The "Left" Has Lost Me

[member 1013]

Liberalism is fine as long as it is tethered with libertariansim. In short, it is great to help those less fortunate as long as you consider the freedoms of others. Unfortunately, leftist extremists are often facist (yes Q @Qat, I used that word again. Not at you, or even your posts though).

No baiting mofuckah

*REPORTED*

 

[Leigh]

No baiting mofuckah

*REPORTED*

Haha, it's a bit of a private joke as we had a PM discussion about it

 

[member 1013]

Just fucking around. I would love to have Q @Qat in this thread or any other.

 

[Disciplined Galt]

Good question! I'll have to ask around actually since most of the time when I run into ladyboys they're on the clock andworking with other ladyboys, I know they get conscripted from time to time and that causes a bit of a stir.

 

[1031]

Nobody cares about being politically correct, it's just a talking point. People keep spewing disgusting thoughts and somebody is still always there to say they are being stopped from doing it, yet literally every day we still hear something that is supposed to be off-limits. The media is another argument with no basis, somebody needs to detail EXACTLY what the media needs to do to their satisfaction because they aren't ever going to satisfy everyone. Affirmative Action? Who exactly benefits from this and why is such a tiny non-issue always the first thing debated about? I can't believe people still mention affirmative action, the 2 jobs it placed this week were likely for non-minority women.

I'll agree with you about Government, the 2 party system is created strictly for gridlock, not checks and balances, but that's mostly because everybody hates each other.

They come up with the same proposals different years and then pretend they never did if the other party decides to implement it.

I'll reread this again later but as it is right now, I have no idea what points you had intended to communicate nor what your questions are asking.

 

[KWingJitsu]

Me too... and the right has lost me too.

So what's left?

Radical independent thought.
It's shocking and new and something people should try.
Scary at first, but liberating (libertarian?).

 

[member 1013]

Me too... and the right has lost me too.

So what's left?

Radical independent thought.
It's shocking and new and something people should try.
Scary at first, but liberating (libertarian?).

I'm gonna start the RIP party of Canada

 

[member 1013]

Liberalism is fine as long as it is tethered with libertariansim. In short, it is great to help those less fortunate as long as you consider the freedoms of others. Unfortunately, leftist extremists are often facist and want to impose their skewed sense of morality on everyone else (yes Q @Qat, I used that word again. Not at you, or even your posts though).

That's the thing, by definition liberty and freedom are at the core of what liberalism is. But people have forgotten what the word truly means and stands for. I am agreeing with you by the way, so don't UFC me bro.

 

[KWingJitsu]

Here's the thing about "political correctness".

 

[member 1013]

Here's the thing about "political correctness".

so deep

 

[member 1013]

 

[Qat]

I don't ever remember him being that dense but I'm guessing that if you get exposed to the message that if you just accuse someone of being this or that, you "win."

Did you win by accusing him of being dense?

In many ways these liberals seek to undermine and even neuter our society and the ideals upon which it is based. As an example I would site the German Chancellor Angela Merkel. I would argue that she is in fact no fan of liberal democracy. This woman refuses to heed the will of her people in anyway. Furthermore, she constantly seeks to undermine and impose her will on the sovereign democracies of Western Europe through her hegemony of the European Union. A self confessed hater of "nationalism," she threw away a German flag a minister was trying to wave at a press conference. She looked disgusted. However she mistakes the fact that people identify as part of a nation state as the unconstrained nationalism of men like Adolf Hitler. She is disconnected both from the people whom she is supposed to represent and Europe as a whole.

Yes and no, in a way.
But I think you give her too much credit on actually having an agenda other than to stay in power. This agenda though leads to her more or less actually doing what the public wants though, at least concerning domestic politics.
Also, she is the head of the moderate right and conservative party, not really a liberal one, and by no means a leftist one.
She actually had the liberal party in a coalition at one point, and they were utterly destroyed by her. (going from 14,6 % in 2009, to 4,8 % in 2013, while 5% is the hurdle to make it into our parliament). She really has a knack of rolling off the negativity to the coalition partners, while staying in power herself. She totally made them her bitch, and people hated them for that.

