VID The Trouble with Rousey IS NOT Tarverdyan...

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KataKing

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Sep 1, 2016
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CONTINUING ON LOOKING @ RONDA...

Here's a clip of Ronda presenting her self assessment of her striking talent. According to the video, this came out just prior to the fight with Holly Holm.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HsJxOmhL00

Shotokan karate precepts immediately pop into my head during a viewing of this.

Now let's get a second, outside opinion, one in concert with the theme of this thread. Skip all that for now....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxIzijjVo2A

The subject of the interview says Ronda can still come back, and gives a general appraisal of the situation with her striking skills.

Note the gym boxers sparring the background... how polished & accomplished they come across. So, here's another metric for visualizing what can be done with professional level boxing training.
 

KataKing

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I'm going to table the Shotokan 20-precepts for now. Except for one lesson. A set of principles. Here's Ronda preparing for Championship-level MMA. Looks strong & fierce, NO?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF8zqw85cLQ

And here's another shorter one.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuhbSETWRSk

Now compare what we in how RONDA is training, versus one of a beginner boxing sparring video I plucked quickly right out of the same social forum, Youtube.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP29ZORoeus

The value I see here is that the author presents a set of ground-rule principles for successfully training & engaging in boxing sparring. Practical principles, as opposed to philosophical precepts. How much of considerably skilled execution of these principles are made apparent in Ronda's MMA striking demos?

Part of the value of the idea of the Shotokan karate precepts, is that while the listing or first reading of them seems simple and straightforward enough... actually enacting them proficiently is a world apart from simple or easy. I think, if you think about it seriously, the same can be said quite clearly that enacting and executing proficiently the set of basic boxing sparring principles laid out in the video... doing so in real time against a real opponent becomes an ADVANCED exercise.

Now if I a karateka, can pluck a boxing & sparring principles video off of YT and glean some relevance, what's stopping a Championship MMA fighter with all the resources and open arms in the world to help her, from doing so?
 

KataKing

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HERE'S AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTS MODEL

The author is Matt Thornton. His model, IMO, is a version he's developed of the sport training model for fighting. Personally, I believe it's inferior to traditional karate, martial arts. Matt's view is the reverse. And he's built a chain of MMA gyms based around his theories of how to actually train for real fighting, full contact. I believe his core martial art was BJJ, but he's an eclectic much along the overall lines of Bruce Lee's personal style.

Here one of his shorter vids, which has his main theme of "Aliveness," around which a core of three main principles revolve. They are
(1) Timing, (2), Energy, (3) Motion. I'll put down a short description of each, then re-review the video.

(1) Timing. How to perform successfully your technique against a resisting opponent so the technique will work.

(2) Energy. Training to a resisting opponent, and against the random actions involved.

(3) Motion. Practicing your technique repeatedly to learn correct function, and then to become proficient so that you can quickly enact it from memory.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3r-G33oKHc


I start to have a problem with Matt Thornton when he makes statements like "Aliveness" is the key and when you truly understand 'aliveness," you can't be BS'd again. No one want's to be BS'd, right? But the statement, in form just states the premise of "Aliveness is key," and justifies the conclusion because you won't / don't want to fall prey to BS. Great marketing appeal, but no substance.

OTOH, sport training does work and Matt Thornton presents and then hones in on the key areas of principle where one needs to succeed in becoming a proficient fighter, in real situations, actual competition like MMA And what he pro-offers has a lot of appeal gauged by his success at building an organization.

Matt has a conceptual training model for martial arts, and applicable to MMA. I know sound traditional karate can beat Matt Thornton's "Aliveness;" Matt has himself and a slew of coaches and members who have started in the traditional martial arts, and the switched to his school philosophy and approach. They hue to the notion that traditional martial arts is ineffective in it's training approach ("dead training").

BOTTOM LINE: There's a choice to be made. And you can't say Matt doesn't challenge one's thinking....




 
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KataKing

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TO FOLLOW ON THE MATT THORNTON SYSTEM, HERE'S A SHORT DEMO REEL, AND AN ENDORSEMENT BY AN MMA CHAMPION...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnkYNRxeSs8

The demo is very much in line with the conventional thinking amongst MMA, IMO.

RC points out a criticism of traditional martial art hierarchy, etc. And, that in the real world, is definitely true; I've experienced this myself including at my current karate organization. the dojo is pretty good. More politics at the org level.

