Is CTE a Ticking Time Bomb For Martial Arts Gyms?

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ErikMagraken

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Apr 9, 2015
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Original article here - Is CTE a Ticking Time Bomb For Martial Arts Gyms?
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CTE rocked the professional sports world at the highest level with the NFL agreeing to a nearly $1 billion dollar settlement for the ravages of concussions on its players. The litigation focused on allegations of fraud and cover ups when it came to the reality of head trauma in the league. As the science behind CTE evolves there is reason to believe that liability can trickle down to the lower levels of sport as well even absent fraud and deceit. The law of negligence may be sufficient.

Earlier this month a concerning study was published with far reaching implications in the world of collision and combative sports. Researchers were able to demonstrate that repeated exposure to sub-concussive blows was enough to result in CTE. No concussions or knockouts needed.

Why should this be concerning for martial arts and combative sports academies? If hard sparring resulting in routine cumulative subconcussive impacts is a staple in your gym this can potentially lead to liability if students subsequently develop disease.

For the sake of this article I am not discussing professional or even amateur fighters who choose certain training methods to prepare themselves for the rigours of competition. I am discussing hobbyist students who make up the bulk of the profit generating student body in a typical martial arts gym. Combative sports schools largely cater to the general public selling things such as weight loss, confidence, self defense and skill building. Developing a neurodegenerative disease is not in the brochure.

If, through methods taught in a gym, hobbyist students are exposed to repeated head impacts and they develop CTE successful litigation against the gym is not a far fetched idea.

A 2006 British Columbia case went so far at to find that a student injured while following an instructors training can not only succeed in a negligence claim but also that a liability waiver is not effective in such circumstances. The following comments tossing the waiver could easily extend to CTE litigation –

[72] In any event, I find that an injury such as that experienced by Mr. Parker does not fall within the scope of the waiver. In my opinion, Mr. Parker, by engaging in shoot-fighting lessons accepted certain risks of injury but he did not accept the risk of injury at the hands of his instructor whom he trusted not to harm him. It is reasonable for Mr. Ingalls to seek a waiver from accidents occurring in the case of a student injuring himself as a result of falling or doing a move incorrectly, or being injured by another student in the course of an exercise. However, it is not reasonable for Mr. Ingalls to seek to exclude himself from his own negligence where he is conducting a demonstration in which he has complete control over the safety of the student. Mr. Parker was not asked to consent that risk and he did not do so.

If you run a for profit gym catering to hobbyist students it is wise to not only understand the dangers of concussion but the evolving science addressing the dangers of cumulative sub concussive impacts. Failure to do so can not only lead to un-needed harm but also to potentially crippling litigation.
 

ECC170

Monster's 11,ATM 2,Parlay Challenge,Hero GP Champ
Pro Fighter
Jan 23, 2015
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Frat warning but this is real shit


I know at Miletichs if you guys seen the wars in there you'd be in awwe...prime Jens and Spencer Fisher was sickening..I've seen gym wars that make actual fights look like childs play...But ill say this as the sport evolves so does training methods..Going away frm contact to the head does wonders honestly.. it forces you to develop better body punching and saves on the head trauma... I always looked at it like this a fighter has 9 lives aka times you can absorb damage but most fighters use those up in training.. In turn when fighting your chin isn't as solid because your brain has been scrambled..When you get a bunch of alphas in a room varying in weights you can get a gray area where ppl get hurt. .I've seen a UFC 185er getting the best of a former bellator HW but noting that was hurting the hw besides his pride..in turn the HW turned to his natural advantage of power/ size and head kicked the 185er.. the 185er blocked it but when a 275 pound HW kicks you in the head your arm is useless...He knocked the 85er cold and it was something that could've been prevented...Im for smaller guys going with big guys IF it's only for technical purposes and don't turn into a full all out brawl..The big guy needs to see speed and crisp technique coming at him and the smaller guy can also grow by getting use to feeling the strength and power of the big guy if it's done correctly... but when you get a room full of killers the lines become blurred and emotions take over..

