Volk-Max and the Impact of Biased Commentary

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Sheepdog

Protecting America from excessive stool loitering
Dec 1, 2015
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I think this fight is a perfect case study into how much biased commentary influences perceptions of fights. Because it's not just that the commentary seemed to sway almost the entire fanbase into calling 'robbery', but that it got people to be so specifically wrong.

The narrarive now is that 'Max won the first 3 rounds, Volkanovski won 4 and 5'. And what is so bizarre about this is that round 3 wasn't particularly close but round 4 was.

Here's a good breakdown of round 3 from some youtuber who initially scored the fight for Max. He points out correctly that Volk landed the bigger strikes in the round and clearly deserved to win it.


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z3pl6B3Srnc


If Max won this fight, it's because he won rounds 1, 2 and 4. He didn't win round 3. That so many people gave him a round that he clearly didn't win shows how much they are just repeating what Bisping said.
 

BenAskrensStrikingcoach

Formerly formulating formally
Jan 30, 2015
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They were both close enough rounds but yeah, Max had more of a shout of winning the 4th than the 3rd, despite the strike numbers.

Didn't one of the judges give Max the 5th?

Mma judging is ridiculous.
 

Sheepdog

Protecting America from excessive stool loitering
Dec 1, 2015
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They were both close enough rounds but yeah, Max had more of a shout of winning the 4th than the 3rd, despite the strike numbers.

Didn't one of the judges give Max the 5th?

Mma judging is ridiculous.
I just don't agree that round 3 was that close. If you look at the breakdown video I posted, it's even generous to Max despite concluding that he lost, crediting him with a blocked flying knee and a blocked high kick. Volk landed 6-7 really good clean punches that visibly snapped Max's head back. Max landed one such punch. It wasn't a dominant round, but it was a clear round.

With the benefit of hindsight and replays, no person with any credibility should be scoring that round for Max.
 

SuperPig

Enjoy yourselves
Aug 7, 2015
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I thought Max won. Under the current scoring I can understand it going to Volk. But the first and second rounds being scored the same as the 3rd and 4th (as in 10-9 or 9-10) is shenanigans.
 

Sheepdog

Protecting America from excessive stool loitering
Dec 1, 2015
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1 and 2 - clearly Max

3 and 4 - close

5 - clearly Volkanovski
An interesting dynamic is that in a few high profile decisions the MMA world gets its panties twisted over - Jones vs Reyes, GSP vs Hendricks, this one - the guy casuals (who don't understand the 10-9 system) think got robbed indisputably lost round 5.

This shows that the boogeyman of 'recency bias' used to argue against calls for Pride scoring may actually be way overblown. It seems if anything that people might even have a bias to the beginning of the fight - they make up their mind who is winning, and like Bisping on commentary, convince themselves that the other guy can't win without a stoppage.
 

Sheepdog

Protecting America from excessive stool loitering
Dec 1, 2015
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I thought Max won. Under the current scoring I can understand it going to Volk. But the first and second rounds being scored the same as the 3rd and 4th (as in 10-9 or 9-10) is shenanigans.
Under Pride scoring, nobody credible could argue that Volk won. It's why we should use Pride scoring. I don't think you can solve any of these problems within the 10-9 system - the system itself is the problem.

I know some people argue we should just hand out more 10-8s, but it's just too heavy a price to pay for a guy who suffers quick knockdowns like Volk did in rounds 1 and 2, when Volk actually matched Max's striking volume in those rounds and hardly got dominated for the whole 10 minutes. Giving automatic 10-8s for knockdowns basically means that everything else that may happen in a 25 minute fight is made irrelevant because of a couple of clean strikes a guy quickly recovered from, like in this fight.

You are far better off just using the Pride system where at the end of the fight you can clearly say 'Max won because those two knockdowns were clearly the difference in this otherwise razor close fight' rather than arbitrarily locking yourself into just essentially handing Max the fight at the 10-minute mark of a 25-minute fight.
 
M

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Guest
It seems if anything that people might even have a bias to the beginning of the fight - they make up their mind who is winning, and like Bisping on commentary, convince themselves that the other guy can't win without a stoppage.
Especially true for this fight given that Max knocked Volk down once in round 1 and once in round 2. The knockdowns were definitely not enough to score any of the rounds 10-8 (any argument to the contrary is ridiculous), but people in one of the WhatsApp groups I'm in were saying that Alex needed a finish to win the fight before the start of round 3 lol. They clearly have no idea how the 10-point must system works.

I scored round 4 for Max but I don't think that giving it to Volkanovski constitutes a robbery. Looking at the fight in its entirety, Max definitely landed the best strikes. But that's not how fights are scored.
 

Sheepdog

Protecting America from excessive stool loitering
Dec 1, 2015
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Especially true for this fight given that Max knocked Volk down once in round 1 and once in round 2. The knockdowns were definitely not enough to score any of the rounds 10-8 (any argument to the contrary is ridiculous), but people in one of the WhatsApp groups I'm in were saying that Alex needed a finish to win the fight before the start of round 3 lol. They clearly have no idea how the 10-point must system works.

I scored round 4 for Max but I don't think that giving it to Volkanovski constitutes a robbery. Looking at the fight in its entirety, Max definitely landed the best strikes. But that's not how fights are scored.
I just rewatched round 4 then. There's really nothing in it. I have no strong opinion either way and arguably 10-10 is justified.
 

kneeblock

Drapetomaniac
Apr 18, 2015
12,435
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I think this fight is a perfect case study into how much biased commentary influences perceptions of fights. Because it's not just that the commentary seemed to sway almost the entire fanbase into calling 'robbery', but that it got people to be so specifically wrong.