But this is really a phenomena that can be found in any organization, including MMA schools. Right now, with the second Rousey drubbing (severe), all the focus, all the heat is on Glendale Fighting. I've posted some huge wipeouts by MMA here (some of which have been vaped).

I also came across an MMA Forum article about how Holly Holm, with her recent losses, is exposed as over-rated, not really championship material, etc. etc. I see the deficiency in Holly Holm or can point to what I don't karate-like in Jackson / Winkeljohn. But again, there's always a deficiency in any of us. It's how we get better that counts.

The Jackson / Winkeljohn model, the entire program + Holly Holm's dedication produced for all practical purposes the ideal opponent to defeat Ronda Rousey. That match is one of the all time greats of how to prepare, train and execute a professional MMA match @ the championship level. That' my opinion.

Is it the trainor, the fighter-competitor, or the style (Matt Thornton says no; I say yes), etc. While those are all relevant; there's a choice(s) to be made.
 
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KataKing

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I OP'ed this thread on Friday, Jan. 6. On Saturday, Jan. 7, an MMA site that regularly links in here published an article, "Zahabi: Ronda Rousey failed to develop her striking, but it's not Traverdyan's fault." The article by-line is set below.

Firas Zahabi says Ronda Rousey’s punching is ‘not at an expert level’ but says it’s not her coach’s fault. Here’s why.

It might seem that I'm on board with Firas, by the title to this thread. But I'm not 100% in line with Firas Z. Not at all. And I've stated that here, numerous times. I am not a fan of ET, nor am I endorsing him. I'm not going to condemn him outright, and I won't.

Second, I wouldn't frame Ronda's striking by "...is not at expert level." I would say it's a start and had been working, has some functionality. Far from expert, though. Firas is couching his words, being diplomatic. Semantics, ultimately....

Early in the article, there' a statement about how Firas thinks his position might be received. "...and while Firas understands that going against the grain (condemnation of Tarverdyan), could get people riled up, he did his best to back up his statement."

The article and Firas then go on to explore the why. Then choices, maybe better choices (maybe not) can be made.

How precisely on point to the content in this thread.
 
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KataKing

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I agree, I was mostly joking. It is all on Ronda and its honestly kinda tiring the babying she gets for this, everyone saying she was rocked early etc.

Just out of curiosity, from everyone on the ufc roster who are your top 5?
Ghost Bro @Ghost Bro
\
Yeah, on the babying from getting rocked early. That's the risk in the game. And Ronda knows, knows for sure, she's up against a ferocious, deadly striker in the form of Nunes. Can't claim inexperience.
\
Moreover, when I was countering on getting heat for posting the 20 Precepts of Shotokan karate... that been in the past too. So easy to ridicule what one (you personally) not doing, not able to do... how apropos to Ronda's situation post-UFC 207.

There's the popularization of MMA, and then there is intelligently, responsibly preparing for a Championship MMA fight. The fact that prospective coaches, pundits, analysts, observers in MMA are now calling for Tarverdyan's head... I'm going in the direction of the competitor.

The top competitor that comes to mind who has evolved the MMA striking game is Conor McGregor. He's actually a student, and understudy of the Matt Thornton system AND sport karate (as per direct evidence in the link I provided above). We, (I think we) have to temper the success of Conor's MMA training model by the fact of his ponderous natural reservoir of talent. Same as with another true great, Jon Jones. We can't award Jackson / Winkeljohn 100%. I can say by what I've witnessed for their MMA striking regimen for Jon is very, very good, which destroyed Machida / sport karate hands down.

To me, and it's a WMMA example, it's Jackson / Winkeljohn's preparation of Holly Holm for Ronda Rousey that represents the pinnacle of MMA training achievement. Another fight I called wrong. And that' not a commercial for Jackson / Wink. There are some competing camps, including some posting on this tread, IMO. I respect MMA, I don't endorse it for myself or believe that it's absent of promotional bias.
 
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Ghost Bro

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Ghost Bro @Ghost Bro
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Yeah, on the babying from getting rocked early. That's the risk in the game. And Ronda knows, knows for sure, she's up against a ferocious, deadly striker in the form of Nunes. Can't claim inexperience.
\
Moreover, when I was countering on getting heat for posting the 20 Precepts of Shotokan karate... that been in the past too. So easy to ridicule what one (you personally) not doing, not able to do... how apropos to Ronda's situation post-UFC 207.

There's the popularization of MMA, and then there is intelligently, responsibly preparing for a Championship MMA fight. The fact that prospective coaches, pundits, analysts, observers in MMA are now calling for Tarverdyan's head... I'm going in the direction of the competitor.

