Austin Arnett is proof of how weak WME is

[SensoriaUtopia]

The UFC is and has been already severely watered down. WME has the marketing ability of a musk rat, no new ideas in the year plus they took this ship over. We already see guys in their prime leaving like Bader and Davis. Now even guys in their prime who are exciting fighters are leaving due to shit contract offers by WME, like Gegard, Rory, Lorenz, Tumenov, Krylov, I can keep going and going. So the talent is obviously weaker than recent years. They then had the contender series over the summer, the idea with that would be that they would have a 5 fight card, with 10 fighters, 1 guy would get a contract offer with the UFC if he won his fight, if their where multiple exciting fights maybe 2 guys who won would get an offer. Well now it's gotten to the point that they are bringing in guys who did not even win on the contender. Austin Arnett lost his fight against Brad Davis. I was far from impressed with even Davis who won, these are LFA level guys at best. You saw how low level Brad Davis was when he lost to Kyle Bochniak and Bochniak is like at the very bottome of what UFC level is. So now they give a contract to the guy who could not even beat Brad Davis on the contender, Austin Arnett. I looked at his record, thinking maybe he won 3 fights since then, nope, that was his last fight.

Look at the result, Arnett was stopped by strikes against another guy who I am not sure is UFC level. So yeah, let's like the Gegards and Kyrlov's go because WME is cheap and bring on the Austin Arnetts , WTF.

WME is feckless and foolish.

 

[Lukewarm Carl]

I'm not arguing anything other than one point you made.

Krylov wanted to leave and go fight in Russia to be close to home and to get more experience. He's said all along that it was too much, too soon, and wants to make some money at home and then come back when he's more mature.


Otherwise, I have no clue what you're talking about because I rarely followed the Contenders that closely.

Gegard was going to leave unless they gave him truck loads of money and that wasn't going to happen.

I would have liked to have seen them keep Larkin. Davis and Bader were basically cut because of style. If they didn't have to pay either very much they would have kept them but weren't sad to see them go.

Rory is the only one that is upsetting to me. He's easily one of the top 5 guys in the world and is generally really exciting. From a business standpoint the only risk with him is that he's already been in some brawls and has issues with his nose now so he may have injury issues going forward. If not for that, you pay that man his money.

 

[SensoriaUtopia]

I'm not arguing anything other than one point you made.

Krylov wanted to leave and go fight in Russia to be close to home and to get more experience. He's said all along that it was too much, too soon, and wants to make some money at home and then come back when he's more mature.


Otherwise, I have no clue what you're talking about because I rarely followed the Contenders that closely.

Gegard was going to leave unless they gave him truck loads of money and that wasn't going to happen.

I would have liked to have seen them keep Larkin. Davis and Bader were basically cut because of style. If they didn't have to pay either very much they would have kept them but weren't sad to see them go.

Rory is the only one that is upsetting to me. He's easily one of the top 5 guys in the world and is generally really exciting. From a business standpoint the only risk with him is that he's already been in some brawls and has issues with his nose now so he may have injury issues going forward. If not for that, you pay that man his money.

LOL Larkin cut because of style? WTF, Larkin is an exciting striker, that is the style you want. Gegard was lowballed, he said it in interviews and so did his manager, respectfully what on earth are you talking about?

They are paying Sage 60K just to show. Justin Gaethje deservedly came in at 100K show, 100K win bonus. You are not at all telling the truth saying Gegard wantd truckloads, and he deserves truckloads, Gegard wanted a fair raise and would have stayed in the ufc if WME where not cheap pieces of shit with no vision.

Gegard was on a contract of 80K show 40 win bonus, while Gathje came in at 100K show 100 win bonus for example. Gaeithje was a former WSOF champ. Gegard has been a kickboxing champ, Dream MW champ, Strikeforce LHW champ, wins over heavies like Mark Hunt etc....he goes and finishes his contract with 5 wins, last 4 by finish by strikes and they offer him the exact sme terms on their first offer.


Step back and think about that. Gegard has bigger wins and more pedigree than Gaeithje who I am using as a reference. As a fan you should have a probme with this. Gegard should habe been getting an offer of like 150K show, 80 win bonus from WME at the very least.

Instead they said "hey even though you outperfmed your contract come and take the same shitty contract again"

Are you kidding LOL Now in Bellator he is at 200K maybe 250 K flat ratre, plsu better sponsors and better terms.

