I Wasn’t Afraid of Anyone: The Vernon White Interview
Part Two of Three: Training at the Lion’s Den and Tensions in Pancrase
By William Colosimo | wcolosimo@yahoo.com
William Colosimo: Did Bob and Ken handle all your contract and business related affairs with Pancrase?
Vernon White: Yes, they did. I believe Bob did the majority of it.
Colosimo: Did you ever have any input on accepting or declining fights?
White: Not until later. Later, when I got into MMA, Ken was asking me, “You want to fight this guy?” And I’m like “Yeah.” “You want to fight that guy?” “Yeah.” I didn’t care, I wanted to fight whoever. And there was a couple times Ken was like “You’re not ready.” And I’m like “No, I want to fight- I want to fight whoever, I don’t care.” But he was like “You know, we’re gonna wait on this one.” Or something like that.
Colosimo: You’re talking about after Pancrase, once you started the NHB (no holds barred) stuff.
White: After Pancrase, yeah, when I started getting in the NHB, no holds barred. And I don’t think he did it because he thought I was gonna get hurt, I think he did it because just mentally, I was not ready. But yeah other than that, in Pancrase- no, he didn’t care who I fought, he was like “Yeah, go out and have fun.” And he would even say that. “Go have fun.” But, I knew what “Go have fun” meant- “Don’t come back here thinking ‘Oh, I should have done this, or I should have done that’- go out there and leave everything on the mat.”
Colosimo: How much did you train in the Pancrase dojo in Japan, and did you stay there for an extended period at one point, maybe in ’94? Training with the young boys? (Editor’s Note: “Young boys” refers to new trainees who basically act as interns)
White: I stayed there for two and a half months, and we trained a lot. Myself, Bas Rutten, we were both over there training. So, I know they did it because they wanted us to get better, they wanted us to be able to put on a show more and fight better. And it worked. Because I have to say- I moved a lot more, I was stronger. Even Ken came over and he made a comment about how thick my neck looked (laughter), Ken and the other guys.
Colosimo: I know the longest Bas stayed over in Japan was a full month, and that was in July of ’94 when there were two shows that month. So does the summer of ’94 sound like when you might have stayed there?
White: Yeah, we were there then. It was when they had a huge earthquake there. And I remember I actually donated my wrestling shoes to an auction there. I donated my shoes and I remember they said they made probably ninety dollars, and that money went to go help some of the victims.
Colosimo: There’s another name from around the time when you first joined- James Mathews. He fought on four of the very early Pancrase cards. Was he an early Lion’s Den member?
White: Yes, he was. I actually gave him my knee pads so he could go over and fight.
Colosimo: I heard those were actually very expensive. Scott said he used to borrow them all the time, too.
White: Yeah (laughter). He would borrow Ken’s, because Ken’s were the only ones he could fit. Scott was a big dude. Scott was like 270, 280.
Colosimo: Now what can you tell me about James Mathews? All I know about him is that he had four fights in Pancrase, and I can’t really find much about him.
White: Personally I don’t know too much about him. I know when he came into the gym, Ken made me initiate him. And I think I’d had two fights by the time James came in, and he complained to Ken that I was a pro. But I mean he still got in there, he did work, but then he left. I don’t think it was for him; he wasn’t that into it. He was definitely interesting though. He was one of the jokers of the group.
Colosimo: And from what you’re saying, if he came in after you and you were already fighting there- his fights were really early in that organization. So it sounds like from the time he met Ken, he was in Pancrase really, really quick.
White: Yeah, we both were. I had three months of training, three and a half months of training, and then I had my first fight. And just like James, Ken was bringing us in, trying to get us ready. You know most of us only had months of training, unlike Scott- Scott had some training, Noah had some training, this kid Daniel Zuniga- they had more time than I did, but Ken decided to put me in. I guess it’s because I was more athletic than they were? ‘Cause I started in taekwondo, and had actually did some tournaments- and I also fought in the streets. So…
Colosimo: Ken was originally supposed to participate in UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship) 2, but got injured sparring with you leading up to the show. Can you tell me how that went down?
