Society What is a conspiracy theory you 100% agree with?

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Hauler

It takes twice as long to build bridges you burn.
Feb 3, 2016
34,426
46,063
Manson already had as many drugs as he could take, and he paid for nothing. If he wanted something, the girls would go out and steal, strip or turn tricks until they could get it for him.

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Read
The
Book

If you want to dismiss everything it uncovers, go for it. But you have to read it first. At minimum, it's compelling. If 100% accurate - it's terrifying.

The one thing that was uncovered - the story of the murders told at the trial by Bugliosi was complete bullshit. A total fabrication.
 

John Lee Pettimore

Further south than you
May 18, 2021
3,550
3,451
So then you know that Vincent Bugliosi lied about a bunch of things then, right? And you also know that he omitted a lot of pertinent information, right?
Yep.

Vincent Bugliosi is not the font of all truth and wisdom when it comes to Charles Manson. I never said that he was. I actually would give John Douglas's opinion on Manson more weight, to be honest.

🇳🇿
 

TheFifthScallop

Who am I kidding? I’m a whore.
Amateur Fighter
Nov 15, 2015
3,774
5,027
Yep.

Vincent Bugliosi is not the font of all truth and wisdom when it comes to Charles Manson. I never said that he was. I actually would give John Douglas's opinion on Manson more weight, to be honest.

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If you’re a “True Crime Buff”, how come you don’t want to read Tom O’Neills book? Or are you just resisting because Sound System @Sound System likes it? Just curious.
 

John Lee Pettimore

Further south than you
May 18, 2021
3,550
3,451
If you’re a “True Crime Buff”, how come you don’t want to read Tom O’Neills book? Or are you just resisting because Sound System @Sound System likes it? Just curious.
I may read it. I have a few books on the go and a few more on my list, though.

I'm not going to automatically assume that it is legitimate, just because it's telling a story that goes against the version that THEY want you to hear.

You read Robert Graysmith's books on the Zodiac? They are good yarns. Another guy who was completely obsessed with a case for years and years, and who conducted essentially a parallel investigation. Guess what? Arthur Leigh Allen wasn't the Zodiac.

I tend to go by Ockham's razor. I'm more likely to accept that there was a bunch of drug-fucked teenage hippies out in the desert getting brainwashed by a charismatic cult leader insane psychopath who was 10-15 years older than them, then I am to believe layers upon layers of formless smoke.

There are many theories as to what caused the murders, and the truth is likely to be a mix of all of them. Were they revenge for Terry Melcher not following through on his offer of a record deal for Manson? Were they an attempt by Manson to reassert control of the Family as the much younger, more attractive and athletic Tex Watson grew in power among the women? Were they attempts to start a race war to destabilise society? Attempts to get money to repay a drug debt owed to the Straight Satans, that blew out of control because everyone involved was off their heads on psychedelics? Could be a mix of all of it, or some of it.

But none of you have laid out anything to indicate what the CIA might have wanted out of him. You're telling me to read the book, but you won't even give me any indications that YOU have read it. 👍

🇦🇺
 

TheFifthScallop

Who am I kidding? I’m a whore.
Amateur Fighter
Nov 15, 2015
3,774
5,027
I may read it. I have a few books on the go and a few more on my list, though.

I'm not going to automatically assume that it is legitimate, just because it's telling a story that goes against the version that THEY want you to hear.

You read Robert Graysmith's books on the Zodiac? They are good yarns. Another guy who was completely obsessed with a case for years and years, and who conducted essentially a parallel investigation. Guess what? Arthur Leigh Allen wasn't the Zodiac.

I tend to go by Ockham's razor. I'm more likely to accept that there was a bunch of drug-fucked teenage hippies out in the desert getting brainwashed by a charismatic cult leader insane psychopath who was 10-15 years older than them, then I am to believe layers upon layers of formless smoke.

There are many theories as to what caused the murders, and the truth is likely to be a mix of all of them. Were they revenge for Terry Melcher not following through on his offer of a record deal for Manson? Were they an attempt by Manson to reassert control of the Family as the much younger, more attractive and athletic Tex Watson grew in power among the women? Were they attempts to start a race war to destabilise society? Attempts to get money to repay a drug debt owed to the Straight Satans, that blew out of control because everyone involved was off their heads on psychedelics? Could be a mix of all of it, or some of it.

But none of you have laid out anything to indicate what the CIA might have wanted out of him. You're telling me to read the book, but you won't even give me any indications that YOU have read it. 👍

🇦🇺
I listened to it on audiobook. It seems as though the CIA was using Manson, and others to try and dismiss the hippie/anti war movement. Also do mind control experiments on LSD users.
 

Filthy

Bad. Like Jesse James
Jun 28, 2016
20,351
24,397
SARS-COV2 was a biological research project between the US and China which escaped in Wuhan.
 