WME is a joke, Kyrlovs would have sitgned if the yoffer was better, Larkin is a striker yet you say they cut him because of style, that makes no sense at all ,not even close to sense dude.

Tumenov is an exciting striker in his own right, even Bader and Davis who are nto that exciting you still have to keep those guys cause you have no depth at lhw.

But instead we get Austin Arnett in the ufc, fuck that yo.

 

[Lukewarm Carl]

LOL Larkin cut because of style? WTF, Larkin is an exciting striker, that is the style you want. Gegard was lowballed, he said it in interviews and so did his manager, respectfully what on earth are you talking about?

They are paying Sage 60K just to show. Justin Gaethje deservedly came in at 100K show, 100K win bonus. You are not at all telling the truth saying Gegard wantd truckloads, and he deserves truckloads, Gegard wanted a fair raise and would have stayed in the ufc if WME where not cheap pieces of shit with no vision.

Gegard was on a contract of 80K show 40 win bonus, while Gathje came in at 100K show 100 win bonus for example. Gaeithje was a former WSOF champ. Gegard has been a kickboxing champ, Dream MW champ, Strikeforce LHW champ, wins over heavies like Mark Hunt etc....he goes and finishes his contract with 5 wins, last 4 by finish by strikes and they offer him the exact sme terms on their first offer.


Step back and think about that. Gegard has bigger wins and more pedigree than Gaeithje who I am using as a reference. As a fan you should have a probme with this. Gegard should habe been getting an offer of like 150K show, 80 win bonus from WME at the very least.

Instead they said "hey even though you outperfmed your contract come and take the same shitty contract again"

Are you kidding LOL Now in Bellator he is at 200K maybe 250 K flat ratre, plsu better sponsors and better terms.

WME is a joke, Kyrlovs would have sitgned if the yoffer was better, Larkin is a striker yet you say they cut him because of style, that makes no sense at all ,not even close to sense dude.

Tumenov is an exciting striker in his own right, even Bader and Davis who are nto that exciting you still have to keep those guys cause you have no depth at lhw.

But instead we get Austin Arnett in the ufc, fuck that yo.

That was a period after Larkin. Not a comma. Now I'll start reading again since your first sentence was already wrong.

 

[SensoriaUtopia]

Lame, this is not grammar class, you can clearly see my point. So since you can't refute me you take the grammer route. WME is a joke, you wan't to lie in bed with those guys, that's on you.

By the way, get used to commas and periods being wherever the fuck I want them to be, I am not at work sending an email to one of our customers, I am on the MMA forum.

Fuck WME, you can have your Austin Arnetts, I want my Gegards and Larkins and Benson's cuz.

 

[Lukewarm Carl]

LOL Larkin cut because of style? WTF, Larkin is an exciting striker, that is the style you want. Gegard was lowballed, he said it in interviews and so did his manager, respectfully what on earth are you talking about?

They are paying Sage 60K just to show. Justin Gaethje deservedly came in at 100K show, 100K win bonus. You are not at all telling the truth saying Gegard wantd truckloads, and he deserves truckloads, Gegard wanted a fair raise and would have stayed in the ufc if WME where not cheap pieces of shit with no vision.

Gegard was on a contract of 80K show 40 win bonus, while Gathje came in at 100K show 100 win bonus for example. Gaeithje was a former WSOF champ. Gegard has been a kickboxing champ, Dream MW champ, Strikeforce LHW champ, wins over heavies like Mark Hunt etc....he goes and finishes his contract with 5 wins, last 4 by finish by strikes and they offer him the exact sme terms on their first offer.


Step back and think about that. Gegard has bigger wins and more pedigree than Gaeithje who I am using as a reference. As a fan you should have a probme with this. Gegard should habe been getting an offer of like 150K show, 80 win bonus from WME at the very least.

Instead they said "hey even though you outperfmed your contract come and take the same shitty contract again"

Are you kidding LOL Now in Bellator he is at 200K maybe 250 K flat ratre, plsu better sponsors and better terms.

WME is a joke, Kyrlovs would have sitgned if the yoffer was better, Larkin is a striker yet you say they cut him because of style, that makes no sense at all ,not even close to sense dude.

Tumenov is an exciting striker in his own right, even Bader and Davis who are nto that exciting you still have to keep those guys cause you have no depth at lhw.