White: He was telling me I needed to throw kicks, and so I was throwing kicks at him. And instead of blocking with his fingers together and closed, he had his hand open, and I kicked some of his fingers, and they said he had a boxing fracture. So, after that happened, we actually started talking to Maurice Smith, and Maurice Smith came in and started teaching us how to block correctly. And that actually started a new era with all of our striking.
Colosimo: Absolutely. Now that you bring up Maurice- he was in the gym for good chunks of time? I heard Ken used to go out to his place and train, but would Maurice come to the Den also and train for a while?
White: Yeah, Maurice is actually one of the ones who helped me to… what’s the word I’m looking for… fine tune my kicking abilities. Because when he first came in, he would just rip us to shreds with his leg kicks, and then he had to teach us how to start blocking. After he taught us how to start blocking, then we could actually start working on kicking off of a block, or takedowns off of a block, or punching off of a block. So, Maurice actually brought a different side to our fighting game that we never even knew we were missing. We were just getting beat up.
Colosimo: Now, in the weeks after UFC 2- so this is like March and April of ’94- the Lion’s Den picked up three new members: Sean Daugherty, then Jason DeLucia, and Frank Shamrock pretty much one right after the other. Sean told me he and Jason watched Frank’s tryout with Ken. Were you there also?
White: No, that was more private. Because Frank came in with a chip on his shoulder. If I was there, I don’t remember, because I try to block out violence (both laugh).
Colosimo: At that point, Sean, Jason, and Frank- they all lived at Ken’s house, but you lived at your own place?
White: Correct. I didn’t want to live in a house with a bunch of dudes.
Colosimo: I heard you lived with your girlfriend and they all lived in the house.
White: Yeah I lived with my girlfriend, ‘cause she lived in Stockton, and I did everything I could to not live in that house ‘cause they told me some of the jokes that they were playing on each other. I believe they actually lived at Ken’s house for a minute. And like I don’t want to be that close to my trainer, he micromanages in the gym, I’m not- yeah, I’m not trying to be there.
Colosimo: (Laughter) That makes a lot of sense. In Pancrase Jason and Frank had a similar style, was Frank Jason’s young boy in the beginning?
White: (Laughter) No.
Colosimo: Jason had a few fights in the UFC, he was there a few weeks in the Den before Frank got there, and I know they lived together- so what was the relationship between them then?
White: They were both young boys because they were living in that house together. So, Jason had some stand up ability over Frank, for sure. And he had some jiu-jitsu ability over Frank. But for the most part, they were equals. Ken did bring Jason in because Jason had fought Royce (Gracie) in the past. He was brought in as sort of a trainer for Ken, but not to be a “master” or anything over Frank or anybody else.
Colosimo: In the mid ‘90s you’d see some of the Lion’s Den guys with shaved heads, Ken did that to mimic what was done in Japan?
White: That is exactly what it was. It was to show respect for the older fighters that have actually gone through, that they were young boys and they were different from the fighters.
Colosimo: Eventually, the fighters moved out of Ken’s literal house and into a fighter’s house- but that was on Ken’s property somewhere?
White: I believe… it depends on where you’re talking about. If you’re talking about Susanville, he had rented a house for fighters to have, but as far as still being in the Lodi, Lockeford area, they had to get an apartment, and live in an apartment together.
Colosimo: I know Scott didn’t live there, you didn’t live there, but Sean, Frank, and Jason did. So did Ken expect you a certain number of days at the gym training, or was it mostly Frank, Jason, and Sean as kind of the core group there for a bit?
White: So, Frank actually ended up taking over the gym after Ken left for the WWE (Editor’s Note: World Wrestling Entertainment. Although at that point in time they were still the WWF, the World Wrestling Federation)-
Colosimo: You’re going- you’re jumping a couple years there. In ’97, the beginning of ’97.