The thing about her is, she seemingly has no clear stance on anything and always beats around the bush, not committing. Thus, she can always go where the wind blows, if she chooses to do that. So she can and will do what the people want if she thinks it will help her stay in power. Isn't that quite democratic in principle?
Best example: Fukushima-aftermath.
While her party traditionally is a proponent of safe nuclear power, after Fukushima she saw the public getting nervous about this shit, and the parties that are against it rising in the poles. So what did she do? Uncharacteristically she just decided to immediately start stopping all nuclear plants in Germany, and by that taking the wind out of any other party who wanted to take action on that one.
And trust me, everybody was surprised by that move.
That was an extreme action going against her own party, that costs a lot of money, since terminating those contracts with the operator companies is freaking expensive. Of course it takes a couple of years to get every nuclear plant off grid anyway.
At the same time a big initiative on clean energy was started, again something other parties primarily stood for, not quite her own at all.
And she is like that on a lot of issues. She lets her henchmen talk, and if they get burned by it, she drops them and might go in another direction. It really is kinda fascinating how she makes it work, because her party has not changed at all. But honestly, right now it is really hard to see a good challenger for her.

So is she a good leader? I don't know. Something holds her in power in her own party though, and it seems in Europe she is bossing around the people as well, albeit not publically.
She definitely is a good manager, is rational and very smart, much smarter than she lets on. Imposing her will, she is good on that, absolutely.

Then you have people like the Mayor of Cologne, a woman who blamed the victims of the mass sexual assaults on NYE and advised women on a "code of conduct" to be out on the street with these new arrivals. This theme of victim blaming in regards to sexual assault victims has been growing. This is one of the most interesting things I have observed, the same far left liberals who rail against "rape culture" insisting that the victims are at fault and seemingly blindly defending a group that views their whole set of ideals as evil.

While she was absolutely out of line with that one, she is an old woman who shouldn't have answered that question without a briefing first, haha.
But you yourself make it out to be something far more extreme than it was. She was asked what women can do to protect themselves better in such a situation, and her answer was stupid, sure.
But saying that she blamed the victims, my dear outraged Lars, is not the case.
The funny thing is, she got a lot of heat for that. In a way the outrage culture you describe here turned their eyes on her after that, including you now.

 

[ThatOneDude]

Unfortunately caught in the cross fire are those like the professor and his wife at Yale or the University President forced to apologize for saying "all lives matter" in support of a certain movement for black equality.

This blows my mind the most

In many ways these liberals seek to undermine and even neuter our society and the ideals upon which it is based.

Agreed but unfortunately the right of Center is going the same thing.

Then you have people like the Mayor of Cologne, a woman who blamed the victims of the mass sexual assaults on NYE and advised women on a "code of conduct" to be out on the street with these new arrivals.

Do you have a source for this? That's fucking insane if true.


Good post man.

 

[member 1013]

The funny thing is, she got a lot of heat for that. In a way the outrage culture you describe here turned their eyes on her after that, including you now.

You son of a bitch.

 

[member 1013]

While she was absolutely out of line with that one, she is an old woman who shouldn't have answered that question without a briefing first, haha.
But you yourself make it out to be something far more extreme than it was. She was asked what women can do to protect themselves better in such a situation, and her answer was stupid, sure.
But saying that she blamed the victims, my dear outraged Lars, is not the case.
The funny thing is, she got a lot of heat for that. In a way the outrage culture you describe here turned their eyes on her after that, including you now.

She did not say "It was youse sluts fault" but if a right wing politician said that they would be crucified for both their "victim blaming mentality" and being a rape apologist. It's the wrong thing for anyone to say in response to that. One of the key responsibilities of the state is the security of her citizens, they should not have to be afraid in public on their own streets. It is their home.

I'm not so much outraged, as bemused by her cognitive dissonance.

Thanks for your insights and well reasoned posts from the perspective of a citizen of Germany. I get everything through media filters so your opinion is valuable to me.

 

[member 1013]

Do you have a source for this? That's fucking insane if true.

