The Wheel of Time (November 2021)

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John Lee Pettimore

Further south than you
May 18, 2021
3,997
3,893

I was waiting for someone to complain about the different ethnicities being unrealistic in a show where people literally use magic to mess with the pattern that creates the fabric of time.

I just didn’t think it would be you, John Lee Pettimore @John Lee Pettimore
The two don't have anything to do with each other, really. Magic exists in the world, but it's still a recognisable human world. And there is no place on earth where you go deep into the interior of a continent, go to a small, nothing town where it's a big deal when anyone visits the village, because it happens so rarely........ and then it's a cosmopolitan melting pot with everyone from all over the planet represented.

It means the great cities don't look any different than the nothing villages, and it means that nobody looks like they're from anywhere in particular. If the Dothraki included a healthy representation of Scottish gingers and 5 foot tall Cambodians, would they have been better onscreen for it? They would have lost believability, and the immersion would have been broken.

I genuinely don't care if the main 4 are black, Asian, whatever. It's irrelevant to the story. But they should all be the same. Because they're all from a nothing little village in the middle of nowhere, that nobody ever moves to or leaves for centuries. To me, having this village's population being so obviously and heavily diversity-managed is less "realistic" and more immersion-breaking than some characters having magical powers is. 👍
 

kaladin stormblessed

TMMAC Addict
Apr 24, 2017
12,767
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Couple things:

If anything, Perrin should be smaller.
In the books Rand is by far the tallest dude, here Perrin is taller and bigger than him. You want him even bigger? Nah.

Obviously Mat and Perrin are a bit different here than in the books, like many chars probably. Blandness to a point I kinda agree, but we will see what's to come, give it time.
Egwene is hot enough imo. Tho I am eager to see Min and Faile.
Nynaeve was always annoying, so it fits. Moraine's and Lan's casting is good imo.

I haven't even noticed the races of the rabble in the inns. And even if, who cares? So Rand isn't _that_ different for looking special. Why not.

Women are badass in this universe. Sure they hump on it a lil but this hardly differs from the books, where women are usually the ones with the power and stronger minds. Better not expect anything different if the source material is more or less matriarchal.
i hear ya. book Rand is taller than Perrin. but Perrin is jacked. they went Perrin being the tallest. just another way of saying that Perrin is imposing

also, i dont believe anything in the text states that the Two River folk are irish/english type white. most of them are said to have brown hair, brown eyes

and other people, like Elayne are said to have lighter skin irrc

plus, the Two Rivers are descendants of a huge metropolis (manetheren)

--------------

and in terms of other shows:

- Cersei, Jaime, Ned Stark, and Robert Baratheon were casted 15-20 years older than their book characters
- Robert Baratheon was casted 8 inches shorter than book Robert

but Lena Headey, Nicholai Coster-Waldau, Sean Bean, and Mark Addy all killed their roles
 

Lars (ADMlN)

Formerly 'Lars'
Oct 17, 2015
34,525
46,496
The two don't have anything to do with each other, really. Magic exists in the world, but it's still a recognisable human world. And there is no place on earth where you go deep into the interior of a continent, go to a small, nothing town where it's a big deal when anyone visits the village, because it happens so rarely........ and then it's a cosmopolitan melting pot with everyone from all over the planet represented.

It means the great cities don't look any different than the nothing villages, and it means that nobody looks like they're from anywhere in particular. If the Dothraki included a healthy representation of Scottish gingers and 5 foot tall Cambodians, would they have been better onscreen for it? They would have lost believability, and the immersion would have been broken.

I genuinely don't care if the main 4 are black, Asian, whatever. It's irrelevant to the story. But they should all be the same. Because they're all from a nothing little village in the middle of nowhere, that nobody ever moves to or leaves for centuries. To me, having this village's population being so obviously and heavily diversity-managed is less "realistic" and more immersion-breaking than some characters having magical powers is. 👍
You need to work on your suspension of disbelief my friend. Learn to love it, because it’s not going anywhere (multi racial casting)
 

kaladin stormblessed

TMMAC Addict
Apr 24, 2017
12,767
15,102
The two don't have anything to do with each other, really. Magic exists in the world, but it's still a recognisable human world. And there is no place on earth where you go deep into the interior of a continent, go to a small, nothing town where it's a big deal when anyone visits the village, because it happens so rarely........ and then it's a cosmopolitan melting pot with everyone from all over the planet represented.

It means the great cities don't look any different than the nothing villages, and it means that nobody looks like they're from anywhere in particular. If the Dothraki included a healthy representation of Scottish gingers and 5 foot tall Cambodians, would they have been better onscreen for it? They would have lost believability, and the immersion would have been broken.

