General Trump's travel bans and cuts to science could create a Canadian brain gain

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Freeloading Rusty

Here comes Rover, sniffin’ at your ass
Jan 11, 2016
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Trump's travel bans and cuts to science could create a Canadian brain gain

U.S. President Donald Trump's efforts to limit travel into his country while simultaneously cutting money from science-based programs provides an opportunity for Canada's science sector, says a leading Canadian researcher.

"This is Canada's moment. I think it's a time we should be bold," said Alan Bernstein, president of CIFAR, a global research network that funds hundreds of scientists in 16 countries.

Bernstein believes there are many reasons why Canada has become increasingly attractive to scientists around the world, including the political climate in the United States and the Trump administration's travel bans.

"It used to be if you were a bright young person anywhere in the world, you would want to go to Harvard or Berkeley or Stanford, or what have you. Now I think you should give pause to that," he said. "We have pretty good universities here. We speak English. We're a welcoming society for immigrants."

The latest executive order signed by Trump bans people from six Muslim-majority countries from getting visas to come to the U.S. for 90 days. (The order has been temporarily halted after a judge in Hawaii ruled the ban appears to unconstitutionally target Muslims.)
Bernstein said he has already spoken with three experienced scientists who want to transfer to Canadian universities, and two have received offers.

Rush Holt, head of the American Association for the Advancement of Science — the world's largest science membership organization — isn't surprised about this.

The association sent a letter to the White House, signed by all 182 member agencies, after Trump's first executive order targeting travel was signed in January, arguing it would affect scientists hoping to come to the U.S. Holt said the concerns didn't change with the second travel ban.

"We do know scientists around the world are considering boycotting meetings here. And they're demanding the international science society hold their meetings in other countries other than the United States. I don't like to see that," said Holt, who's also a former Democratic member of the U.S. House of Representatives.

Adding to the anxiety, Holt said, is the budget blueprint from the White House last week, which would cut funding for many science-based programs, from the environment to health.

U.S. budget director Mick Mulvaney said there are cuts to climate change research because the president believes it is a "waste of your money." Mulvaney also said there were "tremendous opportunities for savings" through cuts to the National Institutes for Health.

Time for Canada to step forward
Holt said younger scientists have organized a March for Science in April to send the message they disagree with the overall direction from the Trump administration.

"With this administration you don't even hear rhetoric that they have any understanding of what science could bring them. What science could bring their supporters even," Holt said.

Bernstein cautions that Canada should not be seen to be poaching scientists from the United States — but there is an opportunity.

"It's as if we've been in a choir of an opera in the back of the stage and all of a sudden the stars all left the stage. And the audience is expecting us to sing an aria. So we should sing," Bernstein said.

Bernstein said the federal government, with this week's so-called innovation budget, can help Canada hit the right notes.

"Innovation is built on fundamental science, so I'm looking to see if the government is willing to support, in a big way, fundamental science in the country."

Funding science in Canada
Federal Science Minister Kristy Duncan has been involved in a science review during the past year that examined all federal research to make sure it is flexible enough to respond to emerging opportunities.

She also pointed to the increases in funding in last year's budget to Canada's three largest granting councils: the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada, the Canadian Institutes of Health Research and the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council.

"We are committed to research, science, evidence-based policy. I'm proud of the investments our government made in the last budget. We had $2 billion for research and innovation infrastructure across the country. We made the largest investments in the three federal granting councils in a decade," Duncan told CBC Tuesday.

But Bernstein said that even with last year's influx of cash, the budgets for the granting councils still haven't kept pace with inflation in recent years.

"Those three big councils, they're the big ones who fund most university research, have not had a significant increase in their budgets for at least eight years. So the scientific community, the research community in Canada is hurting," Bernstein said.

Time to be bold
Duncan said she is aware of the increase in the number of foreign students wanting to come to Canada.

"We've seen an increase in the applications from international students, and I'm proud of the climate we're creating here, and we want to attract young people and to encourage young people to consider careers in science, technology, engineering and mathematics and particularly young women," Duncan told CBC.

