General What do you guys think about parents that accidentally leave their kids in hot cars???

[Hauler]

So people could forget small children playing near a pool? I just have a hard time imagining it. I always knew whether I had my boy in the back or not. It seems common sense to me. That is what being a parent really means. And the responsibility for the child's life, that comes with it. And so should then the consequences.

I hear ya. But it happens.

Quite honestly, I doubt the parent who does it even cares about the consequences. Most would probably sign their own death warrant right there and take a bullet to the back of the head to end their suffering. I can't imagine the pain of being solely responsible for causing the death of a child that was in your care.

 

[Splinty]

I hear ya. But it happens.

Quite honestly, I doubt the parent who does it even cares about the consequences. Most would probably sign their own death warrant right there and take a bullet to the back of the head to end their suffering. I can't imagine the pain of being solely responsible for causing the death of a child that was in your care.

The lady in the original post tried to get pregnant for 15 years and then got pregnant after being told there was no chance. I can't imagine having that level of happiness and then accidentally killing your baby when you were just trying to be a good wife and do one of your husband's usual tasks.
Everything about it is just such a painful tragedy to read.

She's apparently and a psychotic break when they brought her to the police station begging for help pulling her hair out and begging to be allowed to kill herself.

 

[silentsinger]

do you feel the same about parents that co-sleep and kill their children? Use crib bumpers or too many blankets (a common cause of SIDS)?
Those are done all the time with terrible outcomes. The data of clearly shows that you shouldn't, and it is counseled to all new mothers and it pediatrician visits everywhere I've ever worked. Parents still do those things after being told. And those parents do not typically face charges when it goes wrong.

A negligent parent?

Studies also show the ability for anybody to have a habituation that causes lapses in memory as described by others in this thread. In fact the data shows that false memories, blending days of previous habituation, convince the parent that the other has dropped a child at daycare. That's what happened for hundreds or thousands of other drives to work.There is nothing to forget. The brain betrayed you. Is it negligence if it's something that we all could do in our normal day-to-day activities? I say no.

You obviously made your mind up about which way you were leaning before this discussion and you know I’m not medically knowledgeable.

I cannot, in good faith abide leaving a child in a car to perish and expect anything other than anguish and guilt for the rest of my life. I don’t care what stats are thrown at me. Whoever I’m in love with or responsible for, they’re my top priority and at the forefront of my mind. That’s it. End of.
Earning money or getting your Starbucks in every morning, it doesn’t matter. Once you’re responsible for a young human being you’re responsible.

 

[silentsinger]

Fuck, I forgot to add I would expect go to jail for it. Whichever way you twist it it's child negligence.

 

[Splinty]

You obviously made your mind up about which way you were leaning before this discussion and you know I’m not medically knowledgeable.

I cannot, in good faith abide leaving a child in a car to perish and expect anything other than anguish and guilt for the rest of my life. I don’t care what stats are thrown at me. Whoever I’m in love with or responsible for, they’re my top priority and at the forefront of my mind. That’s it. End of.
Earning money or getting your Starbucks in every morning, it doesn’t matter. Once you’re responsible for a young human being you’re responsible.

I made my mind up after reading all of the sides. And then reading yet another post and which the comments were quite split.

Nobody is doubting your sincerity or anybody else's about how much they care for their loved ones. I would expect that to any normal person would have terrible anguish and guilt, including the mother of the original post. The question is of criminal prosecution and why it should or shouldn't be used in these specific cases. I've simply pointed out a number of other societal acceptances that are much more clearly negligent, but socially accepted practices that do not result in criminal prosecution.

So people could forget small children playing near a pool? I just have a hard time imagining it. I always knew whether I had my boy in the back or not. It seems common sense to me. That is what being a parent really means. And the responsibility for the child's life, that comes with it. And so should then the consequences.

It's unlikely that somebody would forget a small child by a pool without exceptional circumstances. The car phenomenon has to do with a number of habituating circumstances where driving the car on a particular path and a particular behavior and making certain stops occurs hundreds or thousands of times before some variance in that behavior occurs.