In my gym we didn't have a head coach and that hurt us..we all taught one anther but that only goes so far. .We all made it pretty damn far and fought in all the big shows on our talent alone... but it also hurt us in the fact we didn't have a master mind to run our practices... from my little gym in Muncie Indiana we put guys into the ufc, bellator, EliteXC,Kotc,Axs.tv fights, Sengoku,super brawl aka Icon and many other shows... I'm proud of where I came from but I know that we didn't train the smartest or the most efficient...Not to mention we were a miletich affiliate that would travel to Iowa to train....It wasn't til I worked for CBS promoting fights in between my own fights that I realized every major gym is different and similar in certain ways..When I was promoting I got to go team at the best gyms in the area when I was there for an event for example ATT coconut creek on many occasions.. I was there when t wood was getting mauled by 145 mike brown on the ground...its very fascinating to watch a elite athlete that's use to dominating their native sport come over to mma and take their lumps...T wood would get so pissed that this smaller guy could submit him and he couldn't stop it.. then to so him shuck Maia off like a child from where he started is amazing...T

hen imagine going to Tulsa for a fight taking some classes from a guy that's highly touted and very helpful at Mikey Burnetts gym.. only to see him get ragdolled by Boetcsh few moths later aka David Heath..Im glad I've got to travel and see the ins and outs of the game.. but the elephant in the room is CTE and I'm scared to death that I could suffer from it..I notice my memory isn't as keen and I mumble when I talk sometimes... nothing to crazy but who knows the toll hundreds of wrestling matches, over 40 mma fights, abuse I endured as a child, stupid number of street fights and sparring has taken on me...I've never been knocked out cold but have had my bell rung more than I care to count..I'm just glad I've got ppl like y'all that respect and appreciate us fighters..Love y'all for that.
 

Disciplined Galt

Disciplina et Frugalis
First 100
Jan 15, 2015
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Frat warning but this is real shit


I know at Miletichs if you guys seen the wars in there you'd be in awwe...prime Jens and Spencer Fisher was sickening..I've seen gym wars that make actual fights look like childs play...But ill say this as the sport evolves so does training methods..Going away frm contact to the head does wonders honestly.. it forces you to develop better body punching and saves on the head trauma... I always looked at it like this a fighter has 9 lives aka times you can absorb damage but most fighters use those up in training.. In turn when fighting your chin isn't as solid because your brain has been scrambled..When you get a bunch of alphas in a room varying in weights you can get a gray area where ppl get hurt. .I've seen a UFC 185er getting the best of a former bellator HW but noting that was hurting the hw besides his pride..in turn the HW turned to his natural advantage of power/ size and head kicked the 185er.. the 185er blocked it but when a 275 pound HW kicks you in the head your arm is useless...He knocked the 85er cold and it was something that could've been prevented...Im for smaller guys going with big guys IF it's only for technical purposes and don't turn into a full all out brawl..The big guy needs to see speed and crisp technique coming at him and the smaller guy can also grow by getting use to feeling the strength and power of the big guy if it's done correctly... but when you get a room full of killers the lines become blurred and emotions take over..

In my gym we didn't have a head coach and that hurt us..we all taught one anther but that only goes so far. .We all made it pretty damn far and fought in all the big shows on our talent alone... but it also hurt us in the fact we didn't have a master mind to run our practices... from my little gym in Muncie Indiana we put guys into the ufc, bellator, EliteXC,Kotc,Axs.tv fights, Sengoku,super brawl aka Icon and many other shows... I'm proud of where I came from but I know that we didn't train the smartest or the most efficient...Not to mention we were a miletich affiliate that would travel to Iowa to train....It wasn't til I worked for CBS promoting fights in between my own fights that I realized every major gym is different and similar in certain ways..When I was promoting I got to go team at the best gyms in the area when I was there for an event for example ATT coconut creek on many occasions.. I was there when t wood was getting mauled by 145 mike brown on the ground...its very fascinating to watch a elite athlete that's use to dominating their native sport come over to mma and take their lumps...T wood would get so pissed that this smaller guy could submit him and he couldn't stop it.. then to so him shuck Maia off like a child from where he started is amazing...T

hen imagine going to Tulsa for a fight taking some classes from a guy that's highly touted and very helpful at Mikey Burnetts gym.. only to see him get ragdolled by Boetcsh few moths later aka David Heath..Im glad I've got to travel and see the ins and outs of the game.. but the elephant in the room is CTE and I'm scared to death that I could suffer from it..I notice my memory isn't as keen and I mumble when I talk sometimes... nothing to crazy but who knows the toll hundreds of wrestling matches, over 40 mma fights, abuse I endured as a child, stupid number of street fights and sparring has taken on me...I've never been knocked out cold but have had my bell rung more than I care to count..I'm just glad I've got ppl like y'all that respect and appreciate us fighters..Love y'all for that.
My dad never supported me getting into martial arts. Bless up mang.
 