The top competitor that comes to mind who has evolved the MMA striking game is Conor McGregor. He's actually a student, and understudy of the Matt Thornton system AND sport karate (as per direct evidence in the link I provided above). We, (I think we) have to temper the success of Conor's MMA training model by the fact of his ponderous natural reservoir of talent. Same as with another true great, Jon Jones. We can't award Jackson / Winkeljohn 100%. I can say by what I've witnessed for their MMA striking regimen for Jon is very, very good, which destroyed Machida / sport karate hands down.

To me, and it's a WMMA example, it's Jackson / Winkeljohn's preparation of Holly Holm for Ronda Rousey that represents the pinnacle of MMA training achievement. Another fight I called wrong. And that' not a commercial for Jackson / Wink. There are some competing camps, including some posting on this tread, IMO. I respect MMA, I don't endorse it for myself or believe that it's absent of promotional bias.
I think its just a way for the mainstream media to get around saying what happened without looking like they're bashing Ronda..ofcourse its not all tarverdyan.
 

KataKing

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I think its just a way for the mainstream media to get around saying what happened without looking like they're bashing Ronda..ofcourse its not all tarverdyan.
Ghost Bro @Ghost Bro
And this thread is about, now that we've established what you've replied, now to move beyond media, beyond Tarverdyan.

The theme is not fixed on who's to blame (re-tweeting same); it's what is Ronda going to do? Then how is Ronda going to proceed where the "top" MMA coaches say she needs to go. Getting beyond the obvious need, to the challenge of charting a path.

Like the prior poster (#60), Ronda is stuck in 'TLDR' land. And Edmond, like #60, appears ready to help her remain. Not a media thread:confounded:.

And there's a larger moral beyond that, but it's TLDR (too challenging). Weren't the PPV numbers outstanding? Certain posters stop there....
 

Atto

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Feb 11, 2016
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I OP'ed this thread on Friday, Jan. 6. On Saturday, Jan. 7, an MMA site that regularly links in here published an article, "Zahabi: Ronda Rousey failed to develop her striking, but it's not Traverdyan's fault." The article by-line is set below.

Firas Zahabi says Ronda Rousey’s punching is ‘not at an expert level’ but says it’s not her coach’s fault. Here’s why.

It might seem that I'm on board with Firas, by the title to this thread. But I'm not 100% in line with Firas Z. Not at all. And I've stated that here, numerous times. I am not a fan of ET, nor am I endorsing him. I'm not going to condemn him outright, and I won't.

Second, I wouldn't frame Ronda's striking by "...is not at expert level." I would say it's a start and had been working, has some functionality. Far from expert, though. Firas is couching his words, being diplomatic. Semantics, ultimately....

Early in the article, there' a statement about how Firas thinks his position might be received. "...and while Firas understands that going against the grain (condemnation of Tarverdyan), could get people riled up, he did his best to back up his statement."

The article and Firas then go on to explore the why. Then choices, maybe better choices (maybe not) can be made.

How precisely on point to the content in this thread.


Ronda has knock out power in her punches but lack of technique . what the fuck Coach Edmund was doing all these fucking years.
what the fuck was he doing when she had no head movement against Bethe..Fedor had pointed this out 2 months before Holly fight.

Fedor: I don’t like that Ronda Rousey misses a lot of punches
"To date, [Rousey] stands out as number one in the world rankings," said Fedor. "But I do not like that she misses a lot of punches, which leads to painful reception. I do not advocate such tactics, especially for women."

Read more:Fedor: Rousey misses a lot of punches
 

Ghost Bro

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Ghost Bro @Ghost Bro
And this thread is about, now that we've established what you've replied, now to move beyond media, beyond Tarverdyan.

The theme is not fixed on who's to blame (re-tweeting same); it's what is Ronda going to do? Then how is Ronda going to proceed where the "top" MMA coaches say she needs to go. Getting beyond the obvious need, to the challenge of charting a path.

Like the prior poster (#60), Ronda is stuck in 'TLDR' land. And Edmond, like #60, appears ready to help her remain. Not a media thread:confounded:.

And there's a larger moral beyond that, but it's TLDR (too challenging). Weren't the PPV numbers outstanding? Certain posters stop there....
I don't know enough about karate to talk with you about it, you use too much terminology that I don't understand (willing to learn) which make it difficult to comment on any of the above.
My attempt would be something like, Rousey needs to find her budo, she's been trying to show the world what she's made of but its time to show herself. Now see that just sounds cheesy.