I genuinely don't care if the main 4 are black, Asian, whatever. It's irrelevant to the story. But they should all be the same. Because they're all from a nothing little village in the middle of nowhere, that nobody ever moves to or leaves for centuries. To me, having this village's population being so obviously and heavily diversity-managed is less "realistic" and more immersion-breaking than some characters having magical powers is. 👍
have you seen episode 2 yet? the Two Rivers are descendants of a huge, diverse city

Weep for Manetheren, bro. Weep for what is lost forever.
 

John Lee Pettimore

Further south than you
May 18, 2021
3,997
3,893
Couple things:

If anything, Perrin should be smaller.
In the books Rand is by far the tallest dude, here Perrin is taller and bigger than him. You want him even bigger? Nah.
I can't have an opinion on the books. I was sleeping 16-18 hours a day when I read the first one. :smile: All I retain are impressions, and I could and will be off with some of them. 👍

My missus is disappointed in him, though. She reckons he's supposed to have arms like tree trunks, and no neck.

Obviously Mat and Perrin are a bit different here than in the books, like many chars probably. Blandness to a point I kinda agree, but we will see what's to come, give it time.
For sure, so much to come yet. First impressions are only first impressions, and a TV adaptation always has to make changes to things, especially with such a massive story. Rand's actor is starting to grow on me, though I still find him too generic blonde mactor (model/actor) type. I think they could have gone with someone more interesting-looking, but, early days.

Egwene is hot enough imo.
I mean you wouldn't kick her out of bed for eating potato chips, but it's a bit of a Princess Bride Buttercup syndrome for me. When you make a big deal about how hot a character is, you have to cast a genuine head-turning stunner. Like Missandei from Got - no matter your personal preference in women, she is objectively gorgeous. Eugene is attractive for sure, but if you go to the local university and visit the Psych101 class in the main lecture hall, there will be half a dozen more beautiful chicks in there, IMO.

Moraine's and Lan's casting is good imo.
Yeah they are definitely the standouts for me. Moraine's the MVP by far. I want Lan to be the same actor, but 20 years older. :smile:

I haven't even noticed the races of the rabble in the inns. And even if, who cares?
I am a bit autistic (for real) and it kinda drives me a bit nuts when I see creative decisions being made for non-creative, non-budgetary reasons, that everybody involved knows make the show less "real", but they do it anyway.

Women are badass in this universe.
That's awesome. I am fully on board with that, just like I'm fully on board with being a fan of multiple badass female MMA fighters. As I said, Moraine by far my MVP of the show so far. 👍

But - let the badass female characters show themselves naturally, in the course of the story. Don't shove it down our throats. James Bond doesn't constantly go on about how awesome and badass men are - he's just awesome and badass, and he's a man. This epic fantasy world is female-centric. Good. That will show itself naturally throughout the story, as the world is built and developed.

Sure they hump on it a lil but this hardly differs from the books, where women are usually the ones with the power and stronger minds. Better not expect anything different if the source material is more or less matriarchal.
Because this world is female-centric, it makes it more irritating when they then pile a bunch more immersion-breaking woke feminist nonsense on top of it.

Perrin has a wife now. Okay, whatever. Oh, and she's a blacksmith as well, and she's introduced working the forge by herself while everyone else is at the party. She's more into being a blacksmith than he is.

Ummmmm...... why?

This pre-industrial village doesn't have a female blacksmith hammering out heavy iron farm equipment. That's immersion-breaking. Same as the random peasant village women picking up random farm implements and confronting and killing a trolloc while taunting it. I'm all for badass female characters both magical and non-magical. I just don't like immersion-breaking nonsense thrown in there for a cheap pop from the Twitter feminist crowd. 👍

🇦🇺
 
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John Lee Pettimore

Further south than you
May 18, 2021
3,997
3,893
You need to work on your suspension of disbelief my friend. Learn to love it, because it’s not going anywhere (multi racial casting)
I am all for multi-racial casting.

But not everywhere, for everything.

I don't care if you have a black James Bond, or if all 4 of the main characters are whatever race or ethnicity you name. Doesn't matter to me, it's irrelevant to the story being told and the world being built.

But if they're from a nothing, near-totally isolated insignificant village in the middle of nowhere....... then whatever they are, they should all look like they come from the same place. If they're from a big city in this world then sure, make it a rainbow casting.

Look, it's not something I'm gonna get in a huff and call for a boycott over, or stop watching the show or anything dumb like that. :smile:

It's just a bit irritating to me because it's very heavyhanded, there's no creative necessity for it, and in fact it comes at the cost of a little bit of believability for the show's world.

Is all.