White: Yeah. Ken was always in charge of the gym. Everybody just ran it together, because not only did the guys… they were mostly running our training, and then they would make me do a lot of the classes with the students. Frank and I, basically we were in there as dummies for the students, because the other guys didn't want to get hurt. And we would run it with Sean too, because he was right there, so…
Colosimo: Talk about the mentality of the Den at the time. Was there a camaraderie between those that could handle the intensity of the regular training at all?
White: There was always a mutual respect between us, but we would get on each other’s nerves. We were just like any other group of guys. Words would fly, the next thing you know we’d be in training together, and we knew not to put each other out ‘cause we had fights coming, but boy did we want to hurt each other sometimes.
Colosimo: Well it’s no secret Ken was- like say for instance Jerry (Bohlander) and Pete (Williams) had to fight NHB style to see who would fight in UFC 8 (Editor’s Note: I did an unreleased interview with Jerry Bohlander in 2006, where he informed me that at Ken Shamrock’s direction he had to fight against friend and teammate Pete Williams in a NHB match at the gym, with the winner getting a spot on the “David versus Goliath” tournament at UFC 8. Jerry won the gym fight with a heel hook). So I know a lot of you guys would just do basically NHB fighting amongst yourselves in the gym. Or is that not correct?
White: Well, Jerry and Pete were in two different weight classes. So, I don’t know why they would fight for that position- maybe that was something that I didn’t see or I wasn’t told about. But I was there five days a week, I was actually living an hour away, driving, and working every day at either Taco Bell or Round Table and I would drive down after work and come in and train. So, there may have been some stuff happening while I wasn’t there.
Colosimo: You had mentioned how Frank eventually took over when Ken had left for the WWF- before that, even in ’95 when Ken was King of Pancrase (KOP), UFC Superfight champ- I’m hearing that he was gone from the gym a lot, whether it’s partying or whether it’s simply traveling. So how much did you guys put together your own training menu? Say around ’95, like UFC 5, 6, 7- that era.
White: So, he actually put together a training- it was a little, I dare to say a pamphlet for the lack of a better word- but it was a curriculum on paper. And we had to go through that curriculum. So with every step that was on the curriculum, we actually had a color of a shirt- so we didn’t have belts- we had shirts. So it was white, green, red, brown, and then black shirt. And then a blue shirt was an instructor. So, we would take our students through those different- we actually didn’t have any student instructors until we got to San Diego. But yeah, that was our curriculum- I believe it was five, three to five pages of curriculum to take the students through. And we also did it because you have to master what you’re teaching, otherwise you’re not going to be a good teacher.
Colosimo: I’ve seen Ken had taught something, I know Frank had taught it in the past too, it was either the ten- or eleven- positions of submission wrestling. Is that something you had to learn?
White: Yes. We had ten; there was much more because there was so many different variations of how you end up on the ground. And all those were based off of what Ken had taught us.
Colosimo: There were some of those that seemed like they never had a practical application. Were there certain of those ten that you guys questioned “We’re never getting into these positions while rolling, why are we learning these?”
White: Well actually, when we would get someone who was lazy, we could get into all those positions. But when you get someone who knows what they’re doing, yeah some of the positions we could never get into because they know it’s coming. But that was also part of teaching people- so we wouldn’t get lazy. When you get lazy, you get caught. When you get caught, you don’t make any money.
Colosimo: Say by 1994, 1995- fairly early on- I understand there was a lot of partying going on at the Den by that time. Were there any stories you have that won’t get anyone into too much trouble?
White: I wasn’t really partying with those guys; I was out doing my own thing-
Colosimo: Sean told me you tried to get him to dance at a gay bar or something?
White: What? (Laughter)
Colosimo: Yeah, he mentioned it. He said you almost convinced him to do that.
White: Oh my God. No. That guy danced at gay bars on his own (both laugh). The place that I’d go to was Stockton Rocks. I had met some guys, and they were like “Hey, you look like you’re in good shape. You want to come out and dance with us?” So, I’m like “Dance?” So they took me to the show, and I ended up working there as a bouncer for a while too.