ECC170

Monster's 11,ATM 2,Parlay Challenge,Hero GP Champ
Pro Fighter
Jan 23, 2015
14,538
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My dad never supported me getting into martial arts. Bless up mang.
hard to see your loved one engage in combat at any level. I can see why he wouldn't.. but it goes both ways. . because martial arts can save your life and teach things you could never imagine if you hadn't got into it.
 

Disciplined Galt

Disciplina et Frugalis
First 100
Jan 15, 2015
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hard to see your loved one engage in combat at any level. I can see why he wouldn't.. but it goes both ways. . because martial arts can save your life and teach things you could never imagine if you hadn't got into it.
Thanks for you dude. Off topic is where I get my talk on. Suffice to say my life could've been done or worse. Anyways, I appreciate your input a lot. You fat fuck.
 

SongExotic2

ATM 3 CHAMPION OF THE WORLD. #ASSBLOODS
First 100
Jan 16, 2015
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Thanks for you dude. Off topic is where I get my talk on. Suffice to say my life could've been done or worse. Anyways, I appreciate your input a lot. You fat fuck.
Ah man that cracked me up.

ECC170 @ECC170 good post too
 

ender852

TMMAC Addict
Jan 31, 2015
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It depends, you can teach martial arts to people without sparring, but if your patrons want to compete, then they have to spar. Differing customers
 

Greenbean

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Nov 14, 2015
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It depends, you can teach martial arts to people without sparring, but if your patrons want to compete, then they have to spar. Differing customers
Yup. You don’t want to find out what it’s like getting hit in the head for the first time in the cage. Hard sparring is a necessary evil. That paddy cake shit and only working technique or sparring at 10% won’t cut it. Gotta experience “live” action to hone your rhythm, timing, keep you sharp and honest, see how you react to pressure and a bunch of other things, but one overlooked aspect is conditioning your body to take hits to the legs, shins, arms, etc. when I was active in the sport I could bang my shin against a coffee table ledge and it wouldn’t bother me. Now a days I’d probably cry.
 

ErikMagraken

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Apr 9, 2015
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If a good lawyer can prove negligence the waiver doesn't mean shit. You still owe duty of care to participants, if you break that duty a piece of paper doesn't change the law
Yes, and that's also why I quoted a case where a court threw out a waiver in a martial arts gym lawsuit case. In short the court held if a student is training as per instructor's advice and that advice is negligent then the waiver did not apply. This reasoning very well can apply to a potential CTE lawsuit. Waivers are important. So is insurance. So is smart training not exposing hobbyist students to unnecessary harm.
 

BJJMMA

John Wayne Man in Johnny Depp World
Jun 7, 2016
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I think the upside is knowledge is changing the way fighters approach things. I know on Rogan the other day Askren talked about how he practically quit sparring over the last 2 years of his career. I think he said only like 2-3 hard sparring sessions. That will help over time. Especially when compared to how MMA was trained in the early evolution of the sport.
 

Dashabox

Fi fie fo fum
Dec 7, 2017
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If a good lawyer can prove negligence the waiver doesn't mean shit. You still owe duty of care to participants, if you break that duty a piece of paper doesn't change the law
Spot on. In Canada at least you can not sign away your right to sue. Get people to sign all the waivers you want but they still have the right to expect reasonable safety and due care.
 

ErikMagraken

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Apr 9, 2015
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Spot on. In Canada at least you can not sign away your right to sue. Get people to sign all the waivers you want but they still have the right to expect reasonable safety and due care.
For what its worth you can waive your right to sue in Canada. It is fairly common. That said Courts generally are reluctant to uphold such waivers and interpret them narrowly.
 