I can expand on it, if you like. :smile:

🇳🇿
 

kaladin stormblessed

TMMAC Addict
Apr 24, 2017
12,767
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Perrin has a wife now. Okay, whatever. Oh, and she's a blacksmith as well, and she's introduced working the forge by herself while everyone else is at the party. She's more into being a blacksmith than he is.

Ummmmm...... why?

This pre-industrial village doesn't have a female blacksmith hammering out heavy iron farm equipment. That's immersion-breaking. Same as the random peasant village women picking up random farm implements and confronting and killing a trolloc while taunting it. I'm all for badass female characters both magical and non-magical. I just don't like immersion-breaking nonsense thrown in there for a cheap pop from the Twitter feminist crowd. 👍

🇦🇺
EDIT: some very high-level type spoilers in this post below. nothing detailed. just world-building type stuff related to the Wheel / Magic / etc

the kids are aged up about 4 years in the show. in the books, Perrin actually reflects back on how if they hadn't left Emond's Field, he probably would have married Laila. since he is 4 years older in the show before leaving, it makes sense

in terms of her being a blacksmith, and woman not being blacksmiths in pre-industrial villages ... lol ... bro, this is a world with magic. not our world. there are entire badass armies of women fights. so if women blacksmiths gets to ya, then you may not like whats to come

in terms of Two rivers folks surrounding a trolloc with woods pitchforks, keep in mind this is a world of reincarnation. past lives bleed into peoples current lives. so during times of battle, people will suddenly know what to do even though they've never been in battle before. or they'll cry out in an old tongue a battle cry that one of their ancestors cried out

its a wild world. so a few Two Rivers folk (manatheren descendants) surrounding a trolloc makes sense. in fact, they will be way more badass in the future.

the last battle is coming!
 

kaladin stormblessed

TMMAC Addict
Apr 24, 2017
12,767
15,102
Oh, I hadn't though about that! And the circular nature of time and events in this universe can certainly provide a reason.

Well........



🇦🇺
hahah for sure. sorry i shoudlve read your response first

yeah, the cyclical nature + reincarnation concepts allows for a lot of flexibility compared to the real world
 
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kaladin stormblessed

TMMAC Addict
Apr 24, 2017
12,767
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This show worth watching? Amazon is pimping it pretty hard.
depends. if you like high-fantasy, then yes

so far, i love it. and knowing the full story, it just gets better and better. this initial story was intentionally tropey (as an home to Lord of the Rings). but after the second major plot (which they may or may not squeeze into season 1), this story takes on its own wings
 

kaladin stormblessed

TMMAC Addict
Apr 24, 2017
12,767
15,102
I will add that even if you don’t know what “high fantasy” means exactly, the show also works if you like watching “fantasy high.
lol well played

in regards to the term "high-fantasy," some people distinguish high vs low fantasy on the level of magic being high or low

personally, i prefer the term to distinguish between fantasy fiction that happens on a fake world vs our world

so for me, superman is low fantasy. game of thrones is high fantasy

ironically, there are very subtle clues* that the Third Age of the wheel of time that we are seeing play out now is a post-post-post-post apocolyptic earth upon which the First Age was our world, which ended in a nuclear war

* references to the "mosk vs merk," which is the result of thousands of years of the telephone-game on the names "moscow" and "america"
 

Dick Niaz

"Be available for life to happen" - Bill Murray
Jan 14, 2018
9,718
19,949
lol well played

in regards to the term "high-fantasy," some people distinguish high vs low fantasy on the level of magic being high or low

personally, i prefer the term to distinguish between fantasy fiction that happens on a fake world vs our world

so for me, superman is low fantasy. game of thrones is high fantasy

ironically, there are very subtle clues* that the Third Age of the wheel of time that we are seeing play out now is a post-post-post-post apocolyptic earth upon which the First Age was our world, which ended in a nuclear war

* references to the "mosk vs merk," which is the result of thousands of years of the telephone-game on the names "moscow" and "america"
It’s funny you say that about the subtle clues because I picked up on at least a few bits of dialogue that were almost too familiar for them to be using. I was willing to ignore them since I can’t really nitpick how realistic the writing is when I’m watching magic and horned monsters
 

kaladin stormblessed

TMMAC Addict
Apr 24, 2017
12,767
15,102
It’s funny you say that about the subtle clues because I picked up on at least a few bits of dialogue that were almost too familiar for them to be using. I was willing to ignore them since I can’t really nitpick how realistic the writing is when I’m watching magic and horned monsters
any lines in particular?

for me, its usually something specific. heres another fun example:

someone asks to hear the story of Lenn and how he flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire. or a story of his daughter walking among the stars

those are nods to john gLENN who orbitted the earth on the apollo nicknamed "eagle" and his daughter sally ride who was the first american woman in space