Zuffa denied request to restrict financials from Rob Maysey (MMAFA)

[Ted Williams' head]

I strongly disagree but am not the best at replying on this question of yours. I'm hoping @ErikMagraken or R @Rob Maysey can enter in for the best way to inform you.

Also the comment about "couldn't cut it in the UFC" isn't really accurate. Nate fought for the title, Fitch was the number two WW for a long time and fought for the title, Carlos was a former champ and highley respected PRIDE guyand Cung gave us some good fights at the end of his career like KOing former champ Franklin. If you don't agree with the lawsuits intentions that's one thing but I see no need to try and discredit those fighters who are doing what they feel is right.

I'm not saying those guys didn't have success or their careers didn't have merit, but the fact is when you get cut, that's Dana White telling you "listen, you're not cutting it here. Go win some fights on the smaller shows and maybe we'll have you back". Am I not right in that? Most of those guys are disgruntled ex employees who were cut because, at the time of being cut, they couldn't cut it. I just giving the facts, I have nothing against any of them.

 

[Ted Williams' head]

did you know that nick was dropped from a championship fight for not doing his media obligations that he wasn't being paid for? if a fighter has to do these media spots, should they not be compensated?

It was in his contract that he had to do a certain number of media appearances. To my knowledge, even top Hollywood actors have that built into their contract when they finish and have to promote a movie. Do NFL/NBA/NHL/MLB/ect get paid for press conferences and TV interviews? I don't think so.

As far as I know, that comes along with the purse. The 500k or whatever Diaz was going to get paid for the GSP fight stipulated him to fight and show up for a certain number of media appearances, so technically he was being compensated for them.

 

[Ted Williams' head]

Really? It has worked for many other industries--including sports. What makes this industry different?

For more on our allegations, please see the initial complaint that is posted here: http://www.cohenmilstein.com/media/pnc/5/media.1675.pdf

I'm skeptical, but if the end result gets the fighters paid more money I'm all for it. Things like this, and the union you tried to form a few years ago, make me nervous that the pendulum might be swung too far the other way and start interfering with Zuffa's ability to run an effective business.

That's just my take on it. I don't think a lot of fans are thinking about the possible repercussions of such an action. But hey, I'm just a fan, I have no control or influence over anything, so I'm cool to sit back and see how this thing plays out.

 

[La Paix]

I'm not saying those guys didn't have success or their careers didn't have merit, but the fact is when you get cut, that's Dana White telling you "listen, you're not cutting it here. Go win some fights on the smaller shows and maybe we'll have you back". Am I not right in that? Most of those guys are disgruntled ex employees who were cut because, at the time of being cut, they couldn't cut it. I just giving the facts, I have nothing against any of them.

Perhaps but it seems like an attempt to discredit these guys.

You wrote

"a bunch of bitter ex employees who couldn't hack it in the UFC"

That not just giving the facts. These guys most certain could hack it in the UFC and they did so at the highest levels when they were active and at the top of their game. If your point is that at this present time they can't then fine but that could be said about guys like Royce, Severn, Randleman, Coleman and many others (who are highley regarded) so I don't see the sense in mentioning it for any other reason than it be an insult. For anybody to make a statement like that especially towards a guy like Newton is ridiculous considering his acheivments and fights like him vs Saku. Out of those four guys Fitch is the only one who's even active still and when he was in the UFC and in his prime it was really only a prime GSP who could stop him.

As far as being bitter, sure. Again though that's another statement that could be said about any other plaintiff in any other case known and its usually the reason for legal action. Saying these guys are bitter does sound like like its a personal vendetta that they are pursuing in an attempt to better nobody other than themselves which isn't even close to the reasoning behind the lawsuote.

I've heard comments like yours before and it just seems like an attempt to shit on very credible fighters because they don't agree with their cause. If people don't like the lawsuit that's fine but I'd just ask them to read into it more before resorting to personal attacks on those who are behind it. I genuinely feel that this is a good thing and that their intentions are to better the MMA landscape for current and future fighters.

 

[Narcosynthesis]

Who cares when the plaintiffs get to see the financials. When do I get to see them?