Dashabox

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Dec 7, 2017
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For what its worth you can waive your right to sue in Canada. It is fairly common. That said Courts generally are reluctant to uphold such waivers and interpret them narrowly.
Well that may depend on the situation. In a Tort, everything is based on the balance of probabilities in a given situation and what a reasonable person would consider more probable, according to both sides of the story.

If a professional fighter with many fights under his belt gets an untrained person to sign a waiver in a gym in order to fight in the gym and then beats the living shit out of him, causing some sort of long term damage the question may be: Was it reasonable for the professional fighter to fight an untrained person? Was it reasonable for the untrained fighter to expect the trained fighter to hold back given the circumstances? Did the trained fighter go too hard? Etc. Etc.

That is without getting into the capacity of the signee or the circumstances in which the waiver was signed as well as the event the waiver is attempting to exclude. Which are all mitigating factors which the court will interpret.

I admit I was using a bit of legal sleight of hand when I said that you can not sign away your right to sue, because you can always sue, irregardless of the circumstances but your civil case can be dead in the water if there is a legally enforceable waiver to which you signed and that signing was free of duress etc. I will say though, that depending on the circumstances, you can have someone sign 100 waivers and still get sued, you still owe a level of care to the other party, but again this depends on what the waiver was trying to exclude and what the actual incident was.

However, for the fighters out there you should keep in mind that having someone sign a waiver doesn't necessarily mean you are free of all liability, the signee still has a reasonable expectation of privacy and safety.
 

Dashabox

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Dec 7, 2017
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For what its worth you can waive your right to sue in Canada. It is fairly common. That said Courts generally are reluctant to uphold such waivers and interpret them narrowly.
Civil law, like all laws are convoluted and intertwined. The easy reply to this is that I am both right and wrong in my assertion and you are both right and wrong in you rebuttal. It really all depends on the specific circumstances surrounding and leading up to the incident for which a Tort has been filed.
 

ErikMagraken

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Apr 9, 2015
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Civil law, like all laws are convoluted and intertwined. The easy reply to this is that I am both right and wrong in my assertion and you are both right and wrong in you rebuttal. It really all depends on the specific circumstances surrounding and leading up to the incident for which a Tort has been filed.
I don't see how I am wrong in my reply. You can waive your right to sue in Canada. Courts construe waivers narrowly. There are certainly many cases where courts find waivers are not applicable to the circumstances of the suit or not enforceable based on circumstances surrounding signing. But as a general principle it is possible to contract away your right to sue. FWIW I'm a tort lawyer.
 

Dashabox

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I don't see how I am wrong in my reply. You can waive your right to sue in Canada. Courts construe waivers narrowly. There are certainly many cases where courts find waivers are not applicable to the circumstances of the suit or not enforceable based on circumstances surrounding signing. But as a general principle it is possible to contract away your right to sue. FWIW I'm a tort lawyer.
That was my way of saying that you can sign away your right to sue under certain circumstances and that you can still be sued, even when you have someone sign a waiver depending on the circumstances without getting too deeply into it. I didn't say you wrong in any absolute terms. Also, like I said, I was using a bit of a semantics trick earlier.
 

Dashabox

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Dec 7, 2017
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I don't see how I am wrong in my reply. You can waive your right to sue in Canada. Courts construe waivers narrowly. There are certainly many cases where courts find waivers are not applicable to the circumstances of the suit or not enforceable based on circumstances surrounding signing. But as a general principle it is possible to contract away your right to sue. FWIW I'm a tort lawyer.
Figures the one guy I get into a discussion about Tort Law turns out to be a Tort Lawyer LOL. FML.
 

Dashabox

Fi fie fo fum
Dec 7, 2017
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Back to the question at hand, I do believe that we will sadly see a lot of cases of CTE in the near future. Like that new study suggested, sub-concussive blows may lead to CTE and not just knock-out blows. This may suggest that certain forms of training may do more damage than the actual fights. You hear of fighters putting in 30 rounds or more easily in prep for a fight, that is a lot of sub-concussive damage.

It will be interesting if we see a large scale civil suit in the future, to which maybe ErikMagraken @ErikMagraken can weigh in on the possible legal ramifications down the road.