But instead we get Austin Arnett in the ufc, fuck that yo.

Gegard said specifically that the UFC would have to offer enough to compensate for the sponsorship money. So if Bellator offers 200k and UFC offers 200k but he's stuck with Heebok then the UFC is going to have to offer significantly more based on what Gegard thinks he can make on the open sponsorship market. So yes, he flat out told the UFC to "show him the money." Did he deserve more than he was earning in the UFC, damn right he did. Sadly, in combat sports you get paid based on what you bring in. Andre Ward just retired from boxing because he wasn't making a ton of money even though he was one of the top 3 fighters in the sport.

This is not a sport like the NFL or MLB where your earnings are directly related to your production while competing.

It's based as much on what you do outside of the cage as inside of it. If fans don't react to you then you get shit. I don't like it, I didn't invent it, but it's the way it is and always has been in the fight game. It's the reason why the UFC can justify paying Sage's shitty self so well when they hear the crowd explode in Norfolk when he walks out to fight a nobody.

You're also forgetting that there is a very good chance that letting guys like Bader, Bendo, Davis, Tumenov all go elsewhere is part of a strategy to prove that they aren't a monopoly or monopsony in relation to the lawsuits.


And once again, if you read what I wrote my statement was "I would have liked to have seen them keep Larkin." I then followed that with saying that Bader and Davis were effectively cut or not offered big deals due to their styles. So don't get your jimmies rustled because you failed to read my words correctly.

 

[SensoriaUtopia]

Dude, as an MMA fan you should see a problem with the biggest MMA org in the world lowballig fighters like Gegard. It's one thing to let someone like Chael Sonnen go to Bellator, the guy is washed up, past his prime, why not have a few fun fights in Bellators against other legends. But now they are letting guys in their prime guy, even guys who are super exciting fan friendly style fighters, that is horrible.

Instead they are bringing us people liek Austin Arnett, hence the ponit of the thread. This guy did not even win his fight on the contender series and the guy he fought and lost too, Brad Davis, shoot even that guy is not ufc level. To bring in Austin who lost his fight and has not even won a fight since then is to really say to us "hey we will clearly be cheap and let great fighters leave and bring you B level fighters and we will fool you by having a few stars like Conor to cover up the issues".

They are ruining the UFC and the enjoyment level. Also even the Krylov if you read between the lines you can see its manager speak buddy. Kyrlov would have absolutely stayed with the ufc if they gave him a good offer. He has a smart agent who is telling him to say the right things pubically to not burn any bridges in case he comes back to the ufc years later, his agent is having him be smart. Trust me, if Kyrlov was offered a strong offer, he would still be in the ufc right now.

 

[Lukewarm Carl]

Dude, as an MMA fan you should see a problem with the biggest MMA org in the world lowballig fighters like Gegard. It's one thing to let someone like Chael Sonnen go to Bellator, the guy is washed up, past his prime, why not have a few fun fights in Bellators against other legends. But now they are letting guys in their prime guy, even guys who are super exciting fan friendly style fighters, that is horrible.

Instead they are bringing us people liek Austin Arnett, hence the ponit of the thread. This guy did not even win his fight on the contender series and the guy he fought and lost too, Brad Davis, shoot even that guy is not ufc level. To bring in Austin who lost his fight and has not even won a fight since then is to really say to us "hey we will clearly be cheap and let great fighters leave and bring you B level fighters and we will fool you by having a few stars like Conor to cover up the issues".

They are ruining the UFC and the enjoyment level. Also even the Krylov if you read between the lines you can see its manager speak buddy. Kyrlov would have absolutely stayed with the ufc if they gave him a good offer. He has a smart agent who is telling him to say the right things pubically to not burn any bridges in case he comes back to the ufc years later, his agent is having him be smart. Trust me, if Kyrlov was offered a strong offer, he would still be in the ufc right now.

If they offered any of them a strong enough offer they would have stayed. But honestly, that's not in the best interest of the fighters, not in the best interest of the UFC, and not in the best interest of the sport.

Part of me wishes that there was only 1 giant organization so we could have all of the best fighters constantly fighting. But that would be horrible for fighters as there has to be competition to drive pay up and far too often big companies get complacent.

Another part of me, the bigger part, desperately wants the UFC to get rid of at least 50% of the people on the roster because if you're going to be the NFL of fight sports then you can't have so many NCAA level athletes front and center.