For the record I don't think she'll go do some proper striking..or any wrestling (training for doubles) for that matter, which more than likely means she's done.
 

KataKing

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Ronda has knock out power in her punches but lack of technique . what the fuck Coach Edmund was doing all these fucking years.
what the fuck was he doing when she had no head movement against Bethe..Fedor had pointed this out 2 months before Holly fight.

Fedor: I don’t like that Ronda Rousey misses a lot of punches
"To date, [Rousey] stands out as number one in the world rankings," said Fedor. "But I do not like that she misses a lot of punches, which leads to painful reception. I do not advocate such tactics, especially for women."

Read more:Fedor: Rousey misses a lot of punches
Atto @Atto
I said couple of times earlier, I differ from Firas, I differ (throughout the entire thread re karate principles) with Edmond Tarverdyan. I've said numerous times we (a lot of MMA observers) think Ronda should expand her horizons. I've specifically made it a point I'm not a commercial for Firas Z. or MMA gyms. I do think be belongs on the alternative-horizons worksheet.

On your Fedor "bold," (mine just copied in that way, I didn't bother to fix it), sure I agree. There was a ton of commentary post-Bethe Correia that Ronda's striking was "brawler-like." I'll read the Fedor bit. This thread is about coming up with an alternative to Ronda continuing to undertake striking training the now disastrously-evident way she has been doing so.

Therein lies the reason, in tandem with your post, I put up the Set of TEN (10) Basic Boxing Principles vid. A boxing training-think piece, including the fact that Ronda clearly isn't, as you say, meeting one of those basic ten: Head Movement. Got panned by a poster. No, it's Ronda who go panned (hit over the head with the Nunes frying pan... 48 seconds worth until the face plant was seconds away, aka Bethe Correia-style).

Tnx for adding the Fedor input... that's what Ronda should be researching//// looking into.

'---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: Donald is now also lecturing @ FEDOR... Ronda is 2 Competitors below being NO. 1 ranked. And he knows more than the generals....
 
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KataKing

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Ghost Bro @Ghost Bro
I don't know enough about karate to talk with you about it, you use too much terminology that I don't understand (willing to learn) which make it difficult to comment on any of the above.
\
There's a lot to learn. Meant more for coaches & competitors who want / need to expand their "horizons."

Best way to learn is to don a gi and attend a traditional karate dojo.

My attempt would be something like, Rousey needs to find her budo, she's been trying to show the world what she's made of but its time to show herself. Now see that just sounds cheesy.
\
Yeah, because MMA internet forums are 'cool' with ego-reinforcing chit chat, back-stoking. Coincidentally describes the Tarverdyan-Rousey personal dynamic....

Notwithstanding the latter, you're spot on. That philosophically... and that Ronda is @ crux, a philosophical tipping point in her MMA career where she has to come to terms with precisely what you [cheesily] espouse. Nice job:flushed:.

For the record I don't think she'll go do some proper striking..or any wrestling (training for doubles) for that matter, which more than likely means she's done.
'fraid so.
 

Tom O'Bedlam

Resident loon.
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I didn't know Dan the wolfman posted here
To be fair though, if this was Dan every post would be prefaced with "Now... when I trained with __________" he taught me this. And then it would be a video of Dan trying it on his fat friend.
 

KataKing

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I PROMISED MORE...

Along the lines of the Shotokan karate 20 precepts... way philosophical, require interpretation, cover the 'world.' But it's the concept of having guiding principles that counts. Take boxing, one of the foundation-al styles for MMA striking.

It came out that Ronda had a secret sparring partner in prepping for UFC 207. There were suggestions by many that Ronda / Tarverdyan should have more sparring action in the training regimen. For argument sake, accept that.

Here's a brief boxing video on how to approach sparring. The video sets a goal post with line markers. Do we see Ronda training along these lines?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg6V9BNq8WU

Instead of Lazlo, the karate instructor from Expert Village, we have "Johnny" from "Expert Boxing." His presentation, "Basic Tips for Beginner Boxers." Which are:

1. Most Important. Spar @ your level; which follow on to sub-objectives continued with 2:
2. Accept the fact that you are a beginner and spar according to that skill level.
3. Qualities @ the beginner level mean slower pace, lower intensity, more relaxed manner.
4. May be less exciting, basically; this is what allows you to learn.
5. {At the more relaxed pace} you can see your technique, you can use your technique against your opponent's moves..
6. ...work on your defensive movements (illustrates with head movement).
7. Throwing lighter does hurt the opponent, keeps the tenor from escalating into a contest.