Colosimo: Oh- Stockton Rocks is the gay bar you’re talking about.
White: It’s not a gay bar. Some of the dancers may have been gay, but I wasn’t there to get with the dancers, I was there to get with the girls. I even- the girl that I had met, I met her at Stockton Rocks before these guys even came around.
Colosimo: And that’s the girl you were living with at that time when they were living in the house.
White: Yeah.
Colosimo: Ken’s mentioned off and on for years the two Suzuki fights that he had to work, along with the second Funaki fight. At the time, did Ken tell you about those situations?
White: He had mentioned people being hurt, and making sure that they didn’t get hurt any worse. So, if that means anything- then yes.
Colosimo: Did you notice for his two Suzuki fights- one being a KOP title fight- him training any different for those?
White: No, Ken never really changed his training. Even when it came to that, he was always hard working and dedicated. And if he felt like he was lagging in one area, he’d work harder somewhere else. So, he wouldn’t let anything mentally get in his way. Even stuff happening with us, it’s like it didn’t bother him. He was a machine.
Colosimo: Sean mentioned something about that- when Frank Lobman had a kickboxing fight with Ken, Ken’s leg was pretty much destroyed, but he came home and he was just doing hundreds of squats on the injured leg.
White: Working out that lactic acid.
Colosimo: Now Ken’s first match with Suzuki- Ken was put in a knee bar, he got hurt, he was pissed off about that. His return fight was Ryushi Yanagisawa and then Ken injured him with a heel hook, and took Yanagisawa out for a while (Editor’s Note: Ken Shamrock versus Minoru Suzuki 1 took place on January 19th, 1994. Shamrock versus Ryushi Yanagisawa happened on April 21st, 1994. Yanagisawa didn’t return to Pancrase until the July 22nd, 1995 event). So do you remember anything about those two consecutive matches of Ken’s, where his attitude towards Pancrase- the organization- was changing any?
White: I could see the look on his face during the fight. When I watched his leg turn over-
Colosimo: Wait- this is Suzuki the first time?
White: Yes. During the match I remember seeing his face, and then he says “Damn it!” And he said it really loud and I’m like “Huh. Somethin’s wrong.” And at that time, I didn’t realize what was going on- like he handed it to Suzuki, and Suzuki turned it as hard as he could. And I remember how angry he was after the match and yeah… things were hard for us after that. I just remember he got even tougher on us, he was like “Don’t…” He would get mad at us for leaving stuff hanging out, and there was a lot of stuff that was going on. So, he would tell us “Don’t give anybody anything,” and he got real tough on us there for a while.
Colosimo: And you know, the match after he hurt Yanagisawa was the kickboxing match with Frank Lobman. No one mentioned this to me, but I’m starting to wonder- in Pancrase, if they wanted to “punish” Ken for what he did to Yanagisawa, nobody could really beat him- so they had to put him against a monster in kickboxing to hurt him and teach him a lesson to play nice. Do you think that’s maybe why they gave him that kickboxing fight?
White: I’m not sure, because they used Ken to put people down before. So, I don’t know what the whole logistics was behind him going against him.
Colosimo: To put people down- what did you mean by that?
White: Like when they had people that would come in from other organizations- even in, I forgot the guy, there was a kickboxer guy- they had Ken go with the kickboxer because-
Colosimo: Yeah. Don “Nakaya” Nielsen in Fujiwara-Gumi- the real fight there.
White: Yeah. Like, they would put Ken in when they wanted to make people look bad (both laugh). So, as far as this guy, I don’t know. But I can tell you one thing, the dude that we had coaching Ken- huh. Basically had no idea what he was doing, which was another reason why we brought in Maurice Smith.
Colosimo: I heard Maurice was not happy that he wasn’t used to train Ken for that fight.
White: I’m sure he wasn’t. I’m almost sure he wasn’t because yeah, he could have helped Ken out a lot in that fight.
