifically while Brian Mulroney was PM, but I digress. The Conservatives, or yourself can call parties whatever you want, but there are definitions for left and right wing, and none of the Canadian parties falls very far (if at all) right of center.

You'd be hard-pressed to support your claim these are "far left" countries
Yeah, most of Europe isn't far left, lol.
 

brooksie4

Active Member
Jan 15, 2017
101
78
Excuse me from what? lol

You changed your words anyway. No sense in arguing if you're going to change your stance on the fly.



You went from "directly inspired" to "among the influences."
Yep, that's not a contradiction. I believe he was inspired by Trump, among other influences. You're really struggling here.
 

brooksie4

Active Member
Jan 15, 2017
101
78
Then why are they all (Conservatives included) Pro-gay rights, Pro-life, Pro public health care, Pro social programs, Pro immigration, etc? Canada, like Europe is center at most, but generally ranges from left to very far left. The Conservatives abandoned traditional right wing notions long ago, more specifically while Brian Mulroney was PM, but I digress. The Conservatives, or yourself can call parties whatever you want, but there are definitions for left and right wing, and none of the Canadian parties falls very far (if at all) right of center.



Yeah, most of Europe isn't far left, lol.
If your claim is that most of Europe is "far left" I guess the only thing remaining is to ask what you mean by "far left". Most of the world doesn't see it that way, so you're a bit of an outlier. Might want to explain why.
 
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BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
60,547
56,268
If your claim is that most of Europe is "far left" I guess the only thing left is to ask what you mean by "far left". Most of the world doesn't see it that way, so you're a bit of an outlier. Might want to explain why.
Because most people don't actually know what the definitions of "left" and "right" are. Here are core left values: "ideas such as freedom, equality, fraternity, rights, progress, reform, and internationalism,"

"Political scientists and other analysts regard the Left as including anarchists,[16][17]communists, socialists and social democrats,[18]left-libertarians, progressives, and social liberals"
 

brooksie4

Active Member
Jan 15, 2017
101
78
Then why are they all (Conservatives included) Pro-gay rights, Pro-life, Pro public health care
They aren't. You will find Conservatives that oppose all of those things. They aren't the majority of the party but they do exist. It's important to remember that THIS Conservative Party of Canada is actually a re-branding of the party Mulroney led, which was called the "Progressive Conservatives". When they lost an election badly, reduced to two seats nationwide, panic set in. A very right wing party called "Reform", led by Preston Manning jointed with the Prog. Conservatives to form the present day Conservative party of Canada and the influence of that merger left the modern Conservatives with the group that had previously been the Reform party, resulting in a move to the right. Today's Conservatives are more right wing than they were in Mulroney's day.

That said, I don't think you understand the paradigms. They are not the same in Canada. For example, being pro-immigration does not mean you're on the left of the Canadian political spectrum. This is a country that's pro-immigration. We argue about how many and where they come from but there are no anti-immigration parties in Canada. We want them, we need them and the vast majority of Canadians agree with that, as survey after survey has shown. Same with Pro-gay rights. Canada supports human rights, gays are human, you do the rest. It's not a big left/right divide here, hard as that may be for some Americans to understand. Public health care? Again, overwhelmingly supported across the political spectrum. Lots of debate about how to manage it, almost none about whether we should have it.
 

brooksie4

Active Member
Jan 15, 2017
101
78
Okay, champ. Best of luck on your quest in being better than us. :)

That's your problem, you simply don't get it. It's not about being "better". You're not discussing anything, you're competing. It's not a competition. When I say Canada doesn't want to join in the American hate-fest, that's what I mean. Better? My personal view is that you are a better country, or at least capable of being a better country, than you are right now. That's my view of a political situation. You're acting as if you've been personally insulted and that's not something I can help you with, I'm afraid.
 

brooksie4

Active Member
Jan 15, 2017
101
78
They aren't. You will find Conservatives that oppose all of those things. They aren't the majority of the party but they do exist. It's important to remember that THIS Conservative Party of Canada is actually a re-branding of the party Mulroney led, which was called the "Progressive Conservatives". When they lost an election badly, reduced to two seats nationwide, panic set in. A very right wing party called "Reform", led by Preston Manning jointed with the Prog. Conservatives to form the present day Conservative party of Canada and the influence of that merger left the modern Conservatives with the group that had previously been the Reform party, resulting in a move to the right. Today's Conservatives are more right wing than they were in Mulroney's day.

