USADA says Jones tested clean the night he fought Gus

Discussion in 'Cageside - MMA Discussion' started by MovinOn, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. CreativeClassMauler

    CreativeClassMauler Dressed for Success

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    4,226
    Ratings:
    +7,808
    I am not Luke Thomas and I understand what strict liability means in regards to anti-doping. Surely if you were arguing in good faith, you would just say "yep, my bad, I know it is not incumbent on USADA to 'prove it's a new ingestion'". I am aware of the challenges they would face, but that's not why I pulled you up.
     
  2. Andrewsimar Palhardass

    Andrewsimar Palhardass Women, dinosaurs, and the violence of the octagon.

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    5,147
    Ratings:
    +7,252
    Thank you for popping in and providing your assessment. I think to sum it up, USADA found something, they don't know if it's new or old, and they know they can't win in arbitration if they pursue it. UFC is presenting it as if it's definitive that he did nothing wrong this time, when there is no way they can know that, and they are fully aware of that fact even though they are pretending otherwise.
     
  3. Andrewsimar Palhardass

    Andrewsimar Palhardass Women, dinosaurs, and the violence of the octagon.

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    5,147
    Ratings:
    +7,252
    It's more of a "he might have done something wrong, and these tests don't completely add up, but to punish him we'd have to go outside of our own guidelines" on USADA's side, and "he might have done something wrong, but fuck it we need to safe face" on the UFC's side.

    Technically, it appears that all of the actual deceit has come from the UFC themselves. In either case, though, I think it's not as simple as you're presenting it, at least in the sense that it appears that your stance is that Jon clearly cheated again and everyone involved knows that, because based on the evidence that seems to not exactly be the case.
     
  4. Dat Pre-HollyHolm Ronda $

    Dat Pre-HollyHolm Ronda $ Posting Machine

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    Messages:
    6,848
    Ratings:
    +9,883
    Its not just that. Just look at Jon's track record for christs sake.

    We can't give him the benefit of the doubt and a clean slate

    He has a long and I mean l-o-n-g history of operating outside of the law.

    He has been lying to the public literally since day one.

    He doesn't get a clean slate. He's had a million clean slates.

    Now had this happened to someone with no history of disregarding the laws like
    DJ or someone like him that has never been in trouble then yes of course you give them
    the benefit of the doubt and consider this is way out of their character.

    But this is not the case with Juicy. This is not out of his character. Disregarding
    the law is so within his character its not even funny.

    At this rate It will be 500 violations from now and we are still giving Jon a pass.

    Shits gotta stop. Call a spade a spade
     
    #79 Dat Pre-HollyHolm Ronda $, Jan 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. Dat Pre-HollyHolm Ronda $

    Dat Pre-HollyHolm Ronda $ Posting Machine

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    Messages:
    6,848
    Ratings:
    +9,883

    Thanks for clearing some things up. I do have one question. I see many people
    throwing the idea out that USADA has to be fair to Jon Jones. Ok so when do they
    have to be fair to the athletes Jon is punching in the head?

    Dana and Novitzsky both sat there and told a bold faced lie to Gus for the sole purpose
    of getting him to take a fight with someone they knew full well had failed several tests.

    Jon has had a million chances man. He's been treated fairly a million times

    When does USADA stand up and treat the guys he punches in the head fairly?

    Why did they not immediately come out with a statement and truth about Jon's
    failed tests as soon as they saw Novitzsky lying to Gus and the public?

    How come they didn't look out for Gus?

    How come Jon is the only one being treated fairly and protected?

    If USADA had any credibility at all they would have stepped in immediately
    and told Dana and Novitzsky they can't be lying to Gus about Jon's multiple
    failed tests to coerce him into a fight
     
    #80 Dat Pre-HollyHolm Ronda $, Jan 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. jimmy boogaloo

    jimmy boogaloo General Links/Your Account

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2017
    Messages:
    2,151
    Ratings:
    +2,646
    bisping keeps it real

    Morning Report: Michael Bisping skeptical of Jon Jones’ drug testing situation, hopes the champion ‘stays clean’
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. Andrewsimar Palhardass

    Andrewsimar Palhardass Women, dinosaurs, and the violence of the octagon.