Part Two of Three: Training at the Lion’s Den and Tensions in Pancrase
By William Colosimo | wcolosimo@yahoo.com
William Colosimo: Did Bob and Ken handle all your contract and business related affairs with Pancrase?
Vernon White: Yes, they did. I believe Bob did the majority of it.
Colosimo: Did you ever have any input on accepting or declining fights?
White: Not until later. Later, when I got into MMA, Ken was asking me, “You want to fight this guy?” And I’m like “Yeah.” “You want to fight that guy?” “Yeah.” I didn’t care, I wanted to fight whoever. And there was a couple times Ken was like “You’re not ready.” And I’m like “No, I want to fight- I want to fight whoever, I don’t care.” But he was like “You know, we’re gonna wait on this one.” Or something like that.
Colosimo: You’re talking about after Pancrase, once you started the NHB (no holds barred) stuff.
White: After Pancrase, yeah, when I started getting in the NHB, no holds barred. And I don’t think he did it because he thought I was gonna get hurt, I think he did it because just mentally, I was not ready. But yeah other than that, in Pancrase- no, he didn’t care who I fought, he was like “Yeah, go out and have fun.” And he would even say that. “Go have fun.” But, I knew what “Go have fun” meant- “Don’t come back here thinking ‘Oh, I should have done this, or I should have done that’- go out there and leave everything on the mat.”
Colosimo: How much did you train in the Pancrase dojo in Japan, and did you stay there for an extended period at one point, maybe in ’94? Training with the young boys? (Editor’s Note: “Young boys” refers to new trainees who basically act as interns)
White: I stayed there for two and a half months, and we trained a lot. Myself, Bas Rutten, we were both over there training. So, I know they did it because they wanted us to get better, they wanted us to be able to put on a show more and fight better. And it worked. Because I have to say- I moved a lot more, I was stronger. Even Ken came over and he made a comment about how thick my neck looked (laughter), Ken and the other guys.
Colosimo: I know the longest Bas stayed over in Japan was a full month, and that was in July of ’94 when there were two shows that month. So does the summer of ’94 sound like when you might have stayed there?
White: Yeah, we were there then. It was when they had a huge earthquake there. And I remember I actually donated my wrestling shoes to an auction there. I donated my shoes and I remember they said they made probably ninety dollars, and that money went to go help some of the victims.
Colosimo: There’s another name from around the time when you first joined- James Mathews. He fought on four of the very early Pancrase cards. Was he an early Lion’s Den member?
White: Yes, he was. I actually gave him my knee pads so he could go over and fight.
Colosimo: I heard those were actually very expensive. Scott said he used to borrow them all the time, too.
White: Yeah (laughter). He would borrow Ken’s, because Ken’s were the only ones he could fit. Scott was a big dude. Scott was like 270, 280.
Colosimo: Now what can you tell me about James Mathews? All I know about him is that he had four fights in Pancrase, and I can’t really find much about him.
White: Personally I don’t know too much about him. I know when he came into the gym, Ken made me initiate him. And I think I’d had two fights by the time James came in, and he complained to Ken that I was a pro. But I mean he still got in there, he did work, but then he left. I don’t think it was for him; he wasn’t that into it. He was definitely interesting though. He was one of the jokers of the group.
Colosimo: And from what you’re saying, if he came in after you and you were already fighting there- his fights were really early in that organization. So it sounds like from the time he met Ken, he was in Pancrase really, really quick.
White: Yeah, we both were. I had three months of training, three and a half months of training, and then I had my first fight. And just like James, Ken was bringing us in, trying to get us ready. You know most of us only had months of training, unlike Scott- Scott had some training, Noah had some training, this kid Daniel Zuniga- they had more time than I did, but Ken decided to put me in. I guess it’s because I was more athletic than they were? ‘Cause I started in taekwondo, and had actually did some tournaments- and I also fought in the streets. So…
Colosimo: Ken was originally supposed to participate in UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship) 2, but got injured sparring with you leading up to the show. Can you tell me how that went down?