 

[kneeblock]

I'm skeptical, but if the end result gets the fighters paid more money I'm all for it. Things like this, and the union you tried to form a few years ago, make me nervous that the pendulum might be swung too far the other way and start interfering with Zuffa's ability to run an effective business.

That's just my take on it. I don't think a lot of fans are thinking about the possible repercussions of such an action. But hey, I'm just a fan, I have no control or influence over anything, so I'm cool to sit back and see how this thing plays out.

This is an interesting point. There almost certainly will be system wide repercussions in MMA if this suit and organizing efforts are successful, as there are in every industry. In fact, we'll likely see an appreciable contraction of the UFC roster and Zuffa, riddled with its own debts, may even sell off the company.

But why would that happen? Whenever there are private sector labor disputes, the workers are pilloried after the fact if the industry suffers losses because maximal profit is practically sanctified in American culture. It's not enough to make a decent profit. A company has to extract maximum surplus value. And the beneficiaries of that value are typically investors and executives first with the tiniest trickle going to workers.

When the balance gets shifted and a certain (usually fixed) allocation of profits gets given to workers, suddenly they take the blame for the industry's implosion, rather than reckless management or high executive compensation. When Zuffa used to plead for fan support because they were in the red, it was never once mentioned that Dana White or the Fertitta Brothers were willing to take a haircut. The Fertittas offloaded debts across their other ventures then later used UFC profits to shore up losses incurred in Station Casinos bankruptcy (while painting workers who wanted to organize during both good times and bad as unreasonable). They have a storied history of hoarding profits at the top then moving money around to cover their missteps.

So if fighters agitate for better compensation and it causes pain in the near term, the blame will not rest with them, even though that's undeniably the rhetoric that will be launched in an effort to break solidarity and justify draconian restructuring. It will be the greed of the ownership, who have to have that snow delivered to their driveways in the desert and have to maintain their place on the Forbes list no matter the cost.

 

[Narcosynthesis]

This is an interesting point. There almost certainly will be system wide repercussions in MMA if this suit and organizing efforts are successful, as there are in every industry. In fact, we'll likely see an appreciable contraction of the UFC roster and Zuffa, riddled with its own debts, may even sell off the company.

But why would that happen? Whenever there are private sector labor disputes, the workers are pilloried after the fact if the industry suffers losses because maximal profit is practically sanctified in American culture. It's not enough to make a decent profit. A company has to extract maximum surplus value. And the beneficiaries of that value are typically investors and executives first with the tiniest trickle going to workers.

When the balance gets shifted and a certain (usually fixed) allocation of profits gets given to workers, suddenly they take the blame for the industry's implosion, rather than reckless management or high executive compensation. When Zuffa used to plead for fan support because they were in the red, it was never once mentioned that Dana White or the Fertitta Brothers were willing to take a haircut. The Fertittas offloaded debts across their other ventures then later used UFC profits to shore up losses incurred in Station Casinos bankruptcy (while painting workers who wanted to organize during both good times and bad as unreasonable). They have a storied history of hoarding profits at the top then moving money around to cover their missteps.

So if fighters agitate for better compensation and it causes pain in the near term, the blame will not rest with them, even though that's undeniably the rhetoric that will be launched in an effort to break solidarity and justify draconian restructuring. It will be the greed of the ownership, who has to have that snow delivered to their driveways in the desert and has to maintain their place on the Forbes list no matter the cost.

So nobody knows how it's going to play out in the long term?

 

[Ted Williams' head]

Perhaps but it seems like an attempt to discredit these guys.

You wrote

"a bunch of bitter ex employees who couldn't hack it in the UFC"

That not just giving the facts. These guys most certain could hack it in the UFC and they did so at the highest levels when they were active and at the top of their game. If your point is that at this present time they can't then fine but that could be said about guys like Royce, Severn, Randleman, Coleman and many others (who are highley regarded) so I don't see the sense in mentioning it for any other reason than it be an insult. For anybody to make a statement like that especially towards a guy like Newton is ridiculous considering his acheivments and fights like him vs Saku. Out of those four guys Fitch is the only one who's even active still and when he was in the UFC and in his prime it was really only a prime GSP who could stop him.

As far as being bitter, sure. Again though that's another statement that could be said about any other plaintiff in any other case known and its usually the reason for legal action. Saying these guys are bitter does sound like like its a personal vendetta that they are pursuing in an attempt to better nobody other than themselves which isn't even close to the reasoning behind the lawsuote.