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    5,147
    Ratings:
    +7,252
    This isn't how litigation works. Past history is taken into account, but it can only be applied to a punishment after guilt is confirmed through due process. Unfortunately for many, scientifically, guilt would have been impossible to confirm in this scenario. We all know Jon is a serial fuck up. That doesn't change the evidence in this situation, though, and there just isn't enough smoke to prove fire at this point.
     
  8. John Cocktoastin

    John Cocktoastin No Comment
    First 100

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2015
    Messages:
    31,278
    Ratings:
    +37,915
    • Like Like x 1
  9. RaginCajun

    RaginCajun Undefeated in i don't know what

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2015
    Messages:
    14,019
    Ratings:
    +36,364
    [​IMG]
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. Dat Pre-HollyHolm Ronda $

    Dat Pre-HollyHolm Ronda $ Posting Machine

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    Messages:
    6,848
    Ratings:
    +9,883
    Thats fine and a fair point but lets not act like USADA is this virtuous institution looking
    out for the fighters. They are clearly not looking out for any fighters in this case except for Jon

    At minimum they should have informed Gus and made a public statement that
    Jon failed multiple test before letting Gus take the fight.

    Not only did they fail to inform Gus and protect him they did the same thing to Mark Hunt
    and allowed Brock another cheat to fight a clean fighter

    All I'm asking for is for them to apply the rules fairly and not bend the rules
    for certain fighters.
     
  11. Andrewsimar Palhardass

    Andrewsimar Palhardass Women, dinosaurs, and the violence of the octagon.

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    5,147
    Ratings:
    +7,252
    I see how you can feel that way, but in this case, they don't have the evidence to do what you would call looking out for the fighters. Their hands are tied. Antidoping has a ton of grey areas and I think even if you try your hardest and stick to your values 100%, weird things like this will pop up. I'm not saying it's a coincidence that this happened to the best fighter in the world, but if it had happened to a lower-level fighter I don't see a path to prosecution in that scenario either. As @Dim@Dim said, Jon's representation will bring up the fact that only long-term metabolites were found, and since USADA can't prove new use, they don't have a leg to stand on and they will lose in arbitration.
     
  12. Dat Pre-HollyHolm Ronda $

    Dat Pre-HollyHolm Ronda $ Posting Machine

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    Messages:
    6,848
    Ratings:
    +9,883
    They did have the evidence. They knew Jon failed multiple tests and knew Gus and the public
    were being lied too. Yet they did nothing.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  13. Andrewsimar Palhardass

    Andrewsimar Palhardass Women, dinosaurs, and the violence of the octagon.

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    5,147
    Ratings:
    +7,252
    That's not their job. The test results were eventually all released.

    What do you suggest they do? They have a very specific job. They test the fighters for the UFC and report their findings accordingly. They did that. They didn't release the statements that the UFC released, and they didn't tell Dana what to say.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. Dat Pre-HollyHolm Ronda $

    Dat Pre-HollyHolm Ronda $ Posting Machine

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    Messages:
    6,848
    Ratings:
    +9,883
    Now I'm confused. I thought their job was to protect clean fighters from fighting cheats?

    What do I suggest they do?

    Just common sense. Inform Gus that he is fighting someone with multiple failed tests.
    Inform the public that Novitzsky's statements are factually un true

    Just common sense and decency.

    Instead they once again bent the rules for one fighter and allowed a clean fighter
    to unknowingly fight a fighter who had failed steroid tests

    If USADA cant even do that then whats the point of having them around?

    The whole testing program becomes meaningless once you fail to protect
    clean fighters from fighting dirty fighters
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  15. Andrewsimar Palhardass

    Andrewsimar Palhardass Women, dinosaurs, and the violence of the octagon.

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    5,147
    Ratings:
    +7,252
    Also, when I said that they didn't have the evidence, I don't mean that they didn't know that the tests were coming back with the metabolite. They clearly new that. I am saying they didn't have the evidence to get a conviction. That's the big issue that is seemingly being ignored by a lot of people.
     
  16. Andrewsimar Palhardass

    Andrewsimar Palhardass Women, dinosaurs, and the violence of the octagon.