And then there's the part of me that runs a business that sees all of these things as a necessary evil. Based on the amount of debt, amount of regulatory hurdles and lawsuits, the diminishing ratings, they have to be exceedingly cost conscious and more live content allows for extra revenue streams which helps them to achieve their short term goals. Those goals are very clear as well.. WME is not a fan of the sport like Lorenzo was. Ari isn't training with Vitor. The WME goal is to make money by any means necessary even if it means making their product quality drop in exchange for having a massive amount of it so long as they hit their EBITDA number and can ultimately sell it after extracting as much money as possible along the way.

So it's not even so much that I agree with them and certainly don't like it.. But I do understand it.

 

[Gay For Longo]

It's really quite simple

 

[Gay For Longo]

Gegard said specifically that the UFC would have to offer enough to compensate for the sponsorship money. So if Bellator offers 200k and UFC offers 200k but he's stuck with Heebok then the UFC is going to have to offer significantly more based on what Gegard thinks he can make on the open sponsorship market. So yes, he flat out told the UFC to "show him the money." Did he deserve more than he was earning in the UFC, damn right he did. Sadly, in combat sports you get paid based on what you bring in. Andre Ward just retired from boxing because he wasn't making a ton of money even though he was one of the top 3 fighters in the sport.

This is not a sport like the NFL or MLB where your earnings are directly related to your production while competing.

It's based as much on what you do outside of the cage as inside of it. If fans don't react to you then you get shit. I don't like it, I didn't invent it, but it's the way it is and always has been in the fight game. It's the reason why the UFC can justify paying Sage's shitty self so well when they hear the crowd explode in Norfolk when he walks out to fight a nobody.

You're also forgetting that there is a very good chance that letting guys like Bader, Bendo, Davis, Tumenov all go elsewhere is part of a strategy to prove that they aren't a monopoly or monopsony in relation to the lawsuits.


And once again, if you read what I wrote my statement was "I would have liked to have seen them keep Larkin." I then followed that with saying that Bader and Davis were effectively cut or not offered big deals due to their styles. So don't get your jimmies rustled because you failed to read my words correctly.

I just want to make one correction and then I pretty much agree
Ward went out easily the #1 boxer in the world
There is no question he was #1
Now with ward gone, Bud is #1

 

[Lukewarm Carl]

I just want to make one correction and then I pretty much agree
Ward went out easily the #1 boxer in the world
There is no question he was #1
Now with ward gone, Bud is #1

I like to leave myself some wiggle room when I make statements like that because someone is always going to throw someone else up there like Bud, Loma, GGG, etc. But I actually do agree with you. I can't stand Ward but he's a fantastic boxer.

 

[SensoriaUtopia]

If they offered any of them a strong enough offer they would have stayed. But honestly, that's not in the best interest of the fighters, not in the best interest of the UFC, and not in the best interest of the sport.

Part of me wishes that there was only 1 giant organization so we could have all of the best fighters constantly fighting. But that would be horrible for fighters as there has to be competition to drive pay up and far too often big companies get complacent.

Another part of me, the bigger part, desperately wants the UFC to get rid of at least 50% of the people on the roster because if you're going to be the NFL of fight sports then you can't have so many NCAA level athletes front and center.

And then there's the part of me that runs a business that sees all of these things as a necessary evil. Based on the amount of debt, amount of regulatory hurdles and lawsuits, the diminishing ratings, they have to be exceedingly cost conscious and more live content allows for extra revenue streams which helps them to achieve their short term goals. Those goals are very clear as well.. WME is not a fan of the sport like Lorenzo was. Ari isn't training with Vitor. The WME goal is to make money by any means necessary even if it means making their product quality drop in exchange for having a massive amount of it so long as they hit their EBITDA number and can ultimately sell it after extracting as much money as possible along the way.

So it's not even so much that I agree with them and certainly don't like it.. But I do understand it.

The problem is there is no Ali act currently in MMA. So that's why I wish WME would pay the top guys like Gegard. Thing is, if they had any idea how to market they would promote these guys. Only in MMA do people say "the fighter has to do this, he has to be loud and he has to market him"

WME will say that because they are feckless, Barry Sanders and Peyton Manning are about as exciting as chalk but NFL knew how to market them, they never told Barry or Peyton to act a fool or be loud and rude or be anything but themselves.