Bernstein just hopes the government acts on this opportunity.

"We didn't seek this particular position in the world, but the stars are aligned. And I think we'd be making a huge mistake to let it go by without jumping on it and taking advantage of it. So this is our time to be bold and to take advantage of what's happening in the world."


'This is Canada's moment:' Could Donald Trump produce a brain gain here?
 
Last edited:

Yossarian

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Oct 25, 2015
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Trump's travel bans and cuts to science could create a Canadian brain gain

U.S. President Donald Trump's efforts to limit travel into his country while simultaneously cutting money from science-based programs provides an opportunity for Canada's science sector, says a leading Canadian researcher.

"This is Canada's moment. I think it's a time we should be bold," said Alan Bernstein, president of CIFAR, a global research network that funds hundreds of scientists in 16 countries.

Bernstein believes there are many reasons why Canada has become increasingly attractive to scientists around the world, including the political climate in the United States and the Trump administration's travel bans.

"It used to be if you were a bright young person anywhere in the world, you would want to go to Harvard or Berkeley or Stanford, or what have you. Now I think you should give pause to that," he said. "We have pretty good universities here. We speak English. We're a welcoming society for immigrants."

The latest executive order signed by Trump bans people from six Muslim-majority countries from getting visas to come to the U.S. for 90 days. (The order has been temporarily halted after a judge in Hawaii ruled the ban appears to unconstitutionally target Muslims.)
Bernstein said he has already spoken with three experienced scientists who want to transfer to Canadian universities, and two have received offers.

Rush Holt, head of the American Association for the Advancement of Science — the world's largest science membership organization — isn't surprised about this.

The association sent a letter to the White House, signed by all 182 member agencies, after Trump's first executive order targeting travel was signed in January, arguing it would affect scientists hoping to come to the U.S. Holt said the concerns didn't change with the second travel ban.

"We do know scientists around the world are considering boycotting meetings here. And they're demanding the international science society hold their meetings in other countries other than the United States. I don't like to see that," said Holt, who's also a former Democratic member of the U.S. House of Representatives.

Adding to the anxiety, Holt said, is the budget blueprint from the White House last week, which would cut funding for many science-based programs, from the environment to health.

U.S. budget director Mick Mulvaney said there are cuts to climate change research because the president believes it is a "waste of your money." Mulvaney also said there were "tremendous opportunities for savings" through cuts to the National Institutes for Health.

Time for Canada to step forward

Holt said younger scientists have organized a March for Science in April to send the message they disagree with the overall direction from the Trump administration.

"With this administration you don't even hear rhetoric that they have any understanding of what science could bring them. What science could bring their supporters even," Holt said.

Bernstein cautions that Canada should not be seen to be poaching scientists from the United States — but there is an opportunity.

"It's as if we've been in a choir of an opera in the back of the stage and all of a sudden the stars all left the stage. And the audience is expecting us to sing an aria. So we should sing," Bernstein said.

Bernstein said the federal government, with this week's so-called innovation budget, can help Canada hit the right notes.

"Innovation is built on fundamental science, so I'm looking to see if the government is willing to support, in a big way, fundamental science in the country."

Funding science in Canada

Federal Science Minister Kristy Duncan has been involved in a science review during the past year that examined all federal research to make sure it is flexible enough to respond to emerging opportunities.

She also pointed to the increases in funding in last year's budget to Canada's three largest granting councils: the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada, the Canadian Institutes of Health Research and the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council.

"We are committed to research, science, evidence-based policy. I'm proud of the investments our government made in the last budget. We had $2 billion for research and innovation infrastructure across the country. We made the largest investments in the three federal granting councils in a decade," Duncan told CBC Tuesday.

But Bernstein said that even with last year's influx of cash, the budgets for the granting councils still haven't kept pace with inflation in recent years.

"Those three big councils, they're the big ones who fund most university research, have not had a significant increase in their budgets for at least eight years. So the scientific community, the research community in Canada is hurting," Bernstein said.