White: He was telling me I needed to throw kicks, and so I was throwing kicks at him. And instead of blocking with his fingers together and closed, he had his hand open, and I kicked some of his fingers, and they said he had a boxing fracture. So, after that happened, we actually started talking to Maurice Smith, and Maurice Smith came in and started teaching us how to block correctly. And that actually started a new era with all of our striking.
Colosimo: Absolutely. Now that you bring up Maurice- he was in the gym for good chunks of time? I heard Ken used to go out to his place and train, but would Maurice come to the Den also and train for a while?
White: Yeah, Maurice is actually one of the ones who helped me to… what’s the word I’m looking for… fine tune my kicking abilities. Because when he first came in, he would just rip us to shreds with his leg kicks, and then he had to teach us how to start blocking. After he taught us how to start blocking, then we could actually start working on kicking off of a block, or takedowns off of a block, or punching off of a block. So, Maurice actually brought a different side to our fighting game that we never even knew we were missing. We were just getting beat up.
Colosimo: Now, in the weeks after UFC 2- so this is like March and April of ’94- the Lion’s Den picked up three new members: Sean Daugherty, then Jason DeLucia, and Frank Shamrock pretty much one right after the other. Sean told me he and Jason watched Frank’s tryout with Ken. Were you there also?
White: No, that was more private. Because Frank came in with a chip on his shoulder. If I was there, I don’t remember, because I try to block out violence (both laugh).
Colosimo: At that point, Sean, Jason, and Frank- they all lived at Ken’s house, but you lived at your own place?
White: Correct. I didn’t want to live in a house with a bunch of dudes.
Colosimo: I heard you lived with your girlfriend and they all lived in the house.
White: Yeah I lived with my girlfriend, ‘cause she lived in Stockton, and I did everything I could to not live in that house ‘cause they told me some of the jokes that they were playing on each other. I believe they actually lived at Ken’s house for a minute. And like I don’t want to be that close to my trainer, he micromanages in the gym, I’m not- yeah, I’m not trying to be there.
Colosimo: (Laughter) That makes a lot of sense. In Pancrase Jason and Frank had a similar style, was Frank Jason’s young boy in the beginning?
White: (Laughter) No.
Colosimo: Jason had a few fights in the UFC, he was there a few weeks in the Den before Frank got there, and I know they lived together- so what was the relationship between them then?
White: They were both young boys because they were living in that house together. So, Jason had some stand up ability over Frank, for sure. And he had some jiu-jitsu ability over Frank. But for the most part, they were equals. Ken did bring Jason in because Jason had fought Royce (Gracie) in the past. He was brought in as sort of a trainer for Ken, but not to be a “master” or anything over Frank or anybody else.
Colosimo: In the mid ‘90s you’d see some of the Lion’s Den guys with shaved heads, Ken did that to mimic what was done in Japan?
White: That is exactly what it was. It was to show respect for the older fighters that have actually gone through, that they were young boys and they were different from the fighters.
Colosimo: Eventually, the fighters moved out of Ken’s literal house and into a fighter’s house- but that was on Ken’s property somewhere?
White: I believe… it depends on where you’re talking about. If you’re talking about Susanville, he had rented a house for fighters to have, but as far as still being in the Lodi, Lockeford area, they had to get an apartment, and live in an apartment together.
Colosimo: I know Scott didn’t live there, you didn’t live there, but Sean, Frank, and Jason did. So did Ken expect you a certain number of days at the gym training, or was it mostly Frank, Jason, and Sean as kind of the core group there for a bit?
White: So, Frank actually ended up taking over the gym after Ken left for the WWE (Editor’s Note: World Wrestling Entertainment. Although at that point in time they were still the WWF, the World Wrestling Federation)-
Colosimo: You’re going- you’re jumping a couple years there. In ’97, the beginning of ’97.