For all these reasons, it's a very important [training] principle to fight @ your level.

Johnny goes on to say you can spar against a more advanced partner as long as he (she) fights down to your level.

Johnny reinforces by saying why not to spar @ a high intensity level. Basically you don't learn anything. Specifically

1. You don't learn (as above).
2. You get tougher, Johnny says, he'll accede to that (maybe, maybe not I say). A mentally tough person, he says.
3. Skill-wise, though, you'll be frozen. Won't lean by going faster.
4. High intensity against a pro-fighter will make you very defensive.
5. High intensity will force you to be very cautious, scare you.
6. The reason why is you won't know when you making the right move, because the better boxer will still punish you by having better technique.
7. So there's no recognition of knowing when you've done correct technique.
8. The fall out is you will develop the habit of 'hiding,' running away 'all day.' {We never see this in MMA striking right?}
9. Bottom line is, you don't know how to fight back.

Johnny adds, don't spar bigger opponents. It will make you tougher (so he says); yet you won't learn. Higher intensity against a heavier opponent not worth it....

Johnny ends with 'flip-side.' If you are the better boxer, don't spar so intense against the lesser opponent. Throttle it back, work on, try new technique... don't just beat the lesser guy down... now you won't learn anything by just dominating the weaker opponent.

Now in a 2 1/2 minute video, we see important ground-rule principles for getting better at sparring. Getting better. What's more we see similarities with the extensive and much more complicated 1-Step Sparring portion of the traditional karate kumite training component for karate. Of course, pro-boxing gets more complicated. The difference is the 1-Step Sparring has more inter-working parts right from the start. No need to debate the differences here... we see certain ground-rule principles in either approach.

Now let's flash back to Ronda's pre-UFC 207 training footage.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThEdAdlTmT4

AND DITTO...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0new-z9di_s


Forget ET's n the picture. Here's what I see, riding on the boxing-sparring is key training bandwagon.

1. Sparring partner is an inanimate object.
2. The coach is giving advice on heavy bag striking. The focus of attention is on the bag... what it does.
3. The intensity level is very high, and very short in duration.
4. Ronda then goes to the coach for an appraisal, approval.
5. Ronda exhibits "toughness" in her attack on the bag.

Here's what I question... pulling in the 2 1/2 minute boxing sparring for beginners video.

1. Where's the sparring partner?
2. We don't even get to the proper intensity-level question because we have no partner to evaluate it.
3. The high intensity level is fine for character of the exercise. How does a quick burst of high energy stack up against a tough, seasoned, championship level striking opponent over a possible 25 minutes & 5 rounds?
4. Following this quick-burst exercise in aggressive striking, Ronda walks over to the coach for feedback. As the now YOU (Ronda) are the active sparr-er in training for professional competition, shouldn't you (one) be able to provide a certain degree of self-feedback?
5. We do see a certain "toughness" in Ronda's bag work. How about in the Octagon? What do we see in terms of a quality of toughness?

Again, following on the importance, the key and necessary training for boxing proficiency, I say it's not Tarverdyan who's 'wrong;' it's the training regimen that's wrong. And this has been commented on by a poster on page 1. It's Ronda who either benefits or suffers from the training regimen; so it's RONDA THAT'S WRONG. And because Ronda stepped into the Octagon WRONG... Nunes ate her lunch in 48 seconds.

PAUSE... for silent prayer.
 
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jason73

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too bad ronda didnt try to fight amanda in a karate fight instead of actual mma.she might have done better in a kumite
 

KataKing

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JUST TO SHOW GLENDALE MMA ISN'T THE ONLY LACKING PROGRAM...

Take a gander @ "Master Kemmer." In my style, "Master" rank begins with 4th or 5th degree black-belt. Don't know 'cause I don't care about getting them.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcKspS8LJAA

Interestingly, just as Johnny from Expert Boxing cautions, "Master" Kemmer in his 3rd degree black-belt test, spending the final time in the free sparring test, RUNNING AWAY.

Just goes to show that you've got credentials or a track record, by doing karate stuff (or in Ronda's case, MMA stuff), doesn't make you a good fighter....
 

TheAwkwardTitan

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The fuck did I just read? Did that nuthugger guy make a new account where he pretends to be even more retarded than he already pretends to be?