The Beginnings of Australian Mixed Martial Arts: The Chris De Weaver Interview
Part One of Two: Unexpected Visitors From Japan
By William Colosimo | wcolosimo@yahoo.com
Martial artist Chris De Weaver is an American who had relocated to Australia during the time that mixed martial arts (MMA)- by way of the Japanese Pancrase organization and Brazilian jiu-jitsu (BJJ)- had been introduced to the country. Chris gives us an inside look at the formative years of these combat sports on that continent. In this interview we once again get to research the Pancrase organization- this time through the lens of an Australian fighter.
Immediately upon phone connection Chris and I jumped into some general history of the Professional Wrestling Fujiwara-Gumi organization, its star Yoshiaki Fujiwara, and the origins of Pancrase. After about a minute of conversation I decided it may be best to start recording the discussion! We pick up the transcript at that point.
William Colosimo: Okay Chris, you there?
Chris De Weaver: Yep. I'm here.
WC: Perfect, we're recording. That whole era is pretty fascinating to me, so it's always a treat to talk to people who were there and get their thoughts on the behind the scenes, and learn more about the organization.
CDW: But it's also interesting too that you actually know about the Fujiwara connection, so then you also know about the (Karl) Gotch connection as well. Because that's kind of fundamental to the whole background of Pancrase and how it started and who the founders were and things like that.
WC: Absolutely, I know the basics of the history as far as Gotch going to Japan in the 70’s and that's where their style of wrestling changed. And I pretty much followed Ken Shamrock's career, so know that he was at the tail end of the second (Newborn) U.W.F., and then all those guys split into three factions (Editor’s Note: The U.W.F. fragmented, and their main stars formed three new groups- Yoshiaki Fujiwara formed the Professional Wrestling Fujiwara-Gumi, Nobuhiko Takada formed the Union of Wrestling Forces International, and Akira Maeda formed Fighting Network RINGS) and some of them went to Fujiwara-Gumi, and then they started getting the urge for real competitions and that's where Pancrase came. But, that whole era... the whole creation of that style of fighting is pretty fascinating to me.
CDW: It is, and it's a shame that (Masakatsu) Funaki has really lost, and people don't know about him as well. Most people only know about him as a guy who Rickson (Gracie) fought as a one off- but he was actually an amazing athlete. And the thing that's- both him and (Minoru) Suzuki is- even just walking around the dojo, the amount of charisma and respect that those two guys had was absolutely amazing. It's a shame that they didn't do... or couldn't capitalize that and take that to another level. That was what was really interesting about that group as well, is the dynamic between Suzuki and Funaki.
WC: That was one of my questions for you- if you ever saw them training.
CDW: I did. I did. It was fascinating, I mean really the precursor to a lot of modern MMA training was how they trained- and that had to do a lot with the way Gotch had trained their conditioning, as well as... there's two sides of their art. The actual shoot-style, and then there was also the conditioning and the work ethic that they put in. And yeah, when the foreign fighters came in, we would come in for a week beforehand, to get acclimatized and everything. We would often bring with us, if it was a- in single fighter, they would just have one person come, and that would usually be a trainer/coach, and they would go in and train around the same time with the Japanese guys, but not with the foreign guys. Or, it would be vice versa depending on who you were matched against. So, we got to see a lot of their training methodology, and see how they practiced, and that was hugely helpful- because at that time, I was based out of Australia. And Australia has a really strong kickboxing culture- but we had zero wrestling.
