Masvidal was the only one fighting last night. Literally the only entertaining parts were Jorge.
He just got a new 10 fight deal. Why would he sit?
UFC 251 results: Kamaru Usman dominates Jorge Masvidal with strong wrestling to retain title
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He just got a new 10 fight deal. Why would he sit?
This is a fairly ridiculous statement. I don't see how you could look at Usman's record and GSP's record and conclude that Usman is the one that has categorically faced better strikers.
Usman's striking has improved but the dude got pieced up in the first round by Demian Maia of all people and had to go to war with a very flawed striker in Colby. He is still very limited.
Usman has bigger power and a better chin than GSP. With GSP, guys had to worry about the takedown but not really the punching power. They were willing to walk through his shots to land their own. Guys can't really do that with Usman, which makes finding success on the feet against him even more difficult.
But GSP is quite clearly the more technically sound striker. Let's not be silly.
Exactly, Pierre never lost a round that was contested on the feet with the likes of Colby or a Maia, Meek gave him a bit of trouble in the striking exchanges as well if I remember correctly.
He is a shit striker, one look at the guy is all you need to see that, he has a bit of power and hes tough but he will never be on GSPs level with his timing and accuracy, or distance management, we'd have seen signs of it happening already, he doesn't have it, despite training with the probably the best kickboxing coach in the sport. Pierre was faster as well.
He is little black Randy, minus the boxing and twice the steroids.
Good points. GSP mostly got by on attributes too though. He had skill, but from the first time out of the gate we saw he had that something special that made him make guys like Mayhem look like they were white belts.
Also, we can't compare Covington to Fitch. Colby's boxing, while not great, was leagues better than Fitch and there was also the added factor of there being a lot of emotion in that fight. In fact, we can reasonably say that all MMA boxing is better these days than it was for most of GSP's prime. One of the things that made GSP so impressive was that he trained with elite wrestlers, BJJers, boxers and Muay Thai fighters when a lot of fighters might have one of those, but not all of them. These days that's no longer the case. More money in the sport means more expensive camps and you'd be hard pressed to find a contender who's not getting in rounds with top level guys from all the disciplines or getting top level training. COVID-19 of course complicates things and who knows what the training is looking like. I don't think you can say much about most of the fights happening right now and their long term implications for people's careers. I guarantee you if GSP had been scheduled to fight Nick Diaz (a dangerous BJJer with very good boxing like Durinho) and had the fight canceled with a 6 day replacement of Robbie Lawler (a hard hitting all rounder scrapper), he would have fought the same type of fight, smart and technical.
I do agree with you that Usman eats more shots than he should and it makes me believe he's going to get floored one day, but the guy has won 12 straight so he deserves some props. GSP is still safely the GOAT and it's good to be protective of them, but there once was a time when all people did on forums was trash him for being scared, safe and boring and it never made sense.
Also, we can't compare Covington to Fitch. Colby's boxing, while not great, was leagues better than Fitch and there was also the added factor of there being a lot of emotion in that fight. In fact, we can reasonably say that all MMA boxing is better these days than it was for most of GSP's prime. One of the things that made GSP so impressive was that he trained with elite wrestlers, BJJers, boxers and Muay Thai fighters when a lot of fighters might have one of those, but not all of them. These days that's no longer the case. More money in the sport means more expensive camps and you'd be hard pressed to find a contender who's not getting in rounds with top level guys from all the disciplines or getting top level training. COVID-19 of course complicates things and who knows what the training is looking like. I don't think you can say much about most of the fights happening right now and their long term implications for people's careers. I guarantee you if GSP had been scheduled to fight Nick Diaz (a dangerous BJJer with very good boxing like Durinho) and had the fight canceled with a 6 day replacement of Robbie Lawler (a hard hitting all rounder scrapper), he would have fought the same type of fight, smart and technical.
I do agree with you that Usman eats more shots than he should and it makes me believe he's going to get floored one day, but the guy has won 12 straight so he deserves some props. GSP is still safely the GOAT and it's good to be protective of them, but there once was a time when all people did on forums was trash him for being scared, safe and boring and it never made sense.