White: Yeah. Ken was always in charge of the gym. Everybody just ran it together, because not only did the guys… they were mostly running our training, and then they would make me do a lot of the classes with the students. Frank and I, basically we were in there as dummies for the students, because the other guys didn't want to get hurt. And we would run it with Sean too, because he was right there, so…
Colosimo: Talk about the mentality of the Den at the time. Was there a camaraderie between those that could handle the intensity of the regular training at all?
White: There was always a mutual respect between us, but we would get on each other’s nerves. We were just like any other group of guys. Words would fly, the next thing you know we’d be in training together, and we knew not to put each other out ‘cause we had fights coming, but boy did we want to hurt each other sometimes.
Colosimo: Well it’s no secret Ken was- like say for instance Jerry (Bohlander) and Pete (Williams) had to fight NHB style to see who would fight in UFC 8 (Editor’s Note: I did an unreleased interview with Jerry Bohlander in 2006, where he informed me that at Ken Shamrock’s direction he had to fight against friend and teammate Pete Williams in a NHB match at the gym, with the winner getting a spot on the “David versus Goliath” tournament at UFC 8. Jerry won the gym fight with a heel hook). So I know a lot of you guys would just do basically NHB fighting amongst yourselves in the gym. Or is that not correct?
White: Well, Jerry and Pete were in two different weight classes. So, I don’t know why they would fight for that position- maybe that was something that I didn’t see or I wasn’t told about. But I was there five days a week, I was actually living an hour away, driving, and working every day at either Taco Bell or Round Table and I would drive down after work and come in and train. So, there may have been some stuff happening while I wasn’t there.
Colosimo: You had mentioned how Frank eventually took over when Ken had left for the WWF- before that, even in ’95 when Ken was King of Pancrase (KOP), UFC Superfight champ- I’m hearing that he was gone from the gym a lot, whether it’s partying or whether it’s simply traveling. So how much did you guys put together your own training menu? Say around ’95, like UFC 5, 6, 7- that era.
White: So, he actually put together a training- it was a little, I dare to say a pamphlet for the lack of a better word- but it was a curriculum on paper. And we had to go through that curriculum. So with every step that was on the curriculum, we actually had a color of a shirt- so we didn’t have belts- we had shirts. So it was white, green, red, brown, and then black shirt. And then a blue shirt was an instructor. So, we would take our students through those different- we actually didn’t have any student instructors until we got to San Diego. But yeah, that was our curriculum- I believe it was five, three to five pages of curriculum to take the students through. And we also did it because you have to master what you’re teaching, otherwise you’re not going to be a good teacher.
Colosimo: I’ve seen Ken had taught something, I know Frank had taught it in the past too, it was either the ten- or eleven- positions of submission wrestling. Is that something you had to learn?
White: Yes. We had ten; there was much more because there was so many different variations of how you end up on the ground. And all those were based off of what Ken had taught us.
Colosimo: There were some of those that seemed like they never had a practical application. Were there certain of those ten that you guys questioned “We’re never getting into these positions while rolling, why are we learning these?”
White: Well actually, when we would get someone who was lazy, we could get into all those positions. But when you get someone who knows what they’re doing, yeah some of the positions we could never get into because they know it’s coming. But that was also part of teaching people- so we wouldn’t get lazy. When you get lazy, you get caught. When you get caught, you don’t make any money.
Colosimo: Say by 1994, 1995- fairly early on- I understand there was a lot of partying going on at the Den by that time. Were there any stories you have that won’t get anyone into too much trouble?
White: I wasn’t really partying with those guys; I was out doing my own thing-
Colosimo: Sean told me you tried to get him to dance at a gay bar or something?
White: What? (Laughter)
Colosimo: Yeah, he mentioned it. He said you almost convinced him to do that.
White: Oh my God. No. That guy danced at gay bars on his own (both laugh). The place that I’d go to was Stockton Rocks. I had met some guys, and they were like “Hey, you look like you’re in good shape. You want to come out and dance with us?” So, I’m like “Dance?” So they took me to the show, and I ended up working there as a bouncer for a while too.