And so, we did great when the fight was on the feet, but as soon as it went to the ground- BJJ had only been in Australia in that time maybe a year or two. And there were only two guys in all of Australia at that time who actually were going to Brazil, and then they weren't really involved with the vale tudo movement or the luta livre or anything like that. It was traditional BJJ (Editor’s Note: Vale tudo- Portuguese for “anything goes”- is a form of MMA that utilizes very limited rules and was popularized in Brazil. The first Ultimate Fighting Championship [UFC] events were vale tudo rules. Luta livre- Portuguese for “free fighting”- is a Brazilian martial art with a heavy focus on no gi grappling, but also includes striking techniques). It's great to hear that you were interested and involved back then as well, because back then there was only really two styles of MMA. You had the BJJ guys, and you had these shoot guys- who came out of the three arms that you've correctly identified. That was really it for the guys who had a complete package. Other than that you had guys who did a bit of this, did a bit of that, tried to do it- but those two groups really were the foundation of modern MMA. And it's really been forgotten that the whole shoot side… because they never really kept evolving, developing, and moving forward.
WC: If you don't mind, let's go back to the beginning. Before competing in Pancrase, what were the styles- I know you mentioned kickboxing- what did you train in before even hearing about Pancrase?
CDW: So, what was interesting- I was in Australia, and Australia is very close to Thailand and Japan. My original foundation art was kyokushinkai, which is a full contact karate with no gloves. You just can't- you punch, knee, kick- but you can't punch to the face because you're not wearing gloves. And then I switched to Muay Thai. And from there, Muay Thai was really my art. And it wasn't until the late 90’s that I came across BJJ, there were two guys in Australia who were kind of doing that. Those guys were based out of Melbourne-
WC: Who were those two guys?
CDW: So, the first guy who kind of became known is John Will. And you can look him up online. He's probably the longest training person in BJJ in Australia. And he had a student who started the journey with him at the same time, a guy by the name of Peter de Been. Peter de Been very quickly split from him because John Will lined up with the Machados (Editor’s Note: The Machado family are BJJ instructors and relatives of the Gracie family), and Peter de Been lined up with Carlos Gracie Jr.- Gracie Barra. And this is going back now almost… it is twenty years actually. So, back then those were the only two groups- but they were in Melbourne and I was living in Sydney. And so we had done a few seminars where we brought these guys up and started training, and there was a group of half a dozen of us who were training together. And the reason why we were all training together is, myself and another guy- Larry Papadopoulos- who also you can find fought in Shooto, he was in Pancrase and Shooto- he and I owned a security company where we looked after all of the- not all- but we looked after like a dozen nightclubs in Sydney. So we were very much a practical hands on approach to the way how we trained martial arts. And then one day out of the blue, in comes to that dojo, comes Funaki, and Mr. (Masami) Ozaki- who is the president of Pancrase at that time, and their translator, a guy by the name of Mr. (Takeya) Oitate. And Oitate was really the linchpin in the organization as far as bringing in foreign fighters because he spoke English so well, and was a really nice guy to deal with. And that's how Australia got involved, the second wave- because there was one other person that preceded my group of Australian fighters, which was me, Larry, and another guy by the name of Alex Cook, and another guy Richard Saar.
There was one guy by the name of Greg Smit, and Greg Smit was the first Australian to actually fight in Pancrase. And while we all had a BJJ flavor/Thai boxing flavor to what we were doing, Greg actually trained and went to Florida to train with Gotch. And so he actually had the real leg lock, ankle lock, wrestling, ride style. Even though he wasn't that athletic, he was a bit... not as coordinated and athletic as the other guys- he actually had very solid fundamentals in regards to the Gotch system. So that's (laughter) a bit of history that I haven't thought of in quite a while, but that's really the background of that one group.
WC: I had heard that Minoru Suzuki had actually also travelled to Australia and wrestled with Larry Papadopoulos, as a tryout for Pancrase. And I heard that Larry had choked out Suzuki. Is there any truth to that or were you there when that happened?
