Society Quebec Mosque Shooting

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brooksie4

Active Member
Jan 15, 2017
101
78
I'm only paying devil's advocate with you. It makes these threads more fun. Of course Trump is having a massive effect on international politics. I just think it's too soon to draw conclusions on this particular guy's motive. Especially since I saw the feminism support on Facebook. Doesn't really mesh with Trumpism. The guy is most likely a loon.

But you're not doing it well. Playing devil's advocate means being able to articulate a position. I don't think you're having fun at all, I think you're trying to get over the fact that a foreigner said something uncomplimentary about the US and are still trying to get back at me for having done that. As for drawing conclusions, again you refuse to read. I have said, consistently, I think it's an influencing factor. I'm far from alone in that view. I have also said the incident will be thoroughly investigated and we'll eventually have a better idea if it was or not. But my opinion, and again, I've been quite clear this is all opinion, is that the Trump effect was in play. I'm sorry you don't like my opinion but I'm not changing it until there is reason to do so. And yes, no matter what conclusions are drawn, what influences are attributed, the guy's a loon. I mean, to be influenced by anyone or anything to commit an act like this means you're somewhat mentally unstable. That's basically a prerequisite.
 

IschKabibble

TMMAC Addict
First 100
Jan 15, 2015
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We could start with the problems of racism, the killings of so many young black men, the anti-gay rhetoric, abortion, the Islamophobia you see on American streets and in the media, the demonizing of Mexicans, the complete political divide left over from the election
This is why I think you have a warped perception of America. When you say killing of so many young black men, you mean by other young black men, right? And as far as the anti-gay rhetoric, I hope you're not talking about anything related to Trump...



Trump continues Obama order protecting LGBTQ federal workers

Washington (CNN)An executive order protecting federal employees from anti-LGBTQ discrimination that was first signed in 2014 by President Barack Obama will continue under President Donald Trump, the White House said Tuesday.

"President Donald J. Trump is determined to protect the rights of all Americans, including the LGBTQ community," the White House said in a statement. "The executive order signed in 2014, which protects employees from anti-LGBTQ workplace discrimination while working for federal contractors, will remain intact."

The order extended protections against discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity, and was predicated on previous executive orders under Presidents Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton that created additional protected classes but had not included the LGBTQ community.

as I've said, you're not being honest
Not a fair assessment. I pride myself on being blunt about everything. Go back and read any of my past arguments on this forum and you'll realize you're jumping to another hasty conclusion.
 

IschKabibble

TMMAC Addict
First 100
Jan 15, 2015
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But you're not doing it well. Playing devil's advocate means being able to articulate a position. I don't think you're having fun at all, I think you're trying to get over the fact that a foreigner said something uncomplimentary about the US and are still trying to get back at me for having done that. As for drawing conclusions, again you refuse to read. I have said, consistently, I think it's an influencing factor. I'm far from alone in that view. I have also said the incident will be thoroughly investigated and we'll eventually have a better idea if it was or not. But my opinion, and again, I've been quite clear this is all opinion, is that the Trump effect was in play. I'm sorry you don't like my opinion but I'm not changing it until there is reason to do so. And yes, no matter what conclusions are drawn, what influences are attributed, the guy's a loon. I mean, to be influenced by anyone or anything to commit an act like this means you're somewhat mentally unstable. That's basically a prerequisite.
Stop trying to make this personal. This isn't a personal conversation.
 

brooksie4

Active Member
Jan 15, 2017
101
78
We could start with the problems of racism, the killings of so many young black men, the anti-gay rhetoric, abortion, the Islamophobia you see on American streets and in the media, the demonizing of Mexicans, the complete political divide left over from the election....I could go on and on but, as I've said, you're not being honest, This isn't a real question because you know these things as well as I do, probably better. If, as you say, you truly do see things differently, then make your case. Let's hear your argument that America is not, as I claimed, embarked on a rolling hate-fest. It's taken you a long time to get here, but here you are. I'm willing to entertain your argument. I mean, I'm doubtful as I've haven't seen America this divided since the VIetnam war but I'm an open-minded person. Go ahead, convince me my initial post got it wrong.
Here's something: Leaked Draft of Trump’s Religious Freedom Order Reveals Sweeping Plans to Legalize Discrimination | Gender & Sexuality | The Investigative Fund

So what, nothing going on? Business as usual for the good ol' USA?
 

brooksie4

Active Member
Jan 15, 2017
101
78
But you're not doing it well. Playing devil's advocate means being able to articulate a position. I don't think you're having fun at all, I think you're trying to get over the fact that a foreigner said something uncomplimentary about the US and are still trying to get back at me for having done that. As for drawing conclusions, again you refuse to read. I have said, consistently, I think it's an influencing factor. I'm far from alone in that view. I have also said the incident will be thoroughly investigated and we'll eventually have a better idea if it was or not. But my opinion, and again, I've been quite clear this is all opinion, is that the Trump effect was in play. I'm sorry you don't like my opinion but I'm not changing it until there is reason to do so. And yes, no matter what conclusions are drawn, what influences are attributed, the guy's a loon. I mean, to be influenced by anyone or anything to commit an act like this means you're somewhat mentally unstable. That's basically a prerequisite.
Stop trying to make this personal. This isn't a personal conversation.
For you, it seems quite personal
 

brooksie4

Active Member
Jan 15, 2017
101
78
This is why I think you have a warped perception of America. When you say killing of so many young black men, you mean by other young black men, right? And as far as the anti-gay rhetoric, I hope you're not talking about anything related to Trump...



