Standout striker Israel Adesanya debuts UFC 221

Discussion in 'Cageside - MMA Discussion' started by SensoriaUtopia, Feb 9, 2018.

  1. regular john

    regular john Interim Champion

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    Yes I am talking about kickboxing only. I haven't seen enough of him in mma and he hasn't fought real good guys. So like I said I'm not commenting on his mma status. I hope he is the best mma striker at MW after all he has a huge background there and mma striking is rudimentary.

    Also it isn't "a few" kickboxers that are "a bit better than him" it's literally hundreds who are much much better than him (counting muay thai and kickboxing). That's what's a pet peeve of mine.
     
  2. SensoriaUtopia

    SensoriaUtopia First 100
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    We at least you admit you are talking strictly kickboxing.

    To me, if there is a guy that is the no.1 kickboxer say at MW, but he has no ability to transition that to MMA strking, compared to a guy who is say no.12 in the world at kickboxing, but is able to show a complete MMA game and implement his striking in MMA, that to me is a million times more impressive.

    It's one thing to be elite in striking when you only face other strikers in a striking sport, way way way more impressive to be an elite striker who can do it against wrestlers and jits guys and total well rounded fighters, as oppossed to just other strkers.

    Hence why Adesanya is way more impressive to me than the kickboxers are MW who you rate higher in just kickboxing.

    NoDoubt
     
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  3. regular john

    regular john Interim Champion

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    I'll take excellence in one field over average in two. Maybe he'll become excellent in mma but all logic tells me he'll get wrestlefucked by a gatekeeper soon.
     
  4. SensoriaUtopia

    SensoriaUtopia First 100
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    Well, I like you, but I have to disagree wtih your logic. He just fought a guy in Tavares who is above the level of a gate keeper and stuffed 9 out 10 takedown's so that logic kind of does not make sense that a lower level guy than the guy he beat would wrestle fuck him, just does not add up.
     
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  5. regular john

    regular john Interim Champion

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    What is "the level of a gatekeeper " anyway? That was just an expression. to be fair I would've guessed that a guy like Tavares would wrestlefuck him but what I mean is I believe a Derek Brunson would smother him; going further, Weidman would make him want to go back to Glory.
     
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  6. BirdWatcher

    BirdWatcher #Right2Recline
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    This is the rankings from Nov 2017

    MIDDLEWEIGHT
    Champion: Georges St-Pierre
    1 Robert Whittaker (Interim Champion)
    2 Michael Bisping -2
    3 Yoel Romero
    4 Luke Rockhold -2
    5 Jacare Souza -1
    6 Chris Weidman -1
    7 Derek Brunson -1
    8 Anderson Silva -1
    9 Kelvin Gastelum -1
    10 David Branch -1
    11 Vitor Belfort
    12 Uriah Hall -2
    13 Krzysztof Jotko -1
    14 Lyoto Machida -1
    15 Paulo Costa *NR

    New Rankings! GSP Debuts At No. 3 On P4P List

    This is from Tuesday.

    Champion : Robert Whittaker
    1 Yoel Romero
    2 Luke Rockhold
    3 Chris Weidman
    4 Kelvin Gastelum
    5 Jacare Souza
    6 Derek Brunson
    7 David Branch
    8 Brad Tavares
    9 Uriah Hall
    10 Paulo Costa
    11 Antonio Carlos Junior
    12 Thiago Santos
    13 Elias Theodorou
    14 Krzysztof Jotko
    15 Cezar Ferreira

    Fighter Rankings | UFC ®

    Key guys like GSP and Gegard missing but other than that it's not too different. Adesanya should be in top ten now which is fitting. Imo from #5 to champ should beat him and I'd put money on Costa smashing him up too. Adesanya is definitely good but I find the specialist usually get exposed at the higher levels. Plus the hands down stuff is hard to pull off with the best. I can see a guy like Rockhold picking him apart, Kelvin finding his way inside, Costa bullying him, Yoel KOing him... I need to see Weidman fight again to see where his head is at though. Whittaker would run through him.
     
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  7. SensoriaUtopia

    SensoriaUtopia First 100
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    Solid post, well that is a great question. To me a gatekeeper is not a guy in the top 10 or top 15. Does not mean it is a guy ranked like out of the top 100 either. I guess it also depends on the weightclass, for most weightclasses I would say a gatekeeper is a solid guy, ranked in the 15 to 20 range. But I will admit that in a shallower weightclass like heavyweight or 125, that maybe someone ranked 10 to 15 could be called a gatekeeper.

    It is subjective, just like what determines an A level fighter, compared to a B or B + level.

    I think given how easily he stuffed Tavares' attempts, I think he would do so easily with Brunson also. The toughest matchups for Adesanya in the ufc would be Jacare for sure, then Weidman and Romoero due to their wrestling, but outside that, it's easy matchups for him.

    Not saying he beats Robert easily either, it would be a tough fight, but I think Robert is a wonderful matchup for him, given it would be a striking fest.
     
  8. SensoriaUtopia

    SensoriaUtopia First 100
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    I think there has been a dip in quality from this year to the past year in the UFC MW. It's subjective but you have Gegard, who I think is the best MW in the world, in Bellator. Luke is at LHW now. Anderson is essentially retired. Machida is in Bellator. GSP had a 1 off fight at 185. The fact that Brunson is all the way up to 6 is what I am talking about. He just got ko'd bad by Jacare, and I think lost to Machida, yet look how high he sits. Once you get past the Jacare at 5 there seems to a strong dip in quality. I will say guy slike Costa, and Antonio Carlos and Elias are improving young or somewhat young fighter who can be forces.
     