Colosimo: Oh- Stockton Rocks is the gay bar you’re talking about.
White: It’s not a gay bar. Some of the dancers may have been gay, but I wasn’t there to get with the dancers, I was there to get with the girls. I even- the girl that I had met, I met her at Stockton Rocks before these guys even came around.
Colosimo: And that’s the girl you were living with at that time when they were living in the house.
White: Yeah.
Colosimo: Ken’s mentioned off and on for years the two Suzuki fights that he had to work, along with the second Funaki fight. At the time, did Ken tell you about those situations?
White: He had mentioned people being hurt, and making sure that they didn’t get hurt any worse. So, if that means anything- then yes.
Colosimo: Did you notice for his two Suzuki fights- one being a KOP title fight- him training any different for those?
White: No, Ken never really changed his training. Even when it came to that, he was always hard working and dedicated. And if he felt like he was lagging in one area, he’d work harder somewhere else. So, he wouldn’t let anything mentally get in his way. Even stuff happening with us, it’s like it didn’t bother him. He was a machine.
Colosimo: Sean mentioned something about that- when Frank Lobman had a kickboxing fight with Ken, Ken’s leg was pretty much destroyed, but he came home and he was just doing hundreds of squats on the injured leg.
White: Working out that lactic acid.
Colosimo: Now Ken’s first match with Suzuki- Ken was put in a knee bar, he got hurt, he was pissed off about that. His return fight was Ryushi Yanagisawa and then Ken injured him with a heel hook, and took Yanagisawa out for a while (Editor’s Note: Ken Shamrock versus Minoru Suzuki 1 took place on January 19th, 1994. Shamrock versus Ryushi Yanagisawa happened on April 21st, 1994. Yanagisawa didn’t return to Pancrase until the July 22nd, 1995 event). So do you remember anything about those two consecutive matches of Ken’s, where his attitude towards Pancrase- the organization- was changing any?
White: I could see the look on his face during the fight. When I watched his leg turn over-
Colosimo: Wait- this is Suzuki the first time?
White: Yes. During the match I remember seeing his face, and then he says “Damn it!” And he said it really loud and I’m like “Huh. Somethin’s wrong.” And at that time, I didn’t realize what was going on- like he handed it to Suzuki, and Suzuki turned it as hard as he could. And I remember how angry he was after the match and yeah… things were hard for us after that. I just remember he got even tougher on us, he was like “Don’t…” He would get mad at us for leaving stuff hanging out, and there was a lot of stuff that was going on. So, he would tell us “Don’t give anybody anything,” and he got real tough on us there for a while.
Colosimo: And you know, the match after he hurt Yanagisawa was the kickboxing match with Frank Lobman. No one mentioned this to me, but I’m starting to wonder- in Pancrase, if they wanted to “punish” Ken for what he did to Yanagisawa, nobody could really beat him- so they had to put him against a monster in kickboxing to hurt him and teach him a lesson to play nice. Do you think that’s maybe why they gave him that kickboxing fight?
White: I’m not sure, because they used Ken to put people down before. So, I don’t know what the whole logistics was behind him going against him.
Colosimo: To put people down- what did you mean by that?
White: Like when they had people that would come in from other organizations- even in, I forgot the guy, there was a kickboxer guy- they had Ken go with the kickboxer because-
Colosimo: Yeah. Don “Nakaya” Nielsen in Fujiwara-Gumi- the real fight there.
White: Yeah. Like, they would put Ken in when they wanted to make people look bad (both laugh). So, as far as this guy, I don’t know. But I can tell you one thing, the dude that we had coaching Ken- huh. Basically had no idea what he was doing, which was another reason why we brought in Maurice Smith.
Colosimo: I heard Maurice was not happy that he wasn’t used to train Ken for that fight.
White: I’m sure he wasn’t. I’m almost sure he wasn’t because yeah, he could have helped Ken out a lot in that fight.
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