General Russia Ukraine round 2 Price hike boogaloo

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La Paix

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Jan 14, 2015
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Did the United States promise the Soviet Union that it would freeze NATO expansion?
Russian officials say that the U.S. government made a pledge to Soviet leaders not to expand the alliance's eastern borders, a commitment they say came during the flurry of diplomacy following the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 and surrounding the reunification of Germany in 1990. Proponents of this narrative often cite the words that U.S. Secretary of State James A. Baker said to Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev in February 1990, that "there would be no extension of NATO's jurisdiction for forces of NATO one inch to the east." They say the United States and NATO have repeatedly betrayed this verbal commitment in the decades since, taking advantage of Russia's tumultuous post-Soviet period and expanding the Western alliance several times, all the way to Russia's doorstep in the case of the Baltic states.

CONTEXT: A historical timeline of post-independence Ukraine

However, many Western analysts and former U.S. officials involved in these discussions dispute what they say is a selective view of history. They point out that, in early 1990, the focus of the diplomacy between the so-called Two Plus Four (East and West Germany plus the United States, France, the Soviet Union, and the United Kingdom) was the future of Germany and the question of whether the soon-to-be unified country would be part of NATO. (West Germany was already an alliance member, while East Germany was part of the Soviet-aligned Warsaw Pact.) They say that the discussions were not about NATO's long-term plans for eastward expansion, which would have made little sense at that time; the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union still existed, and there was scant indication they would dissolve as quickly as they did, in a matter of months. In a 2014 interview, Gorbachev said as much: "The topic of 'NATO expansion' was never discussed. It was not raised in those years."

The diplomacy between U.S. and Soviet leaders during this period focused on Germany and included discussions of various post-unification security options, including the potential for Germany to become part of both NATO and the Warsaw Pact, for Germany to be nonaligned, and even for the Soviet Union to join NATO. Early in the talks, Soviet leaders insisted that a unified Germany never become part of NATO, though they eventually accepted Germany's right to decide for itself. Similarly, the United States stepped back from Baker's initial language on not expanding "NATO's jurisdiction," which he reportedly used only in the discussion about whether NATO troops would be based in what was then East Germany. In the end, the treaty recognizing German unification that the Two Plus Four powers signed in the summer of 1990 stipulated that only German territorial (non-NATO) forces could be based in East Germany while Soviet forces withdrew. After that, only German forces assigned to NATO could be based there, not foreign NATO forces. The treaty doesn't mention NATO's rights and commitments beyond Germany.

 

La Paix

Fuck this place
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Jan 14, 2015
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On a lighter note watching these European news stations with dorky yet attractive women is nice.
 

La Paix

Fuck this place
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Jan 14, 2015
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Interesting angle.


At this moment, minutes before midnight, it's time to change words to alter deeds. Doing so requires both sides to think far outside the current box in which they have set their locks. Indeed, they need to contemplate the seemingly absurd. I propose NATO invite Russia to immediately join its ranks, which, of course, requires it to abide by NATO's charter. This includes Article 1, which requires members to:

"...settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered, and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations."

Once Russia is a NATO member, its fear of encirclement will dissipate. Moreover, it will be obligated to peacefully resolve its conflicts with Ukraine. Indeed, it can help enroll Ukraine into its new club - NATO. Russia should also, over time, be invited to join the European Union (EU).

 

BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
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Are you of the opinion that NATO broke a promise? Not being cheeky here but from all I can recall and revisit they did not.
Broke a written agreement, no. Broke a verbal one, yes. Gorbachev lays that out in your first posted quote, where he says "They broke assurances, but not promises." In the video you posted you'll notice the guy at least once says "So you know we gave him a hypothetical he agreed to, but you know, things changed." and goes on later to say something about "We wouldn't station equipment or soldiers permanently" How do we define non-permanent? I can promise you Russia and America have very different ideas of what that means.

All that being said, even if I completely concede and just say "Not only did NATO not promise to not expand, they promised they would." We have this gem:
View: https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/1494809960286507009


There was also someone in Cinton's administration who told him that you can't bring NATO to Russia's doorstep, but I can't remember the dude's name right now, so I can't find a source. In either case, this escalation into war is not a surprise to our political leaders. They knew this outcome was coming if they kept pressing and they did it anyways. Maybe we get lucky and Putin dies of a heart attack? I don't really see any other way out of this for the world.
 

BeardOfKnowledge

The Most Consistent Motherfucker You Know
Jul 22, 2015
61,524
56,796
Interesting angle.


At this moment, minutes before midnight, it's time to change words to alter deeds. Doing so requires both sides to think far outside the current box in which they have set their locks. Indeed, they need to contemplate the seemingly absurd. I propose NATO invite Russia to immediately join its ranks, which, of course, requires it to abide by NATO's charter. This includes Article 1, which requires members to:

"...settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered, and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations."

Once Russia is a NATO member, its fear of encirclement will dissipate. Moreover, it will be obligated to peacefully resolve its conflicts with Ukraine. Indeed, it can help enroll Ukraine into its new club - NATO. Russia should also, over time, be invited to join the European Union (EU).

I like this idea, and if they let Russia join when they asked in the 90's we wouldn't be here today. People today also seem to forget that NATO was founded as a defense against the USSR. When the USSR went away, NATO should have too.