Your opinion on Fedor-Lindland

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Were you okay with the Fedor-Lindland fight result?

  • I’m cool with the result of the fight; the fouls didn’t ruin it for me.

    Votes: 8 33.3%
  • The fouls did alter my satisfaction with the result.

    Votes: 7 29.2%
  • I don't think Fedor committed any fouls.

    Votes: 9 37.5%

  • Total voters
    24

WoodenPupa

Member
Feb 14, 2015
2,920
3,565
We've all seen this one. Here's my recap:

Matt surprises Fedor right after the bell with a punch that opens up a big cut over his eyebrow. They lock up near the ropes and Lindland has great underhooks. Fedor is leaning his arm on the top rope while fighting off the TD. His cut is leaking badly. The ref is telling Fedor to take his arm off the rope, but Fedor either doesn't hear him/understand him or ignores him.

Matt lifts Fedor off his feet several times while Fedor squirms for balance. Matt gets what looks like optimum position for a slam but Fedor twists his body while leaning his arm on the rope and this stops the throw. Fedor's foot touches the ground momentarily and he immediately counters with a beautiful uchi-mata, landing on top as Lindland hits the canvas. From there he overwhelms Matt with a chain of submission attempts, finally hitting an armbar.

This poll really isn't about this fight, per se, but about a larger issue regarding fouls in fights that end up as finishes. But I think this fight is one of the best examples of what I'm talking about. What I'm saying is that sometimes a fight with a finish is still one we're dissatisfied with because the fouls altered the course of the fight in favor of the eventual victor, who wasn't penalized for the fouls.
 

lookoutawhale

Mammal of the Sea
Jan 20, 2015
4,404
7,294
I felt Fedor did touch the ropes illegally and that changed the outcome of the fight. If he didn't grab on, its possible Lindland could have done more with top control.
 

teamquestnorth

Lindland never cheated
Jan 27, 2015
15,427
28,232
The fight should be ruled a NC or even a DQ win for Lindland.

Lindland had a very good top control game and its debatable whether Fedor could have overcame that.

There's an awesome video that Orcus had that vividly shows Fedor repeadetly latching onto the ropes
 
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WoodenPupa

Member
Feb 14, 2015
2,920
3,565
I was fine with the result for a long time, until I really took some time to scrutinize what went down. The thing about ref warnings is, they have to mean something or they're useless. If a fighter ignores the ref's instructions, the ref has to step in, halt the action, take the fighter aside and tell him he'll deduct a point. I'm in favor of returning the fighters to the same position they were in, a la Pride, in these circumstances.

So while Fedor used some beautiful judo and was amazing on the ground, the ref didn't do his job. Fedor's cut was leaking bad, and Matt may have been able to open the cut further had he completed his TD.

I'm not sure how many fights fall under this category though. Maybe more than we think.
 

Zeph

TMMAC Addict
Jan 22, 2015
22,883
29,965
Loaded poll question. I don't believe he grabbed the ropes. There was a gif from a new angle I saw that made it look like his hand was resting on the ropes not grabbing it. A better example would be Faber vs Rivera.
 

WoodenPupa

Member
Feb 14, 2015
2,920
3,565
I'm always suspicious that in cases like this, whether or not you like the fighter determines your feeling about what went down. That was the case for me, for a long time. I say this while allowing for the fact that Fedor's rope-grabbing was probably instinctive. In other words, I don't view him as a cheater. But rules are rules. Enforce them or don't have them.
 

teamquestnorth

Lindland never cheated
Jan 27, 2015
15,427
28,232
OK my mission for the day is to find that video that I watched that showed the rules meeting (ref went over the rules regarding rope grabbing numerous times)

It also has a great view of not only Fedor grabbing onto the ropes, but at one point its actually buried into his armpit!

Brb
 

WoodenPupa

Member
Feb 14, 2015
2,920
3,565
Loaded poll question. I don't believe he grabbed the ropes. There was a gif from a new angle I saw that made it look like his hand was resting on the ropes not grabbing it. A better example would be Faber vs Rivera.
Very good point. I used the wrong verb. On the other hand, "resting" isn't much better IMO, since it implies his arm wasn't helping him avoid the TD. At multiple points he pushes off the rope to help his balance. And besides this, the ref warned Fedor to "let go of the ropes" several times. Do you think the ref was wrong to issue this command?
 

