General 14 students, 1 teacher dead following mass school shooting in Texas

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mysticmac said:
Much of the country already has that. The entire west coast has it, and it hasn't affected murder rates.
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You didn't ask me about murder rates. You're now changing the conversation.

You asked me about stolen guns and straw purchases.

Universal background checks reduce interstate gun trafficking in states where it has been implemented and increased likelihood of enforcement against those in possession of stolen guns and enforcement against straw purchases.
 
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Filthy said:
remember when I pointed out that Canada's database has never been used to solve or prevent a crime?

I get that Canada is a third-world shithole, but....how would ours be different?

are criminals in Canada unarmed?
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It doesn't appear that Canada keeps much of a database

Canadian Firearms Registry - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

Originally, the program required the registration of all non-restricted firearms but this requirement was dropped on April 6, 2012, by the coming into force of Bill C-19.[2][3] Bill C-19 also mandated the destruction of the non-restricted records of the registry as soon as feasible.[4] The province of Quebec immediately filed a request for an injunction to prevent the destruction of the data. A temporary injunction was granted by the Superior Court of Quebec on April 5, 2012 to prevent the data for Quebec residents from being destroyed until legal arguments could be heard.[5] On March 27, 2015, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in Quebec (AG) v Canada (AG) that the destruction of long-gun registry records was within the constitutional power of Parliament to make criminal law, denying the Government of Quebec's legal challenge and allowing for those records to be destroyed.

Where are Ontario’s crime guns coming from? New data shows top U.S. source states | Globalnews.ca

A Global News investigation into cross-border trafficking offers new insight on where Ontario's crime guns are coming and how they are being purchased.
globalnews.ca globalnews.ca


The details from that seizure, and many others across the U.S., are vital to understanding how violence on Canadian streets unfolds.

Yet, there is no national database on the origins of Canada’s so-called crime guns, meaning there is still no broad view of where these firearms might be coming from.
 
Filthy

Filthy

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Splinty said:
It doesn't appear that Canada keeps much of a database

Canadian Firearms Registry - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

Originally, the program required the registration of all non-restricted firearms but this requirement was dropped on April 6, 2012, by the coming into force of Bill C-19.[2][3] Bill C-19 also mandated the destruction of the non-restricted records of the registry as soon as feasible.[4] The province of Quebec immediately filed a request for an injunction to prevent the destruction of the data. A temporary injunction was granted by the Superior Court of Quebec on April 5, 2012 to prevent the data for Quebec residents from being destroyed until legal arguments could be heard.[5] On March 27, 2015, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in Quebec (AG) v Canada (AG) that the destruction of long-gun registry records was within the constitutional power of Parliament to make criminal law, denying the Government of Quebec's legal challenge and allowing for those records to be destroyed.

Where are Ontario’s crime guns coming from? New data shows top U.S. source states | Globalnews.ca

A Global News investigation into cross-border trafficking offers new insight on where Ontario's crime guns are coming and how they are being purchased.
globalnews.ca globalnews.ca


The details from that seizure, and many others across the U.S., are vital to understanding how violence on Canadian streets unfolds.

Yet, there is no national database on the origins of Canada’s so-called crime guns, meaning there is still no broad view of where these firearms might be coming from.
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how does this work?

everyone has to bring in their firearms to get them registered?
 
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Filthy said:
how does this work?

everyone has to bring in their firearms to get them registered?
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No idea. All I know is that day haven't had much of a gun registry for 10 years and when a gun is used in a crime, it's difficult to trace back at any significant level. When they do manage to trace them back, they're often back to the United States.



Should we just get rid of FFL background checks too?
 
mysticmac

mysticmac

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Splinty said:
You didn't ask me about murder rates. You're now changing the conversation.

You asked me about stolen guns and straw purchases.

Universal background checks reduce interstate gun trafficking in states where it has been implemented and increased likelihood of enforcement against those in possession of stolen guns and enforcement against straw purchases.
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Well, the thread is about a mass murder, so I assumed you were posting in line with the topic of the thread.

Correct, I did ask about that. I don't see that being addressed in your response.

increased likelihood of enforcement against those in possession of stolen guns and enforcement against straw purchases
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How? The theft or purchase has already been made once the felon is caught in possession of a gun. If the owner / purchaser is still in possession, no crime has been committed in terms of possession of a firearm.
 
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mysticmac said:
How? The theft or purchase has already been made once the felon is caught in possession of a gun. If the owner / purchaser is still in possession, no crime has been committed in terms of possession of a firearm.
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I didn't say that it prevented it. I said enforcement. Feel free to search my post for straw purchases and I've already discussed more than I feel like going in circles with the next person on this topic.

If you don't know who is supposed to be in legal possession of the gun, you can't enforce whether that person has a stolen gun or a bought gun, a borrowed gun, or a straw purchased gun.

Like CCTV doesn't prevent crime, but does act as both enforcement and deterrent. So does enforcing any of our laws. We do not have the ability to enforce them right now for most crime guns.
 
Filthy

Filthy

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Splinty said:
No idea. All I know is that day haven't had much of a gun registry for 10 years and when a gun is used in a crime, it's difficult to trace back at any significant level. When they do manage to trace them back, they're often back to the United States.



Should we just get rid of FFL background checks too?

Should we not infringe the right to keep and bear arms without due process?
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How many criminals do you think the FFL check prevents from getting weapons?

I don't mind the FFL background check, as long as its a "shall issue" system.