The narrarive now is that 'Max won the first 3 rounds, Volkanovski won 4 and 5'. And what is so bizarre about this is that round 3 wasn't particularly close but round 4 was.

Here's a good breakdown of round 3 from some youtuber who initially scored the fight for Max. He points out correctly that Volk landed the bigger strikes in the round and clearly deserved to win it.


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z3pl6B3Srnc


If Max won this fight, it's because he won rounds 1, 2 and 4. He didn't win round 3. That so many people gave him a round that he clearly didn't win shows how much they are just repeating what Bisping said.
Agreed. I missed one and 2 and got on the stream for round 3 so only watched those last 3 rounds. Round 4 was close, but I had Volk up for the whole last 3 rounds of the fight.
 

BenAskrensStrikingcoach

Formerly formulating formally
Jan 30, 2015
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I just don't agree that round 3 was that close. If you look at the breakdown video I posted, it's even generous to Max despite concluding that he lost, crediting him with a blocked flying knee and a blocked high kick. Volk landed 6-7 really good clean punches that visibly snapped Max's head back. Max landed one such punch. It wasn't a dominant round, but it was a clear round.

With the benefit of hindsight and replays, no person with any credibility should be scoring that round for Max.
I haven't watched it twice but I had Volk winning it at first until I saw the numbers, then I wasn't sure of myself, I was fairly mashed as well.

I will watch it again but by the sounds of things I will be going with my first thought. I had Max up 3/2 but it never felt like a robbery to me, 4th was definitely close and you're right, its the swing round.
 
M

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I just rewatched round 4 then. There's really nothing in it. I have no strong opinion either way and arguably 10-10 is justified.
I maintain my fight night argument that Max has no one to blame for this loss but himself. Maybe his corner for not being more honest with him.

He had no reason to think that he had the fight in the bag regardless of how he performed in round 5. Yes he clearly won rounds 1 and 2 but I don't know how he or his corner could be 100% convinced that he won round 3 or round 4.

He should've approached round 5 as if he needed that round to win the fight. He didn't.
 

Sheepdog

Protecting America from excessive stool loitering
Dec 1, 2015
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I maintain my fight night argument that Max has no one to blame for this loss but himself. Maybe his corner for not being more honest with him.

He had no reason to think that he had the fight in the bag regardless of how he performed in round 5. Yes he clearly won rounds 1 and 2 but I don't know how he or his corner could be 100% convinced that he won round 3 or round 4.

He should've approached round 5 as if he needed that round to win the fight. He didn't.
Agreed. I do think any time a fighter has clearly lost round 5 of a championship fight, it needs to factor in to how people assess the first 4 rounds too - not in terms of how you score each round, but in how you judge each fighter's overall performance.

We are always talking out of our ass when we claim with credulity that we can really know how much cumulative damage a guy sustains over a course of a fight.

If the leg kicks did nothing, why did you slow down and lose the last round? And if you gassed does that not mean some of your early success was the result of you going harder than your opponent and failing to conserve your energy as well?

It's hard to feel sorry for say Reyes, Hendricks or Holloway, who whatever the varying merits of their 10-9 arguments in their famous contentious fights, when they fell short at the final hurdle and allowed their opponents to have their best moments right at the end. You shouldn't want the most decisive round you lose to be the last one.
 

Sheepdog

Protecting America from excessive stool loitering
Dec 1, 2015
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Interesting that Big John doesn't mention that David Lethaby scored round 5 for Max, which now that the dust has settled, everyone sensible agrees was the worst round score of the fight. But yes, he is right that the Andrade-Rose score is fucked up.

BJM is often emotional and moronic with his assessments of score cards. He thought Max could have been given the first fight, which shows you how much credibility he has. He has an emotional investment in Max for whatever reason.
 

Silverball

Member
Feb 24, 2015
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Max dropped him in each of the first 2 rounds, clearly winning those rounds, and did so while dictating the fight, i.e. octagon control. Under the 10 point must system in boxing, those are 10-8 rounds and we’re not even having this discussion, but that’s neither here nor there. For rounds 3 and 4, Max continued to be the aggressor, dictating the fight, which lead to a couple of desperate, ineffective takedown attempts from Volkanovski in round 4. Even round 5, the only consensus winning round for the champ, wasn’t as clear cut as rounds 1& 2 were for Holloway. Anyone disputing whether Max was robbed or not is either a UFC fan boy, a member of Volkanovski’s team, or very bored at the moment (understandable given the state of things).
 

Sheepdog

Protecting America from excessive stool loitering
Dec 1, 2015
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Max dropped him in each of the first 2 rounds, clearly winning those rounds, and did so while dictating the fight, i.e. octagon control. Under the 10 point must system in boxing, those are 10-8 rounds and we’re not even having this discussion, but that’s neither here nor there. For rounds 3 and 4, Max continued to be the aggressor, dictating the fight, which lead to a couple of desperate, ineffective takedown attempts from Volkanovski in round 4. Even round 5, the only consensus winning round for the champ, wasn’t as clear cut as rounds 1& 2 were for Holloway. Anyone disputing whether Max was robbed or not is either a UFC fan boy, a member of Volkanovski’s team, or very bored at the moment (understandable given the state of things).
That you feel the need to emphasize aggression, octagon control and 'dictating the fight' for why you think Max won reveals that you don't know how to score fights.
 

ender852

Posting Machine
Jan 31, 2015
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When the UFC's decides to display total strikes landed or significant strikes landed, or the ufc juking which stat to show you to influence your opinions