Have you ever driven your car to the totally wrong place? Like you're intending to drive to a friend's house but end up at work or somewhere else? That's not common but it happens to lots of people. And it's the basis for the same mechanism that creates memory blanks in these cases. even the sort of highway hypnosis lulling one to sleep plays into the habituation.

 

[Sex Chicken]

I think we’re talking about two different situations.

To me the purpose of putting someone in jail is to accomplish two things

To punish negligent behaviour so the person would not do the same thing again.

To deter other people from committing the same act.

If a kid dies in a car because their dad ran into Home Depot to do a couple of quick errands. Then of course the person should go to jail.

The person made a negligent decision that cost a child his life and deserves to be punished.

It serves as a deterrent by saying “Hey dummies. Leaving your child in a hot car for any amount of time is dangerous, and if you do, you’re going to jail.

But say a parent who never takes theit kid to daycare is on his way out the door and his wife says “hey i’m Not feeling very well could you drop the kid off at daycare. The kid is asleep, the dad is driving and gets a call on his cellphone about a meeting he forgot he had at work and is going to be late for. Now he’s stressed to hell because he’s afraid he might get fired, as he’s consumed with work stress he slips into autopilot and drives to work the same way he does everyday, completely forgetting there is a sleeping baby in the back seat, until an hour later when he’s sitting at his desk.

There is was no criminal intent here clearly, and I don’t know if there’s negligence because no negligent decision was made. He didn’t make a decision that he could have altered.

Punishing him serves no purpose as a deterrent because telling people “Hey don’t accidentally do something” doesn’t mean anything.

I also feel like any punishment on top of the horrific guilt and loss the person is experiencing is just cruel and unnecessary.

 

[SongExotic2]

Hey, I left a chocolate bar in my cup holder last week which made a fine mess, so who am I to judge?

Come on people, we're talking about a miniature human being, not a bag of gym clothes or a hat or something. Who would forget a kid in the car? Fuck even Sean Penn in "I Am Sam" had the wherewithal not to do that.

Yes they deserve to be criminally responsible (and I hope they burn in hell).

I left a unopened can of Sprite in my car before, and also a can of diet Pepsi on another occasion and they blew up, contrary to what they said on myth busters about it being a myth. I saved one of the cans for a couple years then lost it. It looked really cool

 

[Splinty]

I think the standard of what's negligent will change with simple technology, the way that backup cameras did for SUVs.

Does anybody remember the rash of backover child killings going on in the 90s and 2000's? Dateline and everybody were running specials on these all the time. Vehicles were getting bigger and taller and blind spots were getting bigger. Parent gets in the car, looks in the mirrors, looks to the back window, put the car in reverse, and runs right over the kid.

We are much more used to these blind spots now and would likely check behind the car and know that you need a bigger space for the SUV that just replaced your sedan. The government has mandated increasingly high side Sills that create even higher blind spots in regular cars and trucks, and with that came rear view cameras.
Now if your back over your child, the standard is higher that you didn't check the camera along with the mirror and window.

Likewise some new cars have back seat pressure monitors that sense when an item, such as a child seat is there. If these become more common, we would hold a parent obviously negligent when the car alerted to look in the back seat and the parent chose not to.

 

[Yossarian]

Have you ever driven your car to the totally wrong place? Like you're intending to drive to a friend's house but end up at work or somewhere else?

Sure. But again, never forgot where I left my child. I see very poor analogies used to defend this neglect.

 

[silentsinger]

I made my mind up after reading all of the sides. And then reading yet another post and which the comments were quite split.

Nobody is doubting your sincerity or anybody else's about how much they care for their loved ones. I would expect that to any normal person would have terrible anguish and guilt, including the mother of the original post. The question is of criminal prosecution and why it should or shouldn't be used in these specific cases. I've simply pointed out a number of other societal acceptances that are much more clearly negligent, but socially accepted practices that do not result in criminal prosecution.



It's unlikely that somebody would forget a small child by a pool without exceptional circumstances. The car phenomenon has to do with a number of habituating circumstances where driving the car on a particular path and a particular behavior and making certain stops occurs hundreds or thousands of times before some variance in that behavior occurs.

Have you ever driven your car to the totally wrong place? Like you're intending to drive to a friend's house but end up at work or somewhere else? That's not common but it happens to lots of people. And it's the basis for the same mechanism that creates memory blanks in these cases. even the sort of highway hypnosis lulling one to sleep plays into the habituation.