I also think that most felons should have their firearm rights re-instated when their sentence is served (same for voting rights).
If society can't trust someone with a firearm, they probably shouldn't be out in society, no?
 
mysticmac

mysticmac

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Splinty said:
If you don't know who is supposed to be in legal possession of the gun, you can't enforce whether that person has a stolen gun or a bought gun, a borrowed gun, or a straw purchased gun.
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It sounds like you would like a national gun registry. I have good news for you. The ATF is already doing that despite that fact it is illegal.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PokL9HjQ50s


Splinty said:
Like CCTV doesn't prevent crime, but does act as both enforcement and deterrent. So does enforcing any of our laws. We do not have the ability to enforce them right now for most crime guns.
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In the case of CCTV, it aids in enforcement against the criminal. Storage laws just make criminals out of victims.

There are also no laws requiring someone to have CCTV.
 
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Filthy said:
But if society can't trust someone with a firearm, they probably shouldn't be out in society, no
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No. This is a common trope on gun forums. That sounds good on the surface and then ignores the medical side of how suicide and homicide comes to be. Both tend to be transient situations that dissipate once the impulsivity and internal crisis is gone.

You can easily trust somebody to be a society member before and after said crisis. But you will never get that chance if they convert that crisis into a murder or suicide.

But again coupling.
Means and motive are needed. The motive is not permanent in most cases. Rehabilitation and alteration of course through societal changes or mental health services will not have a chance to happen when guns convert transient behavior to something that requires societal penalty or results in that person's death.

Guns are factually part of the problem.
 
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mysticmac said:
It sounds like you would like a national gun registry.
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In some ways that's exactly what would happen with universal background checks. It is the reason it hasn't happened and you and I both know this and we know all the back and forth and blah blah blah blah blah


The reality is I don't want to hear another person tell me about "We just need to enforce our current laws before we write new ones" when we have a system that makes it impossible to enforce the laws against the main reason for possession of crime guns.
I agree. We should be enforcing them and we should be supporting law enforcement's ability to identify someone in possession of a stolen gun with ease. We should be identifying somebody who has a gun that did not undergo a background check. That's a fast shot to straw purchase identification.
 
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mysticmac said:
Okay, so if you were not implying storage laws, then how do you suggest lowering the number of stolen guns?
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Universal background checks allowing easier enforcement of possession of stolen guns. Required training for a lot of gun ownership that involves focus on safety and legality like we already do for CHL. Ad campaigns the same way we do with any other number of safety items.
 
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Splinty said:
Universal background checks allowing easier enforcement of possession of stolen guns. Required training for a lot of gun ownership that involves focus on safety and legality like we already do for CHL. Ad campaigns the same way we do with any other number of safety items.
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dude it’s not even worth making an attempt, just give up and learn to bathe in the waves of violence
 
mysticmac

mysticmac

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Splinty said:
Universal background checks allowing easier enforcement of possession of stolen guns. Required training for a lot of gun ownership that involves focus on safety and legality like we already do for CHL. Ad campaigns the same way we do with any other number of safety items.
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Background checks do nothing to affect possession of a stolen gun. Once the gun is reported as stolen and the person in possession is stopped by the police, the police will check to see if it has been reported stolen. They also check to see if the person is a prohibited possessor.

So someone teaching you how to safely operate a gun wouldn't count. Instead, it would need to come from a certified instructor as part of a class that the owner would have to pay for. I doubt that half a day class would make a difference beyond just going shooting with a responsible gun owner that is willing to show you the ropes. I don't know about you, but I have a father that taught me gun safety from an early age. I've also learned a lot from other family and friends. Many gun owners enjoy introducing new people to new guns, and teaching them how to safely operate them. Anyone who wants to can take a training course. There is nothing stopping them. I trust my family and friends much more than a stranger, certified or otherwise. Simply because someone hasn't paid for a training course does not make me think they are unfit to carry a gun in society. Most gun owners are responsible people. I do agree that people should take the time to learn how to safely operate their firearm(s). If they don't have access to someone willing to just teach them, a training course better than nothing. I don't think it should be required by law.

Earlier you brought up your military training. That is much different than carrying a self defense weapon as a civilian. The military engages the target as part of their mission. Civilians defend themselves and those around them when their circumstance unfortunately requires them to do so. Only criminals do otherwise within a civilized society.

Maybe training is required in Texas for a CHL. It isn't here. I don't think most states require it. I went to the courthouse, filled out a form, had my fingerprints taken, and a fee, and waited a month while they did a background check on my and mailed me my carry license. I also had to give up my HIPPA rights, so the state troopers could verify my mental health history.

The NRA and other gun rights organizations already do a lot to promote safe gun usage / ownership, but most people ignore them because "guns are bad mmmkay". I'm sure more could be done, but a I'm also sure it would be shunned by the anti-gun lobby.
 
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Lars said:
dude it’s not even worth making an attempt, just give up and learn to bathe in the waves of violence
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The national gun conversation is just run by contrarians arguing to eventually do nothing. The result won't be anything more than my guns getting banned.

Gun ownership continues to decline and it will just become less and less cool and more fringe as the conversation is dominated by a culture of fetishist justifying unpopular positions.

1653680865851.png

When this pendulum swings, and it will, It won't be regulating training and safe use. It will be bans.

The middle is being eroded on this subject. And I've only got the gun lobby and gun owners to blame. We are a minority of America and refuse to give an inch to the majority.
 
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Splinty said:
The national gun conversation is just run by contrarians arguing to eventually do nothing. The result won't be anything more than my guns getting banned.

Gun ownership continues to decline and it will just become less and less cool and more fringe as the conversation is dominated by a culture of fetishist justifying unpopular positions.

View attachment 68793

When this pendulum swings, and it will, It won't be regulating training and safe use. It will be bans.

The middle is being eroded on this subject. And I've only got the gun lobby and gun owners to blame. We are a minority of America and refuse to give an inch to the majority.
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they’re not violent, but they will kill u if u try to stop them
 
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