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my agree flair was to support what i believe the point of the post to be, namely, highlighting that americas debt is not some anomoly as corporate politicians against the reconciliation bill would like people to believe

the debt doesnt ever have to be paid off. and the credit card analogy is flawed since humans cant print their own money whereas the government can

high-level, increasing the debt for tax cuts to the rich is very, very unproductive

but increasing the debt to finance physical and social infratructure is productive
I see the argument you're making about there being times that increased debt is a good investment.
Is there any limit to this thinking? Can the debt get too high? Is there a concern about devaluing existing cash and people's hands? Do you want to incentivize people to get rid of their cash?


The Seemingly accelerating devaluing of my cash means that I'm moving as much as I can into property, RE syndications and assets like stocks. That's probably not really good for the average Joe That would like access to primary mortgages, 401K purchases, etc.
 

kaladin stormblessed

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Apr 24, 2017
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When government's print money the value of the existing money is diminished.
technically. but what is money? its just a store or percieved value

when you print money to finance projects that lead to an increase in value (or a decrease in loss of value), then the net gain for that printed money is an increased standard of living

as an example. lets say a woman is about to die from a curable disease. but the government prints money to pay for her cure

technically, the monry supply increased and the value of the dollar went down

but the benefits from her living and contributiong to society for drcade or multuple decades more than pays for the money that was printed to save her life

or a more macro example. government prints money to build a railway. technically, money was devalued. but iver time, the railway allows for goods to be nore efficiently transported to locations (less spoilage) as well as idea sharing among populations that interact with more than just their village
 

BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
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when you print money to finance projects that lead to an increase in value (or a decrease in loss of value), then the net gain for that printed money is an increased standard of living
When you print money to finance projects it goes to large corporations and the citizens pay increased taxes to cover the expense. Your railway is the perfect example of trickle down economics. It's good for a corporations bottom line but does nothing to help mine. Over the long term it hurts. Oh, and the inflation that accompanies all this spending is incredibly good for the rich as @Splinty points out. But if you ever have kids they'll never be able to afford a house.
 

kaladin stormblessed

Nala fanboy
Apr 24, 2017
17,670
20,056
I see the argument you're making about there being times that increased debt is a good investment.
Is there any limit to this thinking? Can the debt get too high? Is there a concern about devaluing existing cash and people's hands? Do you want to incentivize people to get rid of their cash?


The Seemingly accelerating devaluing of my cash means that I'm moving as much as I can into property, RE syndications and assets like stocks. That's probably not really good for the average Joe That would like access to primary mortgages, 401K purchases, etc.
yes. its less about the debt getting too high than the interest getting too high

its a complex topic on which i dont clame to have even an intermediate understanding of

but the amount of debt a country can service now and in the future depends on projected revenue (tax) streams

and the growth is partially a function of said investitures

take for instance the green new deal. we dont know what the ramifications will be, if any, from climate change

but progressives are currently making the argument that proactively investing in renewable energy now would prove to be cheaper than not investing in renewable energy and acting entirely reactionary as the consequences of manmade climate change come to fruition

(ie. lack of fresh water. starvarion. mass human migtations. civil unrest. etc)
 

kaladin stormblessed

Nala fanboy
Apr 24, 2017
17,670
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When you print money to finance projects it goes to large corporations and the citizens pay increased taxes to cover the expense. Your railway is the perfect example of trickle down economics. It's good for a corporations bottom line but does nothing to help mine. Over the long term it hurts. Oh, and the inflation that accompanies all this spending is incredibly good for the rich as @Splinty points out. But if you ever have kids they'll never be able to afford a house.
i believe humans are a pathetic species. there is zero percent chance i bring a child into this dying world
 

kaladin stormblessed

Nala fanboy
Apr 24, 2017
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For many people it's too late to make that decision.
i hear ya. thats why i wish people who are in the positions to do so would open their hearts to what is best for the long-term survival of humanity as opposed to what policies would differentiate whether they are able to go on 3 versus 1 vacation a year

as jane goodall once said (in a totally different context) "we did not inherit this land from our ancestors. we are borrowing it from our children"
 

kaladin stormblessed

Nala fanboy
Apr 24, 2017
17,670
20,056
When you print money to finance projects it goes to large corporations and the citizens pay increased taxes to cover the expense. Your railway is the perfect example of trickle down economics. It's good for a corporations bottom line but does nothing to help mine. Over the long term it hurts. Oh, and the inflation that accompanies all this spending is incredibly good for the rich as @Splinty points out. But if you ever have kids they'll never be able to afford a house.
corruption is a cost that reduces and potentially elimnates all gains from investment, but the fact that corruption exists cannot be used as an umbrella statement against all investment

railways for instance:

ive never looked in detail at railways. but would the world we live in exist without public financing of railways?

school for instance:

at one time, free public education didnt exist

now, it is free through 12th grade. and i would argue that the world benefits because of that

the question in terms of further public fonancing is whether or not 12th grade is stilll the perfect amount

or are there diminishing returns? should kids only be financed through 4th grade maybe?

or should kids be financed throigh 14th grade? or 16th grade?

in 2021, i argue for the latter
 

BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
61,464
56,756
i hear ya. thats why i wish people who are in the positions to do so would open their hearts to what is best for the long-term survival of humanity as opposed to what policies would differentiate whether they are able to go on 3 versus 1 vacation a year
Unfortunately it's the out of control spending that keeps the poor poor and is crippling the middle class.
 

BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
61,464
56,756
ive never looked in detail at railways. but would the world we live in exist without public financing of railways?
Business would have done it.

school for instance:

at one time, free public education didnt exist

now, it is free through 12th grade. and i would argue that the world benefits because of that

the question in terms of further public fonancing is whether or not 12th grade is stilll the perfect amount

or are there diminishing returns? should kids only be financed through 4th grade maybe?

or should kids be financed throigh 14th grade? or 16th grade?
Schools were founded to create "good citizens" not to educate.
 

kaladin stormblessed

Nala fanboy
Apr 24, 2017
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Unfortunately it's the out of control spending that keeps the poor poor and is crippling the middle class.
agreed, although we may define the "out of control" part differently

for instance, all the people getting paid hundreds of thousands a year to solve homelessness in california are mooching the system thanks to their friends

but i do think the world would benefit will differenr social spending to address that issue

---

also, in terms of military "defense spending" which is enormous and rising yearly, only progressives and libertarians ever ask the age-old "how are you going to pay for it"

printing money for the military is necessary, but not in the way it is currently being done
 

BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
61,464
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agreed, although we may define the "out of control" part differently

for instance, all the people getting paid hundreds of thousands a year to solve homelessness in california are mooching the system thanks to their friends

but i do think the world would benefit will differenr social spending to address that issue

---

also, in terms of military "defense spending" which is enormous and rising yearly, only progressives and libertarians ever ask the age-old "how are you going to pay for it"

printing money for the military is necessary, but not in the way it is currently being done
I'm not even sure that's true. Standing armies don't have great records.
 

kaladin stormblessed

Nala fanboy
Apr 24, 2017
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with all due respect to everyone here, i dont really care to spend time sharing my opinions since i suspect they are less valuable than i once assumed them to be

i come here to read and take in ideas

but splinty tagged me and i stupidly engaged

ugh

that god damn yacht captain and his tricks

 

kneeblock

Drapetomaniac
Apr 18, 2015
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Educate me




Uh oh.
The drag of an interest payment, our reserve currency status, deficit and debt being run at times of economic hardship... I'm aware of all of the pieces, but don't know if there is a general consensus on why or why not worry about this, or at which point a high debt harms us.
I've read many inputs over the years but they seem mostly political and not necessarily economist and I don't have the background to have an understanding if there's a general consensus.
The main thing to understand is the actual function of debt, especially national debt and especially in the case of the US. I think I've recommended it before, but a good primer on this is The Deficit Myth by Stephanie Kelton. While MMTers sometimes understate the downstream impact of a nation racking up debts and wave away the political difficulty of tax policy as a check on inflation, their theory of money is pretty on target at least so long as the current structure of global political economy remains intact.

At this point in global capitalism, debt is a leveraging instrument between nations and between nations and the private sector. The US central bank can basically do what it wants since the era of free floating currencies, as can some other regions/nations central banks that enjoy reserve or semi-reserve status. The national debt serves as an instrument to control the money supply, interest rates and regulate international trade, all of which are crucial when your currency is in such wide circulation. The problem of course is that this system largely relies on the rest of the world going along with it and on relative political and productive stability of the nation. So if the US began to seriously politically disintegrate or if the rest of the world just said F it, we're off those greenbacks, then the debt would become a very real and serious problem. While there are signs of both, neither are in their advanced stage at this point. It would require a lot of serious reorganization of the global economic system including the destruction of the IMF and World Bank for nations to unwind their positions so to speak from US reserve status. Because the US manages its global circulation of currency through bond issuance and other instruments, the sticker shock national debt signals the global dependency on the US rather than the other way around. In many ways, this dependence is more dangerous to most of the world than even the US nuclear arsenal and military might because being cut out of it has disastrous consequences. See Venezuela for an example. Lebanon is another example where the central bank is so desperate to hold onto dollars that it's willing to tank the rest of its economy and let the people literally starve and die rather than move it.

So in short, US debt is nothing like household debt and also not like other national debt. This system is not sustainable in my view and will eventually be replaced, but probably not until we're old and gray and full of sleep.

Another good book reco I can give is Debt: The First 5000 Years by David Graeber. Thinking about it, I wonder if this is what Squid Game was really about.