Zeph

TMMAC Addict
Jan 22, 2015
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Very good point. I used the wrong verb. On the other hand, "resting" isn't much better IMO, since it implies his arm wasn't helping him avoid the TD. At multiple points he pushes off the rope to help his balance. And besides this, the ref warned Fedor to "let go of the ropes" several times. Do you think the ref was wrong to issue this command?
I'd have to look at it again to really have an informed discussion. But the last time it came up, someone had a new angle from which it looked like Fedor never gripped the ropes, but had an open hand resting on top of the ropes. That was the opinion I walked away with anyway.
 

WoodenPupa

Member
Feb 14, 2015
2,920
3,565
Loaded poll question.
And not to be anal here, but the question is "Are you okay with the fight result?" There's nothing leading in that IMO. The contentious part is in my fight description, which I included to share my take on the fight as well as to help explain the rationale of the poll.

But if "grab" and "hold" are ill-suited, what is appropriate? Maybe "use", as in "Fedor illegally used the ropes."
 

WoodenPupa

Member
Feb 14, 2015
2,920
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I'd have to look at it again to really have an informed discussion. But the last time it came up, someone had a new angle from which it looked like Fedor never gripped the ropes, but had an open hand resting on top of the ropes. That was the opinion I walked away with anyway.
Right, and I agree insofar as some of the sequence entails resting. Other parts entail leaning, pushing, leveraging, actions of that kind.
 

Zeph

TMMAC Addict
Jan 22, 2015
22,883
29,965
And not to be anal here, but the question is "Are you okay with the fight result?" There's nothing leading in that IMO. The contentious part is in my fight description, which I included to share my take on the fight as well as to help explain the rationale of the poll.

But if "grab" and "hold" are ill-suited, what is appropriate? Maybe "use", as in "Fedor illegally used the ropes."
Sorry, I should have said answers, since there is no option for it not being a foul.
 

WoodenPupa

Member
Feb 14, 2015
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This isn't the video that I was talking about but you can even hear the commentators talking about it who were sitting right there

View: https://youtu.be/wOzkjyhJapI
Thanks for posting the vid.

The critical parts are between 14:00 - 35:00 sec's.

Determining what happened here isn't so simple, I'll admit that. I have my opinion, but Zeph has a point too. Just to play devil's advocate (against my own case, in other words), for much of the sequence Lindland has Fedor shoved up against the ropes pretty hard, and Fedor can hardly avoid contact with the ropes with his arms. The leverage he intermittently gets is excusable for that reason. You can even argue that the ref's warning is (at least initially) inappropriate, as Fedor can hardly be expected to make a concerted effort to bring his arm back over into the ring. Doing so would certainly have meant being taken down.

But there are at least two instances where Fedor *reaches out* to put his hand on the rope to acquire stabilizing leverage. The last time he does it, it indisputably helps him perform the uchi-mata.
 

MMAHAWK

@MMAHAWK21 Coast 2 Coast Combat Hour @COMBATHOUR
Feb 5, 2015
10,211
24,942
I agree, but Fedor was cut and Matt *might* have been able to open the cut further with some GnP had he landed on top, and that might have led to a cut stoppage.
Maybe but remember the fight was in Russia with Putin front row. If a doctor stopped it due to a cut he may never be found again.
 

Wild

TMMAC's Most Handsome Admin
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Dec 31, 2014
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I can see why teamquestnorth @teamquestnorth feels the way he does about the rope grab. I think Fedor did grab the ropes a couple of times, which stopped leverage. But with that said, I don't think it would have mattered if Matt got top position out of that. I still think Fedor would have survived and eventually finished the fight. Its unfortunate we didnt get to find out how it would have played out.
 
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teamquestnorth

Lindland never cheated
Jan 27, 2015
15,427
28,232
All of the videos of the fight have a really bad angle to catch the full extent of the rope grabs. The cameraman is right behind Fedor and he's blocking the view for the most part.

There's other videos out there though. I guess I'm going to have to reach out to Orcus.