I've heard comments like yours before and it just seems like an attempt to shit on very credible fighters because they don't agree with their cause. If people don't like the lawsuit that's fine but I'd just ask them to read into it more before resorting to personal attacks on those who are behind it. I genuinely feel that this is a good thing and that their intentions are to better the MMA landscape for current and future fighters.

Wasn't meant as an insult to them personally or as fighters, it was meant more as an explanation for their motivation to attack the UFC. Do I think it's a personal vendetta against the UFC? Yeah, I do, but I don't think it's 100% one way or the other. I believe they probably do want to help the fighters as well, but I do believe there is an element of a personal vendetta. These are fighters who were cut and believe they weren't paid properly and got the short end of the stick. They want to strike out.

We can argue semantics all day, but when I wrote "a bunch of bitter ex employees who couldn't hack it in the UFC", I stick by that. They are a bunch (more than 1), they are bitter, they are ex employees, and in being cut by the UFC it was evident that they couldn't hack it.

Again, it's no insult to those guys, who I respect greatly as competitors. Carlos Newton was one of my first favorite fighters, I started watching MMA in 2001 just before Carlos won the WW title at UFC 31 and to see a fellow Canadian kick ass in the UFC was great. I respect all those guys, but the fact remains that they are mostly disgruntled employees.

 

[kneeblock]

Quarry, Newton and Le were not cut by the UFC.

 

[Narcosynthesis]

I respect all those guys, but the fact remains that they are mostly disgruntled employees.

 

[Ted Williams' head]

This is an interesting point. There almost certainly will be system wide repercussions in MMA if this suit and organizing efforts are successful, as there are in every industry. In fact, we'll likely see an appreciable contraction of the UFC roster and Zuffa, riddled with its own debts, may even sell off the company.

But why would that happen? Whenever there are private sector labor disputes, the workers are pilloried after the fact if the industry suffers losses because maximal profit is practically sanctified in American culture. It's not enough to make a decent profit. A company has to extract maximum surplus value. And the beneficiaries of that value are typically investors and executives first with the tiniest trickle going to workers.

When the balance gets shifted and a certain (usually fixed) allocation of profits gets given to workers, suddenly they take the blame for the industry's implosion, rather than reckless management or high executive compensation. When Zuffa used to plead for fan support because they were in the red, it was never once mentioned that Dana White or the Fertitta Brothers were willing to take a haircut. The Fertittas offloaded debts across their other ventures then later used UFC profits to shore up losses incurred in Station Casinos bankruptcy (while painting workers who wanted to organize during both good times and bad as unreasonable). They have a storied history of hoarding profits at the top then moving money around to cover their missteps.

So if fighters agitate for better compensation and it causes pain in the near term, the blame will not rest with them, even though that's undeniably the rhetoric that will be launched in an effort to break solidarity and justify draconian restructuring. It will be the greed of the ownership, who have to have that snow delivered to their driveways in the desert and have to maintain their place on the Forbes list no matter the cost.

You could be right. Believe it or not, I'm not Team Zuffa. I think they should be paying their guys more money, but I'm just very skeptical of this being the solution that's going to turn everything around. It'll be interesting to see what happens, though.

 

[Ted Williams' head]

Quarry, Newton and Le were not cut by the UFC.

Understood, that's why I tried to say "most of" in my posts.

 

[La Paix]

Wasn't meant as an insult to them personally or as fighters, it was meant more as an explanation for their motivation to attack the UFC. Do I think it's a personal vendetta against the UFC? Yeah, I do, but I don't think it's 100% one way or the other. I believe they probably do want to help the fighters as well, but I do believe there is an element of a personal vendetta. These are fighters who were cut and believe they weren't paid properly and got the short end of the stick. They want to strike out.

We can argue semantics all day, but when I wrote "a bunch of bitter ex employees who couldn't hack it in the UFC", I stick by that. They are a bunch (more than 1), they are bitter, they are ex employees, and in being cut by the UFC it was evident that they couldn't hack it.