Time to be bold

Duncan said she is aware of the increase in the number of foreign students wanting to come to Canada.

"We've seen an increase in the applications from international students, and I'm proud of the climate we're creating here, and we want to attract young people and to encourage young people to consider careers in science, technology, engineering and mathematics and particularly young women," Duncan told CBC.

Bernstein just hopes the government acts on this opportunity.

"We didn't seek this particular position in the world, but the stars are aligned. And I think we'd be making a huge mistake to let it go by without jumping on it and taking advantage of it. So this is our time to be bold and to take advantage of what's happening in the world."


'This is Canada's moment:' Could Donald Trump produce a brain gain here?
Why are you yelling?
 

jason73

Yuri Bezmenov was right
First 100
Jan 15, 2015
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we might as well let them in since most of our doctors and scientists brain drained to the united states years ago for better pay and more opportunities
 

BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
60,549
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None of this will happen.

There's no money left to spend, and they haven't been creating new medical or scientific positions (they've actually been cutting medical funding) This is posturing to make the PM swinging the doors open to illegal immigrants seem like a blessing. Typical spin work by the CBC.
 

Freeloading Rusty

Here comes Rover, sniffin’ at your ass
Jan 11, 2016
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None of this will happen.

There's no money left to spend, and they haven't been creating new medical or scientific positions (they've actually been cutting medical funding) This is posturing to make the PM swinging the doors open to illegal immigrants seem like a blessing. Typical spin work by the CBC.


Wait, no new medical or scientific positions?

Have you seen the massive new, technologically advanced Medical schools and universities they have been building in Western Canada?

How about the handful of new state of the art hospitals that just went up in BC?

In BC we have been screaming for more doctors and nurses for years and years. Any new medical professionals who want to work in BC will get a good job.
 

otaku1

TMMAC Addict
Jul 16, 2015
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Trump's travel bans and cuts to science could create a Canadian brain gain

U.S. President Donald Trump's efforts to limit travel into his country while simultaneously cutting money from science-based programs provides an opportunity for Canada's science sector, says a leading Canadian researcher.

"This is Canada's moment. I think it's a time we should be bold," said Alan Bernstein, president of CIFAR, a global research network that funds hundreds of scientists in 16 countries.

Bernstein believes there are many reasons why Canada has become increasingly attractive to scientists around the world, including the political climate in the United States and the Trump administration's travel bans.

"It used to be if you were a bright young person anywhere in the world, you would want to go to Harvard or Berkeley or Stanford, or what have you. Now I think you should give pause to that," he said. "We have pretty good universities here. We speak English. We're a welcoming society for immigrants."

The latest executive order signed by Trump bans people from six Muslim-majority countries from getting visas to come to the U.S. for 90 days. (The order has been temporarily halted after a judge in Hawaii ruled the ban appears to unconstitutionally target Muslims.)
Bernstein said he has already spoken with three experienced scientists who want to transfer to Canadian universities, and two have received offers.

Rush Holt, head of the American Association for the Advancement of Science — the world's largest science membership organization — isn't surprised about this.

The association sent a letter to the White House, signed by all 182 member agencies, after Trump's first executive order targeting travel was signed in January, arguing it would affect scientists hoping to come to the U.S. Holt said the concerns didn't change with the second travel ban.

"We do know scientists around the world are considering boycotting meetings here. And they're demanding the international science society hold their meetings in other countries other than the United States. I don't like to see that," said Holt, who's also a former Democratic member of the U.S. House of Representatives.

Adding to the anxiety, Holt said, is the budget blueprint from the White House last week, which would cut funding for many science-based programs, from the environment to health.

U.S. budget director Mick Mulvaney said there are cuts to climate change research because the president believes it is a "waste of your money." Mulvaney also said there were "tremendous opportunities for savings" through cuts to the National Institutes for Health.

Time for Canada to step forward

Holt said younger scientists have organized a March for Science in April to send the message they disagree with the overall direction from the Trump administration.

"With this administration you don't even hear rhetoric that they have any understanding of what science could bring them. What science could bring their supporters even," Holt said.