GSP had a solid 1-2 and a strong roundhouse kick and spinning back kick that he used to keep people guessing with which opened things up for his Superman punch. But we have to recognize that MMA boxing was still fairly primitive for most of the best parts of his career. Nick Diaz was the best technical boxer he faced and Georges had years of training with Roach by the time he fought him. When he faced Hendricks, who had a power straight and a half hearted jab and little else, but enough wrestling to be unthreatened by GSP's takedown, he lost. The record says he won, but that was a gift decision. The closest fighter to Hendricks Usman faced was Woodley (though he had much better awareness of timing and distance) and he annihilated him. Similarly Rey Longo taught Serra an overhand and that did a lot more damage to GSP than anything Maia did to Usman.
I don't dispute Georges is the best right now, but you guys knocking Usman are saying literally verbatim what people said about GSP just a few years ago. You could practically copy and paste the posts. Both guys are fun to watch and if you don't see it, it's hard to say you like MMA.
I can't really disagree with any of that Knee block. I never understood the hate for Pierre either, it mostly came from uneducated fans or people who just plain hated him.
I don't hate Usman either, I think he is a good fighter I just don't agree he is the best or anywhere near it, I don't even believe he is the best current WW, let alone on Pierres level.
He might get there someday but only on accomplishments, not on ability, not unless he improves in leaps and bounds over the next few years.
Same shit with Woodley, people trying to claim he was better than Pierre during his run or the WW GOAT when he never even came close in my opinion.
I don't hate Usman either, I think he is a good fighter I just don't agree he is the best or anywhere near it, I don't even believe he is the best current WW, let alone on Pierres level.
He might get there someday but only on accomplishments, not on ability, not unless he improves in leaps and bounds over the next few years.
Same shit with Woodley, people trying to claim he was better than Pierre during his run or the WW GOAT when he never even came close in my opinion.
It was his low kick that set the table for the superman punch, but fair points again. I never saw GSP avoid the fight or stall though, Usman does that quite a lot, just because they faced similar criticisims doesn't mean they are both justified. Pierre did damage or attempted to finish when he had dominant position, attempted subs, advanced position and in general was proactive in all of his fights.
I think this is generally true, but he didn't fight during a pandemic or ever fight with a 6 day notice switched opponent. I think what Usman lacks is the BJJ to be able to advance position like GSP did. On the ground he still fights like a wrestler for the most part, but he has more years on the wrestling mat to shake as his primary instincts. We'll see if he tightens his striking enough to avoid a KO or if a difficult BJJer like Durinho can get in there and put him in some trouble. I appreciate his sharpness and his control ability in the clinch. With Georges, it was his control of distance on the feet and space on the ground that made him so special. It's a shame the two aren't contemporaries of one another.
You're inventing in your mind an opinion of Usman that I don't have, going off on some tangent about me 'knocking' Usman and taking about how fun they are to watch, which I never said anything about.
I just said Usman is not as technically sound in striking as GSP. Which he clearly isn't. There's just not much I can really add to that. If you have eyes and have any rudimentary understanding of striking, you can see that GSP is more technically proficient than Usman. If you think Demian Maia and Colby Covington represent an 'evolved' form of MMA striking compared to some of the elite MMA strikers that GSP faced, then I can only suggest you stop drinking paint.
Who are the elite MMA strikers GSP faced? Karate Condit? Marquis de BJ Pennberry? Slow mo Diaz? Kru Alves?
You're right, mete, I concede. Colby Covington is a better striker than all of these guys. And by extension, Demian Maia is the best of them all as he pieced up both Colby and Usman on the feet before gassing.
It's just science. 40-year-old K1 Maia - the most evolved form of MMA striking we have ever seen.
Let's make some honest comparisons
Maia to Shields
Covington to Hendricks
Woodley to Hughes
Dos Anjos to Penn
Masvidal to Hardy (or Diaz)
Edwards to Condit
Moraes to Serra
W. Alves to T. Alves
I left off Bisping because the comparison is at welterweight. There is also the list of guys like Koscheck, Trigg, Fitch, Parisyan, Sherk and Miller that GSP faced, but none of those guys were known for having much in the way of striking. Still, they are a big part of the reason why he's the GOAT because in a time when many fighters were very good in one area and serviceable in others, Georges was already very good at everything.
The other decent strikers I left off were Spratt, Strasser and Hieron, but I guess we could reasonably compare them to some of Usman's early career opponents.
Forgiving those omissions, are we really going to pretend the fighters in the GSP list are somehow these elite strikers compared to the Usman list?
Covington to Hendricks is one of the oddest comparisons I have seen. You are comparing a guy who has never stopped an opponent on the feet in the UFC vs a roided out monster who was capable of flatlining dudes with one shot. Very different fighters on the feet, and Hendricks was far more dangerous even if he was technically shit.