There is a huge motherfucking problem when you are letting elite A + level fighters guy who are actually amazingly exciting striker and submission types, that is a huge black mark on WME. Sure we understand it, but that should not translate to us putting up with it. Honestly the only thing has taken place since they took over is the product is shittier, the talent pool is not what it was in the ufc, and the rankings are all upside down. They literally have not done 1 good thing.

At least if we had an Ali act, say Gegard beats Rafael and gets the Bellator MW title, then under the Ali act the orgs would be forced to give us a true MW champ by having Gegard fight whoever is the UFC champ. Dana and WME don't want that Ali act but we need it or else this sport will always and forever be 2nd class.

Fuck WME, they are the worst thing that has happened to the UFC. I am with the fighters, always will be.

 

[Lukewarm Carl]

The problem is there is no Ali act currently in MMA. So that's why I wish WME would pay the top guys like Gegard. Thing is, if they had any idea how to market they would promote these guys. Only in MMA do people say "the fighter has to do this, he has to be loud and he has to market him"

WME will say that because they are feckless, Barry Sanders and Peyton Manning are about as exciting as chalk but NFL knew how to market them, they never told Barry or Peyton to act a fool or be loud and rude or be anything but themselves.

There is a huge motherfucking problem when you are letting elite A + level fighters guy who are actually amazingly exciting striker and submission types, that is a huge black mark on WME. Sure we understand it, but that should not translate to us putting up with it. Honestly the only thing has taken place since they took over is the product is shittier, the talent pool is not what it was in the ufc, and the rankings are all upside down. They literally have not done 1 good thing.

At least if we had an Ali act, say Gegard beats Rafael and gets the Bellator MW title, then under the Ali act the orgs would be forced to give us a true MW champ by having Gegard fight whoever is the UFC champ. Dana and WME don't want that Ali act but we need it or else this sport will always and forever be 2nd class.

Fuck WME, they are the worst thing that has happened to the UFC. I am with the fighters, always will be.

I happily agree with that last sentence. I also don't absolve the fighters of their part in allowing it to go on.

A fighter has as much control over their career as they're willing to put into it. If they don't stand up for their own needs, no one is going to hand it to them. If they need more money, then they need to stand up and demand it. The more that do, the easier it is. Then it snowballs and the orgs have to listen to the fighters. I wanted more money at my job and I laid out the case for why I should get it and I was prepared to either get it or look elsewhere. I got it. If 150 of the better (not even the best) fighters in the UFC and Bellator demand better treatment, they'll get it. But if they don't risk it, these billion dollar companies aren't going to suddenly feel generous and double everyone's salary.

PS. I don't like the way the Ali Act for MMA is currently laid out as I'm afraid that it will lead to more and more fighters being cautious and fighting strictly to not lose instead of fighting to put on a show.


But yes, WME is the devil for what they're doing even if I totally get it.

 

[SensoriaUtopia]

Now to be specific, the top of the lines guys, champs and a few guys in each weightclass get paid well. I also don't have much of an issue with the low level guys starting at 10K show. But the reebok pay is bs, reebok said when they first came out that this was the starting of the pay and they would increase it in intervals and the only thing that has increased is 2500 intro becamse 3500 intro sponsor pay. My issue is with the guy who ranked between 5 to 20 in each weightclass, thse guys are not champs or in the top 5 but they are A level fighters and these are the guys that are severely underpaid.

Guys like Al Iaquinta, Yuri Alcantara, Santiago Ponzniibbio, these types of guys are so ridiculously underpaid. I was so pissed when Lima gave away the fight to Rory, that fight was there for Lima to easily take it and he decided to lay on Rory in rd 3 and 4, if Lima won the fight it would have really given a light to casuals that Bellator is right there with the UFC now and I think more guys would be going to Bellator and giving Bellator legitamacy if Lima won the fight. THey still will get new solid fihgters, I just felt that would have increased the rate.

WME has no marketing talent and that is where the problem lies. They never to improve their marketing, get smarter people in there, then we don't have to hope that fighters are like D bags to get noticed, a fighter will get noticed based on the fights. Just like New England is always in the super bowl, not beause they will have many people watch them, but on their play. If they win an exciting game or a boring dont matter just about winning.

When WME gets this we will advance. When they get smarter marketers, we will advance in this sport. They don't need to be a charity but they need have a logic and pay guys who win even if they are not PPV sellers. It's on WME to market these guys, you can't put it on the fighters.