  9. SensoriaUtopia

    SensoriaUtopia First 100
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    @regular john@regular john

    Last night was another illustrator to me how MMA striking is the real striking.

    Gohkan Saki is an amazing kickboxer, in a purely kickboxing fight with those big gloves, he beats Khalil and maybe by a clear margin.

    Yet last night, he got ko'd badly, fight was all on the feet, in MMA striking.

    To me, guys like Adesanya are better strikers than guys that just stick to kickboxing, its one thing to just strike when the other guy is only striking, but its next level shit to be able to do that in a MMA fight.

    Same applies to wrestling, to me I am more impressed and think higher of a wrestler like JOnes or Cormier who can dominate with wrestling in an MMA, that means more to me than a wrestler who can dominate in wrestling but only in another wrestling match.

    So let's say Adesanya is ranked 10 in the world at Kickboxing in his weightclass, those guys 1 to 9 could maybe beat him in kickboxing only fight, but if he fought those guys in MMA he would in my mind beat them on the feet in the cage, hence why he is the better striker than them.

    Take Lyoto Machida, he's probably not the best in the world at Shotokan karate, let's say for example he was ranked at 10 in shotokan, those guys 1 to 9 would perhaps beat him in a shotokan only striking affair, but you put those guys in a cage, even with Lyoto not taking them to the ground, he wiil beat those guys in a cage even if the fight is all striking in my view.


    My perspective is in this regard good sir
     
    #34 SensoriaUtopia, Jul 8, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
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  10. regular john

    regular john Interim Champion

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    Respectfully, i don't think that makes much sense. I feel like your whole line of thinking stems from considering mma fights "real fights" and other combat sports not which is big bullshit IMO. You also seem to assume I was claiming that kickboxing is "more real" or "better" than mma which I wasn't.

    You think people become better strikers by fighting worse strikers in a sport that features things other than striking. That doesn't make sense to me. in your example, Adesanya certainly is the better "overall fighter"/ the "more well rounded fighter" but Saki is a much better striker than him - Demonstrated by facing and beating better strikers and accomplishing more in a striking specific sport. The way I see it you would find out who are the best strikers by having people strike and you would find out who are the best mma fighters by having them fight mma.

    it's noteworthy to say that kickboxing has a really shallow talent pool and for one reason or another profesional kickboxers have been beaten on the feet by mma fightes both in kickboxing and in MMA. A KO loss under MMA rules doesn't mean anything from a kickboxing pov though. it's posible that the MMA fighter being more well rounded is overall more impressive but it seems obvious to me that someone who trains striking full time and faces full times strikers is the better striker.
     
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  11. SensoriaUtopia

    SensoriaUtopia First 100
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    My man, Its all subjective what I am saying, no right or wrong just my perspective. But to me, I think if you can strike in a sport where people can do anything, that means more. Just how I view it. I am more impressed in terms of striking by a guy like Adesanya, who can bring that level of striking into MMA, compared to someone that is only a kickboxer, and if they where in that cage against Tavares, they would not be able to use most of their striking.

    Same exact way I feel about wrestling. A shit ton of guys have better pure wrestling credentials than GSP, in a purely wrestling match maybe they beat GSP. Koscheck has better credentials, yet in an MMA fight, which involves everytghing, Kos's wrestling was easy for GSP to preevent and GSP has better wrestling in my humble view because he can use it in a fight where simultaneously all martial arts are being used.

    That is what I mean
     
  12. SensoriaUtopia

    SensoriaUtopia First 100
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    Modesty aside, I knew he was outstanding before he ever had a ufc fight and I called this guy as champ after 1 ufc fight

    Feels great to see him do his thing and I love how people are still not getting how great he is. Now after he beats and brutalized Robert, the guy that beat Yoel in 2 close fights, people now tell me Yoel is the guy that beats him. He will beat Yoel and may even get a late finish, round 4 tko type thing.

    I don't think he will go on the Anderson Silva 10 title defense, really should be 11 because a champ should never lose a title defense beating a guy who does not make weight in a title fight. But that is because MMA is so deep in all weightclasses now, arguably Adesanya could be as good as prime Anderson, I am not taking the leap to say he is better than prime Anderson but I will not rule it out either.

    Plus, I do not have to worry about the PED thing clouding achievements for me like we do with Anderson, that matters to a level

    Peace
     
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  13. BrunoMcGyver

    BrunoMcGyver “My balls was hot.”

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    But he’s like only the #1348728 kickboxer in the world.
     
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  14. SensoriaUtopia

    SensoriaUtopia First 100
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    [​IMG]
     
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  15. SensoriaUtopia

    SensoriaUtopia First 100
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    She is amazingly beautiful and she has perfect lips. This is the true beautiful girl with natural plump lips, way better than when women overdo that stuff and get swole.

    Lips on a woman need to have at least some good size to them, and also key is they need to not feel like a plastic purse and feel like soft plush female stimulation

    Utopia forever excellent
     
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  16. regular john

    regular john Interim Champion

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    my predictions in this thread are the biggest fail ever. my line of reasoning is perfect but it turned out 100% completely wrong lol.
     
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  17. BrunoMcGyver

    BrunoMcGyver “My balls was hot.”

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    Well imo your predictions were close while not being close. I remember him struggling against Vettori and 1st round again Wilkinson, but it seemed like he improved his all around game so quickly and so much.
     
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  18. Frank Armitage

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  19. Shang Tsong2

    Shang Tsong2 ATM 3 CHAMPION OF THE WORLD
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  20. SensoriaUtopia

    SensoriaUtopia First 100
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    Mine where spot on


    humble brag
     
  21. conor mcgregor nut hugger

    conor mcgregor nut hugger #JUSTICE4KWING

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    Adesanya lost that fight to Vettori
     
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