Probably 23 years or so ago now I had my ex's toddler niece on my shoulders just joking around on a family day out. Very unintentionally obviously I misjudged a doorway and she cracked her head on the door frame. Nothing drastic, I just brought her down did the old bit of "spit" and rub and she was fine. Had that gone the wrong way and it had been worse like (don't want to say it) I'd killed her, I would expect to be held accountable for it. And if I had to go to jail for manslaughter then so be it.

 

[Splinty]

Probably 23 years or so ago now I had my ex's toddler niece on my shoulders just joking around on a family day out. Very unintentionally obviously I misjudged a doorway and she cracked her head on the door frame. Nothing drastic, I just brought her down did the old bit of "spit" and rub and she was fine. Had that gone the wrong way and it had been worse like (don't want to say it) I'd killed her, I would expect to be held accountable for it. And if I had to go to jail for manslaughter then so be it.

But why would be guilty of a crime? what would we as a society hope such criminal prosecution would alter in that scenario?
Seems you were just being a great parent like every other giving piggyback rides

 

[Yossarian]

I can't imagine the pain of being solely responsible for causing the death of a child that was in your care.

Fortunately, knowing whether you have a child in your car is fairly easy.

 

[Yossarian]

When I'm in charge of whoever's children whether it be for 10 minutes or a whole day I don't take my eyes off of them when they're that young.
It's a disgrace that this happens.

It is a disgrace. As parents we are not perfect, kid picks up scissors you forgot to pick up, kid burns their hand on the grill outside, etc, etc. These are instances that happen fairly often. It is because a little person is a curious being, they wander and wander. As devoted parents we of course watch them like a hawk.

It is only when we have more important stuff on our minds, more important stuff than our children that we may end up forgetting them. If your child is the most important thing to you, you will not EVER forget them in the car, ever. If you have other priorities, yes, you may find yourself in a situation that your neglect may cause harm to someone who depends on you with their life.

 

[Yossarian]

But why would be guilty of a crime? what would we as a society hope such criminal prosecution would alter in that scenario?
Seems you were just being a great parent like every other giving piggyback rides

I agree with you here. It is purely accidental.

But forgetting your child is NOT accidental. It is pure neglect. A child under the age of 5 depends on you with their lives. Forgetting about such a little person is in my mind criminal. Child neglect is just like child abuse to me, and should be punishable by law.

 

[Splinty]

Sure. But again, never forgot where I left my child. I see very poor analogies used to defend this neglect.

Why'd you drive the wrong place when you tried to drive the right place? Your brain betrayed you due to habituation.

We all agree a parent intentionally leaving a child in a car is a problem. The question is, if your brain blanks out that the child is there, what negligence was there? What culpability is there if your brain at work blanked out the needed daycare stop until some trigger reminded you "oh shit".
Same as the only reason you realized you did the wrong drive was the arrival at the wrong destination.

Fortunately, knowing whether you have a child in your car is fairly easy.

It's simple to drive to your friend's house. Why on Earth did you drive the wrong way to the exact wrong destination on a weekend when your work was closed? would you trust that somebody has made the same mistake even when they need to urgently get somewhere that is more important than your friend's house? I think so.

I'm obviously not making a parallel in severity of outcome. I'm pointing to a common occurrence that you might be able to relate to habituation causing you to not do the exact thing you intended to do the moment you walked out your door. The thing you intended to do even as you got into your car. And 2 minutes later you've completely forgotten that you're on your way to your friend's house. Not because you don't care, but because a lot of moving pieces are aligned against you that occasionally Stack Up the wrong way. You don't drive the wrong way accidentally all the time. just on the right circumstances.

Police officers used to be trained to pick up their brass at shooting ranges. This activity was stopped because it created muscle memory and, even in a life-and-death shootout, police found themselves reaching for brass on the ground. Even in life and death, habituation takes over.

Realizing that the the subconscious habituation doesn't place priority on anything other than habit and repetitiveness, I am pointing out a daily occurrence of the science described. It's not an analogy, but just an attempt at foundational understanding that there might be something here more than a laxidasical approach to childcare.