CDW: I was there. And that's an interesting... no. So, it wasn't a tryout. We expressed interest, started it... we've had people go up. I think Richard Saar was the first one who is almost in some ways a sacrificial lamb. We had our schedule as far as who was going up in what order. And Richard went up and Larry cornered him. So Larry got that week of training where he was up in Japan. Suzuki did come to Australia, and he trained in our gym. And it was more, it wasn't so- you can say it was tryouts for us, but really at that stage, they were being very helpful trying to develop us. I view it more as we were like the “D” league because the U.S. had a strong wrestling culture, so all of the guys who were going over were stronger on the ground than us. He came down for a week, and what I remember more than just the training, we'd take him to the beach, him going to a barbecue, him just being really friendly- and us being very friendly 'cause that's the Australian way. That whole strangling him out- we were training. And to me, I would make that comment if it was "Okay, now we're gonna spar and have a real match." It might have been in the time where we were doing rounds, we were training, wrestling hard, and he might have gotten to that position- but as far as strangling him out, no. Did he make him tap? That could have happened. Larry trained judo for a long time beforehand and was a very quick learner. So I don't put a lot of weight in that story. And I was there at every single training session. But keep in mind that's going back twenty years. But it's not that- okay, they squared off, stared each other down, fought hard, then Larry strangled him out. No, it wasn't remotely like that.
WC: That week that Suzuki came down to Australia, that was different than the time Funaki came down with the interpreter and the Pancrase-
CDW: Yeah, Funaki didn't roll with us. Funaki did not roll with us at all. He was there. They went around to a few gyms taking a look, but the gym that he went into to look at us... I am 6'6", over 200 pounds back then. Larry was like 6'1", 200 pounds. Richard Saar was the same but maybe 220, 230. There was another guy, Alex Saar, his brother who was like 6'3" and even more built. We had a really big Samoan guy by the name of Junior Silau there who was like 6'4" 250. So we had some big beasts. So they walk in out of the blue, unbeknownst to us who they are, watch us training, then organize another day to come back and watch us again. And that was more like the tryout to see what we were on about. We'd just been doing a little bit of BJJ so we knew some basics. And that was more what it was about- but it was because we had the security arm where we had all of these bouncers training with us. We had a bunch of very impressive athletes. And that's why they decided to make an effort into trying to develop us.
Part One of Two: Unexpected Visitors From Japan
By William Colosimo | wcolosimo@yahoo.com
Martial artist Chris De Weaver is an American who had relocated to Australia during the time that mixed martial arts (MMA)- by way of the Japanese Pancrase organization and Brazilian jiu-jitsu (BJJ)- had been introduced to the country. Chris gives us an inside look at the formative years of these combat sports on that continent. In this interview we once again get to research the Pancrase organization- this time through the lens of an Australian fighter.
Immediately upon phone connection Chris and I jumped into some general history of the Professional Wrestling Fujiwara-Gumi organization, its star Yoshiaki Fujiwara, and the origins of Pancrase. After about a minute of conversation I decided it may be best to start recording the discussion! We pick up the transcript at that point.
William Colosimo: Okay Chris, you there?
Chris De Weaver: Yep. I'm here.
WC: Perfect, we're recording. That whole era is pretty fascinating to me, so it's always a treat to talk to people who were there and get their thoughts on the behind the scenes, and learn more about the organization.
CDW: But it's also interesting too that you actually know about the Fujiwara connection, so then you also know about the (Karl) Gotch connection as well. Because that's kind of fundamental to the whole background of Pancrase and how it started and who the founders were and things like that.
WC: Absolutely, I know the basics of the history as far as Gotch going to Japan in the 70’s and that's where their style of wrestling changed. And I pretty much followed Ken Shamrock's career, so know that he was at the tail end of the second (Newborn) U.W.F., and then all those guys split into three factions (Editor’s Note: The U.W.F. fragmented, and their main stars formed three new groups- Yoshiaki Fujiwara formed the Professional Wrestling Fujiwara-Gumi, Nobuhiko Takada formed the Union of Wrestling Forces International, and Akira Maeda formed Fighting Network RINGS) and some of them went to Fujiwara-Gumi, and then they started getting the urge for real competitions and that's where Pancrase came. But, that whole era... the whole creation of that style of fighting is pretty fascinating to me.