John Lee Pettimore

Further south than you
May 18, 2021
3,550
3,451
I listened to it on audiobook. It seems as though the CIA was using Manson, and others to try and dismiss the hippie/anti war movement. Also do mind control experiments on LSD users.
I can accept the mind control experiments. They definitely happened. There's a pretty good case to be made that one of them inadvertently created the Unabomber, I am entirely open to that line of thought.

Infiltrating the Manson Family and orchestrating the 3rd most famous and most scrutinised murders of the 20th Century? (Behind JFK and OJ)? Nah, that's an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. There's no proof here. I mean, you can't tell me anything specific, can you? At least, none of you have so far.

🇦🇺
 

Hauler

It takes twice as long to build bridges you burn.
Feb 3, 2016
34,426
46,063
I can accept the mind control experiments. They definitely happened. There's a pretty good case to be made that one of them inadvertently created the Unabomber, I am entirely open to that line of thought.

Infiltrating the Manson Family and orchestrating the 3rd most famous and most scrutinised murders of the 20th Century? (Behind JFK and OJ)? Nah, that's an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. There's no proof here. I mean, you can't tell me anything specific, can you? At least, none of you have so far.

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If for no other reason, you should read it for the absolute destruction of Bugliosi's timeline. What you think happened didn't happen. That should bother you.
 

John Lee Pettimore

Further south than you
May 18, 2021
3,550
3,451
If for no other reason, you should read it for the absolute destruction of Bugliosi's timeline. What you think happened didn't happen. That should bother you.
What do I think happened?

And why assume that Bugliosi's book is the only thing I've ever read about the case? Ed Sanders was doing the same thing as O'Neill, except half a century ago.

🇳🇿
 

TheFifthScallop

Who am I kidding? I’m a whore.
Amateur Fighter
Nov 15, 2015
3,774
5,027
What do I think happened?

And why assume that Bugliosi's book is the only thing I've ever read about the case? Ed Sanders was doing the same thing as O'Neill, except half a century ago.

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O’Neills book is probably the most thorough book written on the subject.
 

John Lee Pettimore

Further south than you
May 18, 2021
3,550
3,451
O’Neills book is probably the most thorough book written on the subject.
According to you.

He only started researching it a full 30 years after the events. People who were feral 22 year old dropout criminal hippies living out in the desert and gobbling handfuls of acid every day when the events took place, were in their 50s and 60s when O'Neill got to them. That's a problem right there, whether you want to concede it or not. If you want to talk about thoroughness, Sanders lived at Spahn Ranch, was an established and credible figure in the counterculture outside of the murders so he was far more in tune with Manson's type of people than either Bugliosi or O'Neill were, etc etc etc.

Bugliosi spent more time talking with Manson and the rest of the Family members on trial than any of the other authors. He also had better access to primary evidence and related materials.

Sanders was embedded with the remains of the Family after the murders, and was far more in tune with the counterculture than either Bugliosi or O'Neill.

O'Neill was obsessed with the case, and worked on it for decades.

Each of the 3 has advantages and disadvantages. O'Neill isn't automatically the most credible of them just because he tells the most exciting and dramatic story. Rather than being some grand conspiracy, these murders just seem kinda...... squalid, pointless and deluded. As is the case with a lot of mass murders.

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Robbie Hart

All Biden Voters Are Mindless Sheep
Feb 13, 2015
43,150
45,737
Manson worked with the CIA, he was used by them.

Also, interesting how the book showed that the CIA paid to have investigators investigate anyone investigating them for involvement in the JFK assassination and to report back on their findings.

why the hell would you pay someone to investigate what anyone was investigating about you if you weren't invoived?
 

John Lee Pettimore

Further south than you
May 18, 2021
3,550
3,451
Read
The
Book

If you want to dismiss everything it uncovers, go for it. But you have to read it first. At minimum, it's compelling.
"Zodiac" is compelling and the product of a decades-long obsession as well.

But Arthur Leigh Allen wasn't the Zodiac. 👍

🇳🇿
 

Hauler

It takes twice as long to build bridges you burn.
Feb 3, 2016
34,426
46,063
Bugliosi spent more time talking with Manson and the rest of the Family members on trial than any of the other authors
And nearly everything he wrote about was bullshit. Why? Because if he printed the truth he'd basically be perjuring himself.
 

Hauler

It takes twice as long to build bridges you burn.
Feb 3, 2016
34,426
46,063
What do I think happened?

And why assume that Bugliosi's book is the only thing I've ever read about the case? Ed Sanders was doing the same thing as O'Neill, except half a century ago.

🇳🇿
You don't even know what you don't know, bruh.
 

John Lee Pettimore

Further south than you
May 18, 2021
3,550
3,451
And nearly everything he wrote about was bullshit. Why? Because if he printed the truth he'd basically be perjuring himself.
Okay, well nearly everything that O'Neill wrote was bullshit. Why? Because he fell down a rabbit hole, became obsessed, lost his journalistic objectivity by his own admission, and fell victim to the sunk cost fallacy.

And we're back at the start. 👍

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