That said, I don't think you understand the paradigms. They are not the same in Canada. For example, being pro-immigration does not mean you're on the left of the Canadian political spectrum. This is a country that's pro-immigration. We argue about how many and where they come from but there are no anti-immigration parties in Canada. We want them, we need them and the vast majority of Canadians agree with that, as survey after survey has shown. Same with Pro-gay rights. Canada supports human rights, gays are human, you do the rest. It's not a big left/right divide here, hard as that may be for some Americans to understand. Public health care? Again, overwhelmingly supported across the political spectrum. Lots of debate about how to manage it, almost none about whether we should have it.
I also noticed you said "better than us". Which us? I'm prepared to defend my own positions without having to call on imaginary friends for support. How about you?
 

brooksie4

Active Member
Jan 15, 2017
101
78
Because most people don't actually know what the definitions of "left" and "right" are. Here are core left values: "ideas such as freedom, equality, fraternity, rights, progress, reform, and internationalism,"

"Political scientists and other analysts regard the Left as including anarchists,[16][17]communists, socialists and social democrats,[18]left-libertarians, progressives, and social liberals"
Right but the question was about your continued use of the qualifier "far" to, I assume, differentiate from just "the left".
 

IschKabibble

TMMAC Addict
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Jan 15, 2015
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I also noticed you said "better than us". Which us? I'm prepared to defend my own positions without having to call on imaginary friends for support. How about you?
You're all over the place. You entered the conversation with far too much emotion and had to back-peddle. It's okay. It happens.

And "us" refers to our respective countries.
 

BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
60,547
56,268
Right but the question was about your continued use of the qualifier "far" to, I assume, differentiate from just "the left".
Far left would be someone (or a group) who checks all the boxes of what constitutes left wing values, much the same way that in order to be "Far right" you would need to categorically oppose all of them. Communism is farthest left, Facism farthest right. Where you fall in between those 2 extremes determines where you fall on the spectrum. Nothing in Canada falls very far on the right (if at all) as all parties promote varying support of those leftist concepts at their cores. Again, these are not my opinions, these are definitive facts. Although parties are dynamic and change their stances on issues, the spectrum itself is static. Anyone who believes that falling farthest right on a spectrum of leftist groups makes you "Far Right" has no concept of what the terms actually mean. Similarly Americans who believe Democrats are a "Far Left" party are also incorrect as America by definition has 2 right wing parties.
 

brooksie4

Active Member
Jan 15, 2017
101
78
You're all over the place. You entered the conversation with far too much emotion and had to back-peddle. It's okay. It happens.

And "us" refers to our respective countries.

On the contrary, I've been steadfast and consistent. Again, you would see that if you gave my posts an honest reading, stripped of the emotion you're presently infecting the discussion with. The emotion I brought was anger at how certain elements in the American media, including social media, were reporting "alternative facts" and using the tragedy for their own (often vile, IMO) political purposes. I expressed my feelings and immediately felt better. What's it going to take for you to calm down? As for our countries, as previously noted (again, if you'd only read the posts) neither of us speaks for our nations. I did not insult 320 million individual Americans. As noted, I like the American friends I have. That doesn't mean I have to like what's happening in American politics and, what's more, I know many of my US friends feel the same way. It's not personal, you have to get out of the sandbox and join the adult conversation. Enough with the immaturity, ok?
 

IschKabibble

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Enough with the immaturity, ok?
You're funny. A Canadian shoots up a mosque and you get upset with America. And I'm the one being immature for trying to make sense of it?



Who was the last American to shoot up a mosque?
 

brooksie4

Active Member
Jan 15, 2017
101
78
Far left would be someone (or a group) who checks all the boxes of what constitutes left wing values, much the same way that in order to be "Far right" you would need to categorically oppose all of them. Communism is farthest left, Facism farthest right. Where you fall in between those 2 extremes determines where you fall on the spectrum. Nothing in Canada falls very far on the right (if at all) as all parties promote varying support of those leftist concepts at their cores. Again, these are not my opinions, these are definitive facts. Although parties are dynamic and change their stances on issues, the spectrum itself is static. Anyone who believes that falling farthest right on a spectrum of leftist groups makes you "Far Right" has no concept of what the terms actually mean. Similarly Americans who believe Democrats are a "Far Left" party are also incorrect as America by definition has 2 right wing parties.

<<these are definitive facts.>>

Actually, not quite facts. They may be commonly-agreed on definitions but they are also subject to change, were the prevailing wisdom to do so, which makes them fall somewhat short of being actual, immutable "facts". Never the less, you are right when you say nothing in Canada falls very far on the right. Nor does it fall very far on the left. Our politics is fairly bland. There are no extreme positions. There is no Communism, nor is there Fascism. I also agree with you that the two US parties are both, by current measure, right wing but that's only terminology. In terms of the American political system, the Dems are on the left, GOP on the right. Where they really fall, by international measure, isn't really part of the daily conversation. We make mental shortcuts and it's the same in Canada. The difference is that we have (or had) three viable parties which generally places the Liberals in the centre, with the NDP to the left, the Conservatives to the right. The question of how "left" or "right" they really are is, as I said, not part of the discourse. The big thing to look for in Canada now is the future of the NDP. Should they wind up merging with the Liberals, then you'll see the sort of shift that came when Reform amalgamated with the old Prog. Conservatives. Not saying that's imminent but, as of now, not one person has declared themselves a candidate to replace leader Thomas Mulcair.
 

brooksie4

Active Member
Jan 15, 2017
101
78
You're funny. A Canadian shoots up a mosque and you get upset with America. And I'm the one being immature for trying to make sense of it?