CDW: It is, and it's a shame that (Masakatsu) Funaki has really lost, and people don't know about him as well. Most people only know about him as a guy who Rickson (Gracie) fought as a one off- but he was actually an amazing athlete. And the thing that's- both him and (Minoru) Suzuki is- even just walking around the dojo, the amount of charisma and respect that those two guys had was absolutely amazing. It's a shame that they didn't do... or couldn't capitalize that and take that to another level. That was what was really interesting about that group as well, is the dynamic between Suzuki and Funaki.
WC: That was one of my questions for you- if you ever saw them training.
CDW: I did. I did. It was fascinating, I mean really the precursor to a lot of modern MMA training was how they trained- and that had to do a lot with the way Gotch had trained their conditioning, as well as... there's two sides of their art. The actual shoot-style, and then there was also the conditioning and the work ethic that they put in. And yeah, when the foreign fighters came in, we would come in for a week beforehand, to get acclimatized and everything. We would often bring with us, if it was a- in single fighter, they would just have one person come, and that would usually be a trainer/coach, and they would go in and train around the same time with the Japanese guys, but not with the foreign guys. Or, it would be vice versa depending on who you were matched against. So, we got to see a lot of their training methodology, and see how they practiced, and that was hugely helpful- because at that time, I was based out of Australia. And Australia has a really strong kickboxing culture- but we had zero wrestling.
And so, we did great when the fight was on the feet, but as soon as it went to the ground- BJJ had only been in Australia in that time maybe a year or two. And there were only two guys in all of Australia at that time who actually were going to Brazil, and then they weren't really involved with the vale tudo movement or the luta livre or anything like that. It was traditional BJJ (Editor’s Note: Vale tudo- Portuguese for “anything goes”- is a form of MMA that utilizes very limited rules and was popularized in Brazil. The first Ultimate Fighting Championship [UFC] events were vale tudo rules. Luta livre- Portuguese for “free fighting”- is a Brazilian martial art with a heavy focus on no gi grappling, but also includes striking techniques). It's great to hear that you were interested and involved back then as well, because back then there was only really two styles of MMA. You had the BJJ guys, and you had these shoot guys- who came out of the three arms that you've correctly identified. That was really it for the guys who had a complete package. Other than that you had guys who did a bit of this, did a bit of that, tried to do it- but those two groups really were the foundation of modern MMA. And it's really been forgotten that the whole shoot side… because they never really kept evolving, developing, and moving forward.
WC: If you don't mind, let's go back to the beginning. Before competing in Pancrase, what were the styles- I know you mentioned kickboxing- what did you train in before even hearing about Pancrase?
CDW: So, what was interesting- I was in Australia, and Australia is very close to Thailand and Japan. My original foundation art was kyokushinkai, which is a full contact karate with no gloves. You just can't- you punch, knee, kick- but you can't punch to the face because you're not wearing gloves. And then I switched to Muay Thai. And from there, Muay Thai was really my art. And it wasn't until the late 90’s that I came across BJJ, there were two guys in Australia who were kind of doing that. Those guys were based out of Melbourne-
WC: Who were those two guys?