Again, it's no insult to those guys, who I respect greatly as competitors. Carlos Newton was one of my first favorite fighters, I started watching MMA in 2001 just before Carlos won the WW title at UFC 31 and to see a fellow Canadian kick ass in the UFC was great. I respect all those guys, but the fact remains that they are mostly disgruntled employees.

If it wasn't meant as a personal attack then that's good to hear. But I can also list facts as you did to portray the same people in a much more positive light to support my opinion.

They are a bunch (more than 1), they are they are former contenders and a champion, they have valid reasons for a case it appears, they are ex employees who are no longer actively fighting (except Fitch), 3 weren't cut by the UFC and it was evident that they were able to hack when they were actively fighting but more than likely can't at this current time.

Good to see another Canadian on our forums contributing to the site

 

[La Paix]

You could be right. Believe it or not, I'm not Team Zuffa. I think they should be paying their guys more money, but I'm just very skeptical of this being the solution that's going to turn everything around. It'll be interesting to see what happens, though.

Fair enough and good to see you present your opinion without resorting to insults and the like.

 

[Narcosynthesis]

If it wasn't meant as a personal attack then that's good to hear. But I can also list facts as you did to portray the same people in a much more positive light to support my opinion.

They are a bunch (more than 1), they are they are former contenders and a champion, they have valid reasons for a case it appears, they are ex employees who are no longer actively fighting (except Fitch), 3 weren't cut by the UFC and it was evident that they were able to hack when they were actively fighting but more than likely can't at this current time.

Good to see another Canadian on our forums contributing to the site

Why did they wait until the UFC stopping signing their checks to file a lawsuit? If it's so horrible to work for the UFC why are there not any active employees signed on as plaintiffs? I think @DannyNL has a valid reason to question the plaintiffs motives.

 

[Ted Williams' head]

If it wasn't meant as a personal attack then that's good to hear. But I can also list facts as you did to portray the same people in a much more positive light to support my opinion.

They are a bunch (more than 1), they are they are former contenders and a champion, they have valid reasons for a case it appears, they are ex employees who are no longer actively fighting (except Fitch), 3 weren't cut by the UFC and it was evident that they were able to hack when they were actively fighting but more than likely can't at this current time.

Good to see another Canadian on our forums contributing to the site

I think we're all on the same page and want the same result, we just have different opinions on to how we can get there.

Maybe it was unfair of me to use terms I used, point taken. I just know the more vocal/visible fighters involved in this lawsuit (Le, Quarry, Fitch, ect) have all expressed tremendous anger at the UFC at every turn.

I know Le was a guy who voluntarily left and told Dana and co to stick it up their asses, and he can make his money in acting and doesn't need to fight. But what if the UFC offered Nate Quarry, Carlos Newton, ect some kind of office or ambassador job for Zuffa. Do I think they'd be involved with this out of the kindness of their hearts? To me it's doubtful.

 

[La Paix]

Why did they wait until the UFC stopping signing their checks to file a lawsuit? If it's so horrible to work for the UFC why are there not any active employees signed on as plaintiffs? I think @DannyNL has a valid reason to question the plaintiffs motives.

Carlos Newton last fight for the UFC was in 2004 and iirc the lawsuit started in late 2014 so a decade after. If Carlos was collecting money from them in another form I don't know about it so can't comment.

 

[Ted Williams' head]

Why did they wait until the UFC stopping signing their checks to file a lawsuit? If it's so horrible to work for the UFC why are there not any active employees signed on as plaintiffs? I think @DannyNL has a valid reason to question the plaintiffs motives.

Yeah and I think there's a lot to that. These guys are all ex-employees who are in a position where they are no longer receiving money from Zuffa and most likely never would have again. They have nothing to lose by attacking them and everything to gain in they win the lawsuit.

We can say "well current employees are scared to come out, and those who are still young don't want to burn bridges", and that's fair enough. But I'm having trouble seeing this as the pure altruistic act that a lot of people do.

 

[La Paix]

I think we're all on the same page and want the same result, we just have different opinions on to how we can get there.

Maybe it was unfair of me to use terms I used, point taken. I just know the more vocal/visible fighters involved in this lawsuit (Le, Quarry, Fitch, ect) have all expressed tremendous anger at the UFC at every turn.