Who was the last American to shoot up a mosque?
Again, you keep trying to score points rather than participate in an honest discussion, as shown by your use of GIF's. I'm upset because a Canadian shot up a mosque. You're apoplectic because I suggested the Trump effect was one of the influencing factors. I don't think you're trying to make sense of anything, If you were, your tone would be more measured and inquisitive. What you are, is butt-hurt and I am rapidly losing any sympathy for you. Get yourself right, get honest, read my actual words (don't infer) and come back when you're really ready to do what you claim you are.
 

IschKabibble

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You're apopleptic because I suggested the Trump effect was one of the influencing factors. I
No. I'm calling you foolish for the assertion that Trump and LePen "directly influenced" this guy to shoot up a mosque.

Enough with the immaturity, ok?
What you are, is butt-hurt and I am rapidly losing any sympathy for you.
A bit hypocritical, no? Perhaps you should try a more "measured response."
 

brooksie4

Active Member
Jan 15, 2017
101
78
It's the same assertion.

From your perspective, who in America are filled with hate?
Seriously? You need me to tell you? Come on, ask a honest question. The hate is everywhere in your politics right now. You want to blame the messanger (although this surely can't be the first you've heard of it) go ahead, stick your head in the sand.
 

brooksie4

Active Member
Jan 15, 2017
101
78
No. I'm calling you foolish for the assertion that Trump and LePen "directly influenced" this guy to shoot up a mosque.



A bit hypocritical, no? Perhaps you should try a more "measured response."
That was a measured response, You should have seen the other choices.
 

IschKabibble

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Seriously? You need me to tell you? Come on, ask a honest question. The hate is everywhere in your politics right now. You want to blame the messanger (although this surely can't be the first you've heard of it) go ahead, stick your head in the sand.
It's your position. I'm asking you to clarify it. Because we clearly don't see things the same way.
 

brooksie4

Active Member
Jan 15, 2017
101
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No. I'm calling you foolish for the assertion that Trump and LePen "directly influenced" this guy to shoot up a mosque.



A bit hypocritical, no? Perhaps you should try a more "measured response."

Ok, here's the deal. It's ok with me if you want to deny the Trump effect exists. Or that it does exist but wasn't a factor. You're free to think that and even try to make those arguments. But that simply doesn't matter to me, or to most Canadians (IMO). We are going to examine this incident and we are going to look for any and all reasons why it may have taken place. And yes, we are going to look into the influence US politics in general and Trump in particular, may have had on it. Now if it's your contention this exercise will lead us to the same conclusion you've so prematurely drawn, that it played no part, then we'll discover that on our own. However, I don't think we're going to wind up reaching the same conclusion.
 

BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
60,547
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Nor does it fall very far on the left.
They all fall on the left, and 2 of the parties check all the boxes. Hence "far left" NDP over the years has shared many communist Russia policy platforms. In response to your other statement about them not being "immutable facts" They actually are, that's why the terms have definitions. As I stated, the spectrum is static even though where one falls on said spectrum is dynamic.

Out of curiosity, where did you study journalism?
 

IschKabibble

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Ok, here's the deal. It's ok with me if you want to deny the Trump effect exists. Or that it does exist but wasn't a factor. You're free to think that and even try to make those arguments. But that simply doesn't matter to me, or to most Canadians (IMO). We are going to examine this incident and we are going to look for any and all reasons why it may have taken place. And yes, we are going to look into the influence US politics in general and Trump in particular, may have had on it. Now if it's your contention this exercise will lead us to the same conclusion you've so prematurely drawn, that it played no part, then we'll discover that on our own. However, I don't think we're going to wind up reaching the same conclusion.
I'm only paying devil's advocate with you. It makes these threads more fun. Of course Trump is having a massive effect on international politics. I just think it's too soon to draw conclusions on this particular guy's motive. Especially since I saw the feminism support on Facebook. Doesn't really mesh with Trumpism. The guy is most likely a loon.
 

brooksie4

Active Member
Jan 15, 2017
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It's your position. I'm asking you to clarify it. Because we clearly don't see things the same way.
We could start with the problems of racism, the killings of so many young black men, the anti-gay rhetoric, abortion, the Islamophobia you see on American streets and in the media, the demonizing of Mexicans, the complete political divide left over from the election....I could go on and on but, as I've said, you're not being honest, This isn't a real question because you know these things as well as I do, probably better. If, as you say, you truly do see things differently, then make your case. Let's hear your argument that America is not, as I claimed, embarked on a rolling hate-fest. It's taken you a long time to get here, but here you are. I'm willing to entertain your argument. I mean, I'm doubtful as I've haven't seen America this divided since the VIetnam war but I'm an open-minded person. Go ahead, convince me my initial post got it wrong.