Trump continues Obama order protecting LGBTQ federal workers

Washington (CNN)An executive order protecting federal employees from anti-LGBTQ discrimination that was first signed in 2014 by President Barack Obama will continue under President Donald Trump, the White House said Tuesday.

"President Donald J. Trump is determined to protect the rights of all Americans, including the LGBTQ community," the White House said in a statement. "The executive order signed in 2014, which protects employees from anti-LGBTQ workplace discrimination while working for federal contractors, will remain intact."

The order extended protections against discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity, and was predicated on previous executive orders under Presidents Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton that created additional protected classes but had not included the LGBTQ community.


Not a fair assessment. I pride myself on being blunt about everything. Go back and read any of my past arguments on this forum and you'll realize you're jumping to another hasty conclusion.
My conclusion is solely based on your participation in this thread and nothing about it has inspired me to look for your posts on other threads. Frankly, I find you petty and argumentative. I asked you to defend your contention that America is NOT engaged in a "rolling hate-fest" (my words) and you respond with a picture of Trump holding a rainbow flag. So what, that's supposed to prove there's no issue in your country with discrimination against gays? Again, you can't play devil's advocate because you don't know how. You're supposed to make arguments and advance positions, not post pictures. You said what your main issue is. All I'm saying is fine, let's hear you defend it. Convince me that America is less hate-free, more united than ever because I gotta tell you, that ain't the view from here.
 

IschKabibble

TMMAC Addict
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Jan 15, 2015
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My conclusion is solely based on your participation in this thread and nothing about it has inspired me to look for your posts on other threads. Frankly, I find you petty and argumentative. I asked you to defend your contention that America is NOT engaged in a "rolling hate-fest" (my words) and you respond with a picture of Trump holding a rainbow flag. So what, that's supposed to prove there's no issue in your country with discrimination against gays? Again, you can't play devil's advocate because you don't know how. You're supposed to make arguments and advance positions, not post pictures. You said what your main issue is. All I'm saying is fine, let's hear you defend it. Convince me that America is less hate-free, more united than ever because I gotta tell you, that ain't the view from here.
lol @ "rolling hate-fest"

Are you arguing based on your feelings, or is our gay discrimination a quantifiable fact?
 

brooksie4

Active Member
Jan 15, 2017
101
78
lol @ "rolling hate-fest"

Are you arguing based on your feelings, or is our gay discrimination a quantifiable fact?
Both but it's more of an observation than an argument. I feel there is gay discrimination in America (Canada too), Police records, court documents and social advocacy organizations are all sources of data about incidents of such discrimination. Whether that's quantifiable enough for you, I can't say.
 

IschKabibble

TMMAC Addict
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Jan 15, 2015
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Both but it's more of an observation than an argument. I feel there is gay discrimination in America (Canada too), Police records, court documents and social advocacy organizations are all sources of data about incidents of such discrimination. Whether that's quantifiable enough for you, I can't say.
I thought you wanted to have an actual debate? Are you going to argue concrete facts, or just tell me how you feel?

When you said young black men being killed, did you mean by other young black men? Or were you implying that we have a racial lynching problem?
 

MC Gusto

Freeloading Rusty
Jan 11, 2016
12,461
12,593
So is that why the police won't reveal the motive of the shooter even though he's being "very co-operative"?

Simmer down meow.

It has literally been days since the shooting. Why would the police make a public statement about a motive they are still trying to investigate?

The motive the police attempt to illustrate will also have a big impact on the types and depth of charges they will successfully be able to get a crown prosecutor to lay against him.

Murder charges, attempted murder charges, weapons charges are a given. What is being investigated is, where these a hate crime or an act of terrorism, and if so, what additional charges should be laid.

Additionally, they types of charges laid, will have an influence on the level of the burden proof the police and courts need to provide and prove.
 
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MC Gusto

Freeloading Rusty
Jan 11, 2016
12,461
12,593
When you said young black men being killed, did you mean by other young black men? Or were you implying that we have a racial lynching problem?
Are you implying this is different than the death statistics for any race?

Whites kill mainly whites.

Greens kill mainly Greens.

Blacks kill mainly blacks.