Bernstein cautions that Canada should not be seen to be poaching scientists from the United States — but there is an opportunity.

"It's as if we've been in a choir of an opera in the back of the stage and all of a sudden the stars all left the stage. And the audience is expecting us to sing an aria. So we should sing," Bernstein said.

Bernstein said the federal government, with this week's so-called innovation budget, can help Canada hit the right notes.

"Innovation is built on fundamental science, so I'm looking to see if the government is willing to support, in a big way, fundamental science in the country."

Funding science in Canada

Federal Science Minister Kristy Duncan has been involved in a science review during the past year that examined all federal research to make sure it is flexible enough to respond to emerging opportunities.

She also pointed to the increases in funding in last year's budget to Canada's three largest granting councils: the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada, the Canadian Institutes of Health Research and the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council.

"We are committed to research, science, evidence-based policy. I'm proud of the investments our government made in the last budget. We had $2 billion for research and innovation infrastructure across the country. We made the largest investments in the three federal granting councils in a decade," Duncan told CBC Tuesday.

But Bernstein said that even with last year's influx of cash, the budgets for the granting councils still haven't kept pace with inflation in recent years.

"Those three big councils, they're the big ones who fund most university research, have not had a significant increase in their budgets for at least eight years. So the scientific community, the research community in Canada is hurting," Bernstein said.

Time to be bold

Duncan said she is aware of the increase in the number of foreign students wanting to come to Canada.

"We've seen an increase in the applications from international students, and I'm proud of the climate we're creating here, and we want to attract young people and to encourage young people to consider careers in science, technology, engineering and mathematics and particularly young women," Duncan told CBC.

Bernstein just hopes the government acts on this opportunity.

"We didn't seek this particular position in the world, but the stars are aligned. And I think we'd be making a huge mistake to let it go by without jumping on it and taking advantage of it. So this is our time to be bold and to take advantage of what's happening in the world."


'This is Canada's moment:' Could Donald Trump produce a brain gain here?
Nope.
Won't happen.
Most liberal Americans I know freak out with our level of taxes.
Rest assured this is just speculation.
 

BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
60,549
56,270
Wait, no new medical or scientific positions?

Have you seen the massive new, technologically advanced Medical schools and universities they have been building in Western Canada?

How about the handful of new state of the art hospitals that just went up in BC?

In BC we have been screaming for more doctors and nurses for years and years. Any new medical professionals who want to work in BC will get a good job.
The federal government green lighting spending for infrastructure isn't the same as funding salaries for workers. They just cut medical funding to the provinces across the board. I think Manitoba is the last one that hasn't caved to the divide and conquer negotiation.

A friend of mine works in the marine biology field. She had to move to California because there was no work here. Her and her colleagues all put their hopes in the "New research based policies" basket. A year and a half later, they're all still in the states.
 

Freeloading Rusty

Here comes Rover, sniffin’ at your ass
Jan 11, 2016
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The federal government green lighting spending for infrastructure isn't the same as funding salaries for workers. They just cut medical funding to the provinces across the board. I think Manitoba is the last one that hasn't caved to the divide and conquer negotiation.

All I know is, BC is screaming for doctors and nurses. If your a doctor and/or nurse and you want a job, look towards BC, you will even get a fat signing bonus.

Also, at the nursing school in my town, it isnt uncommon for student nurses to be offered jobs even before they have finished their schooling and training.

Oh yeah, and the infrastructure you speak of, was started well before this Liberal Fed govt was in power and green lit infrastructure spending. These projects are either just being completed or will be completed within the year.

I thought medical funding was up to the individual provinces not the Federal govt?

Any proof to back up your claims the Feds have been cutting back on medical funding to hire docs and nurses?
 

BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
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I thought medical funding was up to the individual provinces not the Federal govt?
Combination of. The federal government allocates money to the provinces and it's up to them how they spend it. In cases like infrastructure all 3 levels typically work together due to the scale of the project and/or the amount of money involved.
 

otaku1

TMMAC Addict
Jul 16, 2015
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The federal government green lighting spending for infrastructure isn't the same as funding salaries for workers. They just cut medical funding to the provinces across the board. I think Manitoba is the last one that hasn't caved to the divide and conquer negotiation.