If I can't convince you that the mother really cares and really tried, then negligence is a good word. But if the mother is doing the same thing as the rest of us, and there is a psychological reason that our brains do these dumb things, then it's just a terrible accident for a caring mother.

 

[Yossarian]

The question is, if your brain blanks out that the child is there, what negligence was there?

It doesn't. Just how my brain doesn't forget I have two hands. Forgetting where you parked your car and forgetting your child/pet in a car for an extended time are two entirely different things. The one instance may be a trick of the mind, while the latter is pure apathy, having the wrong priorities in life, like heroin junkies that OD while their childs sits in the back. Now that is a good excuse. A junkie forgets about their child.

It's not an analogy, but just an attempt at foundational understanding that there might be something here more than a laxidasical approach to childcare.

I just cannot imagine that. Childcare, parental instincts is in our DNA, it is second nature. Driving to work or to a friend is a learned behavior. Even when taking in a small kitten in the house, priorities will change according to wahts best for the little critter. So maybe lack of parental instincts? We could both agree maybe that forgetting your child is the opposite of care?

 

[silentsinger]

But why would be guilty of a crime? what would we as a society hope such criminal prosecution would alter in that scenario?
Seems you were just being a great parent like every other giving piggyback rides

I really don't want to think about me killing my ex's niece but if a life ends, regardless of what effect it has on society, you, as a human being have been wreckless in your judgement. You have ended a life.
Child negligence isn't just a "oops, I forgot my phone". You have a serious responsibility once they're put in your care whether you're a parent or not. They can't think for themselves, they depend on us as adults.
I understand people have busy lives but leaving a child in a car for any time in a fucking sauna scenario...you probably deserve to go to jail for sheer stupidity as well as everything else that comes with it.

 

[Robbie Hart]

It doesn't. Just how my brain doesn't forget I have two hands. Forgetting where you parked your car and forgetting your child/pet in a car for an extended time are two entirely different things. The one instance may be a trick of the mind, while the latter is pure apathy, having the wrong priorities in life, like heroin junkies that OD while their childs sits in the back. Now that is a good excuse. A junkie forgets about their child.


I just cannot imagine that. Childcare, parental instincts is in our DNA, it is second nature. Driving to work or to a friend is a learned behavior. Even when taking in a small kitten in the house, priorities will change according to wahts best for the little critter. So maybe lack of parental instincts? We could both agree maybe that forgetting your child is the opposite of care?

He’s trolling

 

[Robbie Hart]

Why'd you drive the wrong place when you tried to drive the right place? Your brain betrayed you due to habituation.

We all agree a parent intentionally leaving a child in a car is a problem. The question is, if your brain blanks out that the child is there, what negligence was there? What culpability is there if your brain at work blanked out the needed daycare stop until some trigger reminded you "oh shit".
Same as the only reason you realized you did the wrong drive was the arrival at the wrong destination.



It's simple to drive to your friend's house. Why on Earth did you drive the wrong way to the exact wrong destination on a weekend when your work was closed? would you trust that somebody has made the same mistake even when they need to urgently get somewhere that is more important than your friend's house? I think so.

I'm obviously not making a parallel in severity of outcome. I'm pointing to a common occurrence that you might be able to relate to habituation causing you to not do the exact thing you intended to do the moment you walked out your door. The thing you intended to do even as you got into your car. And 2 minutes later you've completely forgotten that you're on your way to your friend's house. Not because you don't care, but because a lot of moving pieces are aligned against you that occasionally Stack Up the wrong way. You don't drive the wrong way accidentally all the time. just on the right circumstances.

Police officers used to be trained to pick up their brass at shooting ranges. This activity was stopped because it created muscle memory and, even in a life-and-death shootout, police found themselves reaching for brass on the ground. Even in life and death, habituation takes over.

Realizing that the the subconscious habituation doesn't place priority on anything other than habit and repetitiveness, I am pointing out a daily occurrence of the science described. It's not an analogy, but just an attempt at foundational understanding that there might be something here more than a laxidasical approach to childcare.