I'm also not arguing that GSP's list is off the charts better than Usman's. But it is a bit better, yes. And the most important thing is that it's irrelevant as in most of these fights both Usman and GSP weren't just striking with these dudes, they were taking them down. We are not even doing MMAth - we are doing MMA dianetics here.
The only real way to tell who is the more technical striker is to simply put your glasses on and stop drinking bleach.
Fitch comparison doesn't fit the bill for the argument, but its a lot closer, also Hendrix arguably beat GSP too, makes Usman look better in how he delt with equally skilled opponents, if you didn't watch their careers or something.
Condit to Edwards is pretty funny too, Or Thiago to Warllery, shit even Woodley to Hughes, Woodley is closer to Hendrix in style than Hughes.
Strange post
Hendricks hurt GSP (and he didn't hurt him nearly as badly as Rogan would have you believe) on the feet in a round that GSP came back to win the rest of anyway.
If you score round 1 for Hendricks, you do so mainly on the back of some Travis Browne-style elbows defending a GSP TD (so a result of his elite wrestling defence and power, not striking technique) and Hendricks won round 4 because of a trip and some GnP.
GSP outstruck Hendricks fairly comfortably when they were just straight up in a standup battle, save for Hendricks' big moment in round 2. The problem for GSP was just that his strikes didn't really visibly hurt Hendricks, but he was still controlling the standup and was the far more polished of the two. There was just a serious differential in power when Hendricks did land.
This is what our old mate in this thread might need to grasp. You can be the better technical striker and still get KTFO if the other guy is more powerful and has a better chin. Dan Henderson made a career out of KOing dudes his shitty, telegraphed striking technique shouldn't have allowed him to.
I had GSP winning that one as well, I can't argue with a word of that, been too long since I watched the fight, I was along the same lines though, Hendricks landed the better strikes in the odd exchange but over all GSP controlled the action on the feet.
Hendo had a bit more than toughness and power, he was crafty with his shots especially in transition, his Renzo KO or Fedor KO are perfect examples of that, had great timing with his striking as well, it doesn't matter if its telegraphed if you can't get out of the way of it. I agree though. I wish he just admitted GSP doesn't have any performances exactly like Usman vs Masvidal instead of burying me in text.
It was telegraphed in the sense that he always had the same set ups. But it wasn't telegraphed in the sense that you really had time to react, as the H-bomb came fast and accurate.
You are correct that he did have that unique ability to nail people from odd positions - you can add Lombard and even Shogun 2 where he whipped around from a transition out of nowhere to that list too.
You can't back off your own argument that easily. Fine, let's swap out Hendricks for Koscheck in that case. Similar level of achievement between he and Covington in MMA. Better resume in wrestling for Kos arguably. Kos had a jab and little else. Colby had more. Or swap for another wrestler like Trigg if you like. Point stands that Colby had better boxing than any of the wrestlers GSP beat, including Hughes.
I'm not questioning GSP's skill. He was brilliant at every phase of the game and especially at transitioning between them. What I've said fairly consistently is in today's MMA guys are better at putting things together and certainly better at boxing, which tends to make guys today not look as world class as the folks who came before them.
Sorry if I missed it earlier in the thread, but can someone confirm your impression of this at the time:
View: https://mobile.twitter.com/HDoumergue/status/1282647813759754248
*another one:
View: https://mobile.twitter.com/fight_island/status/1282692755001610241
View: https://mobile.twitter.com/HDoumergue/status/1282647813759754248
*another one:
View: https://mobile.twitter.com/fight_island/status/1282692755001610241
'Today's MMA guys'. GSP won the MW title less than 3 years ago by using boxing against a guy who won and defended his title using boxing.
Conor McGregor has only had 2 fights since then. Stipe Miocic has had 3. We aren't talking millennia here, mete.
GSP first won the belt almost 14 years ago. We're getting up there.
In fact, it's been so long I can't even find the gif of Randy dancing on giphy and I'm now older than he was in that gif! ?
Head butts were blatant and did damage, at least 1 looked deliberate, didn't spot his dick grabbing at the time, Masvidals face is hilarious.
I painted about those head butts in the live thread after the low blow. What's it gonna take for refs to start taking away points after one warning?
Its ridiculous, should be one warning max and a point , right now it just depends on the ref, it still should to determine if it was deliberate but thats it.