CDW: So, the first guy who kind of became known is John Will. And you can look him up online. He's probably the longest training person in BJJ in Australia. And he had a student who started the journey with him at the same time, a guy by the name of Peter de Been. Peter de Been very quickly split from him because John Will lined up with the Machados (Editor’s Note: The Machado family are BJJ instructors and relatives of the Gracie family), and Peter de Been lined up with Carlos Gracie Jr.- Gracie Barra. And this is going back now almost… it is twenty years actually. So, back then those were the only two groups- but they were in Melbourne and I was living in Sydney. And so we had done a few seminars where we brought these guys up and started training, and there was a group of half a dozen of us who were training together. And the reason why we were all training together is, myself and another guy- Larry Papadopoulos- who also you can find fought in Shooto, he was in Pancrase and Shooto- he and I owned a security company where we looked after all of the- not all- but we looked after like a dozen nightclubs in Sydney. So we were very much a practical hands on approach to the way how we trained martial arts. And then one day out of the blue, in comes to that dojo, comes Funaki, and Mr. (Masami) Ozaki- who is the president of Pancrase at that time, and their translator, a guy by the name of Mr. (Takeya) Oitate. And Oitate was really the linchpin in the organization as far as bringing in foreign fighters because he spoke English so well, and was a really nice guy to deal with. And that's how Australia got involved, the second wave- because there was one other person that preceded my group of Australian fighters, which was me, Larry, and another guy by the name of Alex Cook, and another guy Richard Saar.
There was one guy by the name of Greg Smit, and Greg Smit was the first Australian to actually fight in Pancrase. And while we all had a BJJ flavor/Thai boxing flavor to what we were doing, Greg actually trained and went to Florida to train with Gotch. And so he actually had the real leg lock, ankle lock, wrestling, ride style. Even though he wasn't that athletic, he was a bit... not as coordinated and athletic as the other guys- he actually had very solid fundamentals in regards to the Gotch system. So that's (laughter) a bit of history that I haven't thought of in quite a while, but that's really the background of that one group.
WC: I had heard that Minoru Suzuki had actually also travelled to Australia and wrestled with Larry Papadopoulos, as a tryout for Pancrase. And I heard that Larry had choked out Suzuki. Is there any truth to that or were you there when that happened?
CDW: I was there. And that's an interesting... no. So, it wasn't a tryout. We expressed interest, started it... we've had people go up. I think Richard Saar was the first one who is almost in some ways a sacrificial lamb. We had our schedule as far as who was going up in what order. And Richard went up and Larry cornered him. So Larry got that week of training where he was up in Japan. Suzuki did come to Australia, and he trained in our gym. And it was more, it wasn't so- you can say it was tryouts for us, but really at that stage, they were being very helpful trying to develop us. I view it more as we were like the “D” league because the U.S. had a strong wrestling culture, so all of the guys who were going over were stronger on the ground than us. He came down for a week, and what I remember more than just the training, we'd take him to the beach, him going to a barbecue, him just being really friendly- and us being very friendly 'cause that's the Australian way. That whole strangling him out- we were training. And to me, I would make that comment if it was "Okay, now we're gonna spar and have a real match." It might have been in the time where we were doing rounds, we were training, wrestling hard, and he might have gotten to that position- but as far as strangling him out, no. Did he make him tap? That could have happened. Larry trained judo for a long time beforehand and was a very quick learner. So I don't put a lot of weight in that story. And I was there at every single training session. But keep in mind that's going back twenty years. But it's not that- okay, they squared off, stared each other down, fought hard, then Larry strangled him out. No, it wasn't remotely like that.
WC: That week that Suzuki came down to Australia, that was different than the time Funaki came down with the interpreter and the Pancrase-
CDW: Yeah, Funaki didn't roll with us. Funaki did not roll with us at all. He was there. They went around to a few gyms taking a look, but the gym that he went into to look at us... I am 6'6", over 200 pounds back then. Larry was like 6'1", 200 pounds. Richard Saar was the same but maybe 220, 230. There was another guy, Alex Saar, his brother who was like 6'3" and even more built. We had a really big Samoan guy by the name of Junior Silau there who was like 6'4" 250. So we had some big beasts. So they walk in out of the blue, unbeknownst to us who they are, watch us training, then organize another day to come back and watch us again. And that was more like the tryout to see what we were on about. We'd just been doing a little bit of BJJ so we knew some basics. And that was more what it was about- but it was because we had the security arm where we had all of these bouncers training with us. We had a bunch of very impressive athletes. And that's why they decided to make an effort into trying to develop us.