A friend of mine works in the marine biology field. She had to move to California because there was no work here. Her and her colleagues all put their hopes in the "New research based policies" basket. A year and a half later, they're all still in the states.
True.
Budget for infrastructure and health professional remuneration are 2 very different things.
We got 2 brand new modern hospitals here too in Mtl.
They haven't attracted foreign md's as far as I know.
 

BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
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True.
Budget for infrastructure and health professional remuneration are 2 very different things.
We got 2 brand new modern hospitals here too in Mtl.
They haven't attracted foreign md's as far as I know.
They just green lit one here in Ottawa. It was quite the boondoggle to watch the studies and evaluations get done only to be crumpled up and thrown in the garbage because they current government refused to acknowledge that the previous governments assessment was the correct one.
 

Freeloading Rusty

Here comes Rover, sniffin’ at your ass
Jan 11, 2016
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True.
Budget for infrastructure and health professional remuneration are 2 very different things.
We got 2 brand new modern hospitals here too in Mtl.
They haven't attracted foreign md's as far as I know.

We are not talking about attracting forgein MD's, we are talking about keeping Canadian ones working in Canada.
 

BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
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We are not talking about attracting forgein MD's, we are talking about keeping Canadian ones working in Canada.
The ones that lave do so for money. If we continue paying them substantially less (which we will) those MD's and nurses will continue to leave.
 

BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
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Is there really a brain drain of canadian md's to the U.S.? I'm wondering.
I know at least one doctor who moved from here to there, but for the money he's making there over staying here it's hard to blame him.
 

Freeloading Rusty

Here comes Rover, sniffin’ at your ass
Jan 11, 2016
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The ones that lave do so for money. If we continue paying them substantially less (which we will) those MD's and nurses will continue to leave.
In your OP, you stated they were leaving because we didnt have the opportunities or work for them. If they chose to leave for more money, that is out of our reach. The American $ is worth more than the Canadian $... The cost of attending medical school is significantly cheaper in Canada.


To say their isnt opportunities in Canada for more nurses and doctors to find employment is false.
 

BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
60,549
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In your OP, you stated they were leaving because we didnt have the opportunities or work for them. If they chose to leave for more money, that is out of our reach. The American $ is worth more than the Canadian $... The cost of attending medical school is significantly cheaper in Canada.


To say their isnt opportunities in Canada for more nurses and doctors to find employment is false.
My original statement was on the subject of us getting an influx of foreign medical or science workers (as that was the subject of the OP) I stand by that statement. Creating a bigger building =/= creating more jobs. You have to have money to pay the people to fill that physical space. In the case of Ontario they're actually firing medical staff.

The topic of doctors leaving here to go to the states is an entirely different one. The cost of attending a medical school in Canada being cheaper is a bit of a misnomer as it isn't available to a lot of medical students as we don't have enough spots to accommodate people trying to get into the field. Those students either choose other careers, or they study abroad (which is substantially more expensive) Having them study abroad is a 2 fold problem as 1) The cost of it keeps some from entering the field. 2) You're conditioning them to being comfortable to working abroad.

Do you think we should give all Canadian docs a % 25 pay increase at minimum?
I don't have those answers. I'd say as a general rule how people in western society as a whole is an incredibly broken system. Having said that, based on my own life experience I would say it's likely that people who want to be close to home will do so even if it means a pay cut. Those who don't care will chase the money. I wouldn't think us bumping our wages slightly is likely to change that.
 

Freeloading Rusty

Here comes Rover, sniffin’ at your ass
Jan 11, 2016
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Apparently I was still drunk this morning BeardOfKnowledge @JohnyHendricksBeard

I thought this thread was about Trumps new visa restrictions preventing Canadian nurses and doctors from working in the USA. I has just read that article the night before and assumed that was the one I posted. I have no dog in this fight, my points were based off a different issue.