Murder victims are most often killed by someone of the same race as themselves.
 

ConorMcGregorsBeard

Stewart Era Liberal
Jul 22, 2015
31,529
30,465
Why would the police make a public statement about a motive they are still trying to investigate?
Why wouldn't they? It has no bearing on the outcome on an upcoming trial and becomes public record the minute the trial starts. Literally the first question they would ask a suspect is "Why'd you do it?" We know he isn't being charged with anything hate crime or terrorism related at this time, and it stand to reason that a "very co-operative" suspect is answering whatever questions he's being asked so why are they letting his alleged political views be the narrative?

I've never been a conspiracy theorist of any sort, but something seems really odd about the whole manor this is being handled.
 

brooksie4

Active Member
Jan 15, 2017
101
78
I thought you wanted to have an actual debate? Are you going to argue concrete facts, or just tell me how you feel?
<<Are you arguing based on your feelings, or is our gay discrimination a quantifiable fact?>>

I answered your question.
 

MC Gusto

Freeloading Rusty
Jan 11, 2016
12,461
12,593
Why wouldn't they? It has no bearing on the outcome on an upcoming trial and becomes public record the minute the trial starts. Literally the first question they would ask a suspect is "Why'd you do it?" We know he isn't being charged with anything hate crime or terrorism related at this time, and it stand to reason that a "very co-operative" suspect is answering whatever questions he's being asked so why are they letting his alleged political views be the narrative?

I've never been a conspiracy theorist of any sort, but something seems really odd about the whole manor this is being handled.

Have the police released a statement saying they have closed the investigation towards terrorism charges or hate crime charges?
 

ConorMcGregorsBeard

Stewart Era Liberal
Jul 22, 2015
31,529
30,465
Have the police released a statement saying they have closed the investigation towards terrorism charges or hate crime charges?
Not that I'm aware of. That certainly isn't to say they can't still charge him, but the most recent report on motive Google can find is from 2 days ago. It's honestly shocking how little we know about something that happened almost 4 days ago considering they've had the alleged killer in their custody and he's been co-operative to their questioning.
 

MC Gusto

Freeloading Rusty
Jan 11, 2016
12,461
12,593
Not that I'm aware of. That certainly isn't to say they can't still charge him, but the most recent report on motive Google can find is from 2 days ago. It's honestly shocking how little we know about something that happened almost 4 days ago considering they've had the alleged killer in their custody and he's been co-operative to their questioning.

Again, the police are in no rush to share the information they have gathered.

First off, it will jeopardize the investigation and possible charges.

Second, releasing informaiton this close to an incident isnt going to do the public any good. Give the families time to mourn. Allow the community to heal. No need to release more information which may or may not incite more anger and violence.

My own personal assumption is the guy has some mental health issues.
 

ConorMcGregorsBeard

Stewart Era Liberal
Jul 22, 2015
31,529
30,465
My own personal assumption is the guy has some mental health issues.
I think that goes without saying. No sane human being has ever once woke up in the morning and said "Man, I really need to slaughter some vulnerable people today"

The real good reason to release information is that by sitting on the information they have they're inciting a lot of anger as they allow the media to run with the idea that anyone with right wing views is capable of this type of behavior. Coming forward and saying "Listen, this guy just fucking lost his mind" would do the public a lot more good than letting the state run broadcaster continue pushing its agenda of intolerance toward views that oppose the government.

It also won't jeopardize their investigation or charges. They claim they have co-operation from the alleged shooter (which would imply they have both motive and an admission of guilt) he's been charged, and they're done with the crime scene. It stands to reason that this is an open and shut case and they're sitting on important details.
 

MC Gusto

Freeloading Rusty
Jan 11, 2016
12,461
12,593
It also won't jeopardize their investigation or charges. They claim they have co-operation from the alleged shooter (which would imply they have both motive and an admission of guilt) he's been charged, and they're done with the crime scene. It stands to reason that this is an open and shut case and they're sitting on important details.
You dont understand how the criminal justice system works.
 

ConorMcGregorsBeard

Stewart Era Liberal
Jul 22, 2015
31,529
30,465
Having a criminal record doesn't make you a legal expert ;)

Lay off the Rebel News and Alex Jones shit, trust me, your friends will thank me.
I don't watch Alex Jones, and rarely do I watch Rebel anything (although I would like to smash Faith)

I also don't have a record. Nor do my friends. Knowing how the justice system works is how you avoid such things ;)
 

kick

TMMAC Addict
Nov 3, 2015
8,783
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Communism is farthest left, Facism farthest right.
I don't think Franco was far-right. He wasn't left, but at most conservative and really didn't have much of an ideology to begin with, other than the cult about himself as a person. So not sure if Fascism = far right is a correct measure, given the sample size of examples and Franco in it as a big player. It correlates a lot though.

Anyhow, may I ask which European countries are currently far left in your eyes?