My kids get all the required vaccines. But I'm damn sure going to scrutinize any optional ones and weigh the risks and benefits, as all parent should. And so should everyone in the medical community.
As an aside, there isn't a week if not a day a patient comes into my GF's office with an internet self misdiagnosis. Depending on the day she is on 10 to 15 minute centers for non procedural or surgical intervention. These people take so much of her time to convince them they have something else or it's nothing. They question how she knows. They are some of the most difficult patients to deal with. They come in and just want an Rx. She explains the Rx they think they need want solve their issue. They are never happy. Some listen some don't. The internet for all it's good is also a scourge.
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By directly refuting bad data in this thread?
By me posting that I read about concerns with a vaccines and research into their safety in my journals all the time...
The truth is not always in the middle if one side is just absolutely wrong in the scientific data.
Don't come after me as some absolutist when I'm responding to over the top bad data.
Here is just one of my basic concerns about the vaccine (and one of the lead doctors in the study agrees if that makes you feel better).
They are getting this vaccine to prevent cervical cancer.
The chances of cervical cancer are 1 in 40,000 and largely at 50 years of age and older.
This vaccine is being marketed to 10 and 11 year old girls. The vaccine lasts 5 years.
Her chances of having a life altering reaction from the vaccine is 1 in 500.
Hopefully, she isn't sexually active yet. How is this beneficial at 11 years old?
In most cases HPV isn't harmful to the person.
They are getting this vaccine to prevent cervical cancer.
The chances of cervical cancer are 1 in 40,000 and largely at 50 years of age and older.
This vaccine is being marketed to 10 and 11 year old girls. The vaccine lasts 5 years.
Her chances of having a life altering reaction from the vaccine is 1 in 500.
Hopefully, she isn't sexually active yet. How is this beneficial at 11 years old?
In most cases HPV isn't harmful to the person.
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That's not the way doctors get paid. I get paid whether you take the vaccine or not.
I lose money on many vaccines.
You just doubled down on it. I am smart or dumb enough to know other people know more about certain subject matter than I do. No amount of reading on my part will trump their education and experience.
^^ this applies to doctors/pediatricians too of course
The polarization of this issue is dumb. Not all vaccines are great (or even healthy), and not all vaccines are bad (or stupid). Some work amazingly, some are wise for traveling, others may be non-effective. Some are a cash grab, others detrimental side effects, others just downright nasty.
Its impossible for anyone to know for sure exactly which is which but we must try to discern at an individual basis. Silly to jump into one camp or another, either thinking they are all great or all evil.
I also think its a big mistake to think that doctors and pediatricians etc are some infallible trustworthy source of reliable authority. Their schooling is great is some areas but certainly limited in others. Certainly doesn't make you experts in everything, some issues like vaccines they know as much as laypersons, but with a massive unconscious bias influencing their critical thinking. And they are human, I've met lots of dopey doctors who I didn't think were worth much.
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Still pushing that?
Off one statement of an estimate that didn't even say that?
And then has been thoroughly debunked by actual injections being performed without said subsequent result?
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as I mentioned earlier you need to look at the entire morbidity of which are alternatives are including leep procedures,conizations, and subsequent problems that happened due to those invasive procedure.
You're considering vaccine morbidity vs cervical cancer mortality.
The question is if you don't get the vaccine how many other things will you do to keep the current low rate of cervical cancer. Cervical cancer isn't normally as low in the US. It is low because we pap smear and then freeze and cut early cancers out.
Morbidity vs. Morbidity and mortality vs mortality.
Bad data?
Doctor, I was gonna let it pass but...
I asked you if there was proof that HPV causes cancer. One of the studies that you linked for me related to head and neck cancer. Now without clicking and reading for myself, I first assumed that their must be some link to HPV causing head and neck cancer. But I read it. Guess what the study showed?
25% of people in the study with head and neck cancer also had HPV.
25%.
Then blah, blah, blah about the study.
Conclusion: People with head and neck cancer that have HPV will have a much better prognosis.
Well, I'll be damned. This is interesting.
That applies to anyone. If you have a doctor, mechanic, lawn guy you don't trust find a new one. Be an education snob. Look at where they trained. Put the odds in your favor.
vaccine question can be expanded more esoterically;
how far is it Ok to keep tinkering with & modifying ourselves as a species? Could it ever reach a tipping point where its like the Sorcerer's Apprentice? ie; we've messed with it so far that we won't be able to keep it stable, and thus have to keep messing with it in order to keep up with the mess?
How much might it be valuable to learn how to strengthen our own immune system, as opposed to finding artificial ways to replace it?
It gets into transhumanism etc if you follow it through
Interesting ethical question if looked at in broader terms
how far is it Ok to keep tinkering with & modifying ourselves as a species? Could it ever reach a tipping point where its like the Sorcerer's Apprentice? ie; we've messed with it so far that we won't be able to keep it stable, and thus have to keep messing with it in order to keep up with the mess?
How much might it be valuable to learn how to strengthen our own immune system, as opposed to finding artificial ways to replace it?
It gets into transhumanism etc if you follow it through
Interesting ethical question if looked at in broader terms
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You really don't understand the data.
it's an epidemiological study that shows certain head and neck cancers are specifically different if you have HPV and that those head and neck cancer have epidemiologically data showing they are caused by said HPV.
That subsect of cancers and head and neck cancer has better outcomes than the head and neck cancers caused by things like smoking.
how you managed to turn that into HPV might make you survive head and neck cancer is completely misconstruing the data.
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Yes. My overwhelming effort in this thread has been taking apart the study that was referenced by an out of context statement suggesting that people that got gardasil send them to the hospital in the ER by the thousands.
Cervical cancer is on the rise in some places.
You could argue that women who receive the vaccine won't think it necessary to get yearly Pap smears anymore, not realizing it's only good for 5 years. We won't see that for years to come.
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The original five-year study and concern for limited immunity in gardasil is one of the major criticisms of the vaccine and understandably so.
Patient-focused outcomes of still supported use to date.
If we want to have the conversation that the gardasil isn't as effective as it is sold we can have that one. Theres a lot of debate about that conversation.
We are seeing a vast decrease in HPV at the moment where people get the vaccine. At a population level the vaccine is doing its job.
if we don't see subsequent patient-centered outcomes like decrease morbidity and mortality follow through because of unexpected things like paps going away (which is not recommended) then surely we should put our dollars into more paps and less gardasil.
but there's no data to support that right now he even if it is a good hypothesis to consider
Vaccine mongs
Well, I do understand that most research data can support a lot of different views.
Sometimes you have to know when to fold. This is that time. Being misinformed is his happy place. Let him be happy. Hopefully he has an intelligent spouse that gets the kid vaccinated and just doesn't tell him.
H1N1 hype in Canada a few years back spooked me right out. That was a shitshow of epic proportions
Maybe I don't understand the data. Let me ask you this, is it possible to have the HPV virus and it NOT be present in the head/neck tumor?
We have a 98 year old WWII vet still alive. Has modern medicine kept him living longer? Other than the couple melanomas my GF has removed he hasn't had anything major. I can tell you we are not meant to live this long. He still walks on bone to bone knees. He is completely incontinent. He can't hear. He's a proud man. He wakes up every day. Dresses like he is going somewhere. Shirt always tucked in, clean shaven etc etc. I know he isn't happy living though. He always says he's ready to fold his tent up.
Indeed.
Please bring some information to the discussion. Well information besides that everyone else is ignorant.
We all know that.
Bullshit.