If I can't convince you that the mother really cares and really tried, then negligence is a good word. But if the mother is doing the same thing as the rest of us, and there is a psychological reason that our brains do these dumb things, then it's just a terrible accident for a caring mother.

Not possible to forget a kid is in the car unless you are galactically stupid or mentally incapacitated.....

 

[SongExotic2]

I really don't want to think about me killing my ex's niece but if a life ends, regardless of what effect it has on society, you, as a human being have been wreckless in your judgement. You have ended a life.
Child negligence isn't just a "oops, I forgot my phone". You have a serious responsibility once they're put in your care whether you're a parent or not. They can't think for themselves, they depend on us as adults.
I understand people have busy lives but leaving a child in a car for any time in a fucking sauna scenario...you probably deserve to go to jail for sheer stupidity as well as everything else that comes with it.

I thought about this and I look at it two ways. And it's very stupid. So here goes.

If I left my kid in a car and they died I would he overcome with guilt for the rest of my life, I'd never get over it and jail wouldn't mean shit. I'd be let out and still feel the same way. Ultimately I'd made a massive error that ended one life and ruined mine. It doesn't fix anything tho.


However,

If I had left my child in the care of a nanny or something (you used to babysit Hitler didn't you?) I would forever blame the person who I had trusted with the care of the child. Thier mistake led to the death.

And then I flip back on the first scenario and wonder. If I I did it then yes the death is my fault. But am I any less punishable than the nanny would be? Because everyone can fuck up.

 

[silentsinger]

I could run a toddler down. I would feel eternally guilty for it. Jail? Yes.

 

[silentsinger]

I thought about this and I look at it two ways. And it's very stupid. So here goes.

If I left my kid in a car and they died I would he overcome with guilt for the rest of my life, I'd never get over it and jail wouldn't mean shit. I'd be let out and still feel the same way. Ultimately I'd made a massive error that ended one life and ruined mine. It doesn't fix anything tho.


However,

If I had left my child in the care of a nanny or something (you used to babysit Hitler didn't you?) I would forever blame the person who I had trusted with the care of the child. Thier mistake led to the death.

And then I flip back on the first scenario and wonder. If I I did it then yes the death is my fault. But am I any less punishable than the nanny would be? Because everyone can fuck up.

Getting ahead of myself now thinking about old people's homes neglect with the horrible people who abuse them which has had me in floods.
Everyone can fuck up. Not like this though.
And I would never get over it either, I would honestly want to die, and I mean that. You are responsible for a life though, I'm not meaning life in jail but a manslaughter charge has to happen.
If anything, and I'm not going nuts about this, it will hopefully stop stupid fucking fuckers leaving their kids and pets in fucking boiling hot cars to die if more of them go to jail and it's all over the press.
Fucking idiots.

 

[SongExotic2]

Getting ahead of myself now thinking about old people's homes neglect with the horrible people who abuse them which has had me in floods.
Everyone can fuck up. Not like this though.
And I would never get over it either, I would honestly want to die, and I mean that. You are responsible for a life though, I'm not meaning life in jail but a manslaughter charge has to happen.
I anything, and I'm not going nuts about this, it will hopefully stop stupid fucking fuckers leaving their kids and pets in fucking boiling hot cars to die if more of them go to jail and it's all over the press.
Fucking idiots.

Here's where I'm at

If it we're me then the guilt would be enough. No punishment wouldean shot compared to it.

If it was someone else with my child. I'd never forgive them.

Despite my last comment


There is nothing you can do to erase human error completely. Mistakes are always gonna happen. I think I view it as a tragedy rather than a punishable act

 

[silentsinger]

Here's where I'm at

If it we're me then the guilt would be enough. No punishment wouldean shot compared to it.

If it was someone else with my child. I'd never forgive them.

Despite my last comment


There is nothing you can do to erase human error completely. Mistakes are always gonna happen. I think I view it as a tragedy rather than a punishable act

I know I should have been born Catholic rather than Christian. I would never forgive myself but the penance of going to jail for being a fuck up and making my child die might help a bit. I'm not taking that lightly, I just would need the punishment as a way of dealing with it. Fuck, now that sounds selfish.

 

[SensoriaUtopia]

Yeah, but not in the car bitch, because that is common sense.

Tough words from your keyboard you pussy