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    5,147
    Ratings:
    +7,252
    They could not definitively prove that he was still using. This is the distinction that I believe you are missing. USADA can't prosecute on hunches.
     
  17. Dat Pre-HollyHolm Ronda $

    Dat Pre-HollyHolm Ronda $ Posting Machine

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    Messages:
    6,848
    Ratings:
    +9,883
    Yeah I'm conceding that. Lets say they did not have the evidence to punish Jon.

    Ok no problem. Can we at least inform the guy he's going to punch in the head that
    Jon has failed multiple tests and that he's been lied to to get him to take the fight?
     
  18. Andrewsimar Palhardass

    Andrewsimar Palhardass Women, dinosaurs, and the violence of the octagon.

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    5,147
    Ratings:
    +7,252
    As for informing Gus, I am not sure what the process is for that so I won't speak on it. I am also not sure about informing the public RE: Novitsky's statements.

    Common sense matters, but when litigation is involved, common sense isn't enough.
     
  19. Andrewsimar Palhardass

    Andrewsimar Palhardass Women, dinosaurs, and the violence of the octagon.

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    5,147
    Ratings:
    +7,252
    I don't know what that would entail, and what they are allowed to release/when they are allowed to release it, but I think you raise a fair question. Gus at least knew that the current test was hot, and with the context that was being provided, it would be safe to assume that his previous tests were hot too, but yes I wish he would have been given full disclosure on that, I am just not sure that's USADA's job.
     
  20. Dat Pre-HollyHolm Ronda $

    Dat Pre-HollyHolm Ronda $ Posting Machine

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    Messages:
    6,848
    Ratings:
    +9,883
    If they can't inform the public that false statements have been made and they can't inform
    clean fighters that they are fighting someone with multiple failed steroid tests then would you
    at least agree that the system is broken and has failed to protect clean fighters?
     
  21. Dat Pre-HollyHolm Ronda $

    Dat Pre-HollyHolm Ronda $ Posting Machine

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    Messages:
    6,848
    Ratings:
    +9,883
    I agree there. Good back n forth by the way. I enjoy a nice discussion where
    people don't get their panties all in a bunch just because they disagree.

    Disagreement and discussion is good for the soul
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  22. Andrewsimar Palhardass

    Andrewsimar Palhardass Women, dinosaurs, and the violence of the octagon.

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    5,147
    Ratings:
    +7,252
    I am trying to think on that. My initial instinct would be to agree that they should have come forward when the embedded showing Gus being lied to was released, but this is SUCH a complicated situation that I don't want to make a snap judgment either way, really. We are missing a lot of context, in my eyes namely what their internal processes about releasing fighter data are, and why the original USADA statement (which I just went back and read) only referred to the December 9th results. I am just not sure when tests become publicly releasable, especially considering the fact that they just changed the rules when it comes to announcing potential positive tests.
     
  23. Andrewsimar Palhardass

    Andrewsimar Palhardass Women, dinosaurs, and the violence of the octagon.

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    5,147
    Ratings:
    +7,252
    I've certainly gotten into some knock down drag outs on here (@Rambo John J@Rambo John J) but yeah I do think it helps to talk to people with whom you disagree. This is such a weird situation I wanna hear from people who disagree but who aren't trying to get a posse together to burn some houses down.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  24. Dat Pre-HollyHolm Ronda $

    Dat Pre-HollyHolm Ronda $ Posting Machine

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2015
    Messages:
    6,848
    Ratings:
    +9,883
    Yeah its all fun to me. If you walk away from this forum pissed off then you
    are missing the point of being here. This is supposed to be something we enjoy
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  25. John Cocktoastin

    John Cocktoastin No Comment
    First 100

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2015
    Messages:
    31,278
    Ratings:
    +37,915
    lol how dare you tag me sir(joking)

    there is lawyer speak
    and there is logic

    loopholes and spin are easy to use to justify IMO

    Fighters losing braincells and having careers altered via uneven playing field not justifiable IMO

    I've been down this road too many times to get involved for more than a post or two
    take care guys
     
    • Like Like x 2
Draft saved Draft deleted