I know Le was a guy who voluntarily left and told Dana and co to stick it up their asses, and he can make his money in acting and doesn't need to fight. But what if the UFC offered Nate Quarry, Carlos Newton, ect some kind of office or ambassador job for Zuffa. Do I think they'd be involved with this out of the kindness of their hearts? To me it's doubtful.

I honestly think these guys would laugh at any job offer but I could be wrong. This case is going to be a massive undertaking requiring an incredible amount of time and effort so to me it shows they are very dedicated to their cause.

Agree 100% on we all wanting a better path for fighters and obviously agree on we see that being done in a different manner.

 

[jason73]

is there any ex ufc employees who are not disgruntled?other than chuck and matt hughes who still have jobs can you think of any former employees who have anything good to say about them?

Why did they wait until the UFC stopping signing their checks to file a lawsuit? If it's so horrible to work for the UFC why are there not any active employees signed on as plaintiffs? I think @DannyNL has a valid reason to question the plaintiffs motives.

go in to work on monday and start talking shit about your boss and how he runs the company and see how that works out for you.

 

[jason73]

But I'm having trouble seeing this as the pure altruistic act that a lot of people do.

if it were to be purely about money they would have taken the first offer and folded by now

 

[Zeph]

Yeah and I think there's a lot to that. These guys are all ex-employees who are in a position where they are no longer receiving money from Zuffa and most likely never would have again. They have nothing to lose by attacking them and everything to gain in they win the lawsuit.

We can say "well current employees are scared to come out, and those who are still young don't want to burn bridges", and that's fair enough. But I'm having trouble seeing this as the pure altruistic act that a lot of people do.

I don't think anyone has said this is a pure altruistic act. Of course these fighters want to benefit, it is just that the way class action lawsuits work they benefit all the workers, not just the ones filing.

 

[Wild]

Fuck yeah they're disgruntled. They were taken advantage of for years...I would be a bit disgruntled as well lol. A perfect example is that highlight of Quarry getting KO'd by Franklin that seemingly plays at the beginning of every UFC event. It's been shown thousands of times by the UFC, but because Zuffa owns the rights to Quarry's likeness for life, he hasn't seen a dime for it. Another example is the UFC running Le's name thru the mud, before having all of the facts in place, after that testing debacle.

Things like that need to change...hence this lawsuit and the MMAFA.

 

[La Paix]

Yeah and I think there's a lot to that. These guys are all ex-employees who are in a position where they are no longer receiving money from Zuffa and most likely never would have again. They have nothing to lose by attacking them and everything to gain in they win the lawsuit.

We can say "well current employees are scared to come out, and those who are still young don't want to burn bridges", and that's fair enough. But I'm having trouble seeing this as the pure altruistic act that a lot of people do.

I just don't see somebody decoding to go after the UFC because they're not on the payroll anymore and are unhappy. These guys have incredibly deep pockets and legal resources so its not like its low hanging fruit for an easy payday.

And these guys do have lots to lose in the process. When they make their living based on their names and rep whether it's from traing students at a gym, podcast or fighting and they are up against a guy like Dana who has 3.3 million twitter followers their rep can easily be tarnished making it hard to earn a living.

 

[Ted Williams' head]

Fuck yeah they're disgruntled. They were taken advantage of for years...I would be a bit disgruntled as well lol. A perfect example is that highlight of Quarry getting KO'd by Franklin that seemingly plays at the beginning of every UFC event. It's been shown thousands of times by the UFC

But that's what was in the contract though, right?

I mean if you're a studio musician and you get hired to play drums on Taylor Swift's album, and you agree to a big one-time lump sum fee, you can't then go back afterwards and say "hey, I want a piece of the album sales" if it wasn't in your contract. These fighters are independent contractors.

If you're a painter and some business hires you to paint a big mural on their building, they're going to give you your agreed price and that's going to be the end of it. You don't get a piece of the gross that business does, or get paid every time someone walks by and looks at your art.

If you're part of a film crew, you get paid for your work but you don't get a piece of the box office receipts of the movie, or the Blu Ray sales. The people who act in the big Hollywood film get their salary, they don't get a piece of the gross or pay for their "likeness" (unless they had one of those great deals in the contract).

I mean if I'm wrong here, I'm wrong, but I just don't see the real gripe.