Cologne Mayor's 'code of conduct' to prevent sexual assault angers many - BBC News
Cologne Mayor's 'code of conduct' to prevent sexual assault angers many
Cologne Mayor Henriette Reker has drawn ridicule online for proposing a "code of conduct" for women to prevent sexual assault, advising them to remain at "an arm's length" from strangers.

Amidst the controversy and protests following a series of sexual assaults in Cologne on New Year's Eve, the city's mayor has waded into the debate with a suggestions for how women can help avoid danger, which have proved highly controversial online.

 

[ThatOneDude]

That's kind of fucked up. It's their home, women shouldn't have to adjust their social norms because some people with a stone age mentality can't handle their shit and are asking for refuge.

 

[member 1013]

That's kind of fucked up. It's their home, women shouldn't have to adjust their social norms because some people with a stone age mentality can't handle their shit and are asking for refuge.

Quite. In fact the state should be beating these people over the head before , during and post relocation how unacceptable that behavior is in Western society, and that they will be punished for violations.

We should not be afraid to vigorously and steadfastly protect our values and traditions.

 

[Qat]

One of the key responsibilities of the state is the security of her citizens, they should not have to be afraid in public on their own streets. It is their home.

Agree 100%.

Cologne Mayor's 'code of conduct' to prevent sexual assault angers many - BBC News
Cologne Mayor's 'code of conduct' to prevent sexual assault angers many
Cologne Mayor Henriette Reker has drawn ridicule online for proposing a "code of conduct" for women to prevent sexual assault, advising them to remain at "an arm's length" from strangers.

Amidst the controversy and protests following a series of sexual assaults in Cologne on New Year's Eve, the city's mayor has waded into the debate with a suggestions for how women can help avoid danger, which have proved highly controversial online.

That makes it sound as if she came on to the press conference and just blurted out: women should do this and that, then this doesn't happen.
That is not the case.
I mean, I agree that what she said was out of line, it was a brainfart.
But saying she blamed the victims is not correct and blows this way out of proportion in my eyes.
Making fun of it like the one politician from Berlin was exactly the right response.

 

[member 1013]

Agree 100%.

That makes it sound as if she came on to the press conference and just blurted out: women should do this and that, then this doesn't happen.
That is not the case.
I mean, I agree that what she said was out of line, it was a brainfart.
But saying she blamed the victims is not correct and blows this way out of proportion in my eyes.

Bro I learned all about victim blaming in sociology class, you don't tell me things!



So she has been unfairly criticized by the right wing medias? (serious question)

Making fun of it like the one politician from Berlin was exactly the right response.

What did they say? Something in German I bet.

 

[1031]

Did you win by accusing him of being dense?

I didn't approach the discussion from a win/lose mentality but he, apparently, did not.

Making fun of it like the one politician from Berlin was exactly the right response.

So if I understand you correctly, making fun of women being sexually assaulted and raped by groups of foreign men is the correct response. If it was your girlfriend, wife, sister, daughter or mother would your opinion change?

 

[Qat]

What did they say? Something in German I bet.

Basically just using sarcasm to show how ridiculous it is what she said.

So if I understand you correctly, making fun of women being sexually assaulted and raped by groups of foreign men is the correct response. If it was your girlfriend, wife, sister, daughter or mother would your opinion change?

You don't understand me correctly.
Making fun of what the mayor of cologne said, with the arms length and stuff, some of it is even covered in the BBC-article I believe.
If someone says something ridiculous, sarcasm is a better response than outrage imho.

Btw. a bit more about Merkel perhaps.
So the thing is, her party, the CDU, is the most right that is 'acceptable' in the main public's eyes. Everything that is more to the right is seen (and pretty much justifiable) as neo-nazi-parties. Some stupid idiots roaming around there.

So basically no matter how much to the left her policies were, her party did not change in the stances.
Which means that the people had no other acceptable choice but to still vote them if they wanted more right-wing policies.
Its actually an interesting dynamic too since they have a sister party in the CSU that is a tad more to the right, but on the national theatre both of them together form the Union.

So the CSU is a perfect instrument for her to cater to the people who want to vote reasonable right-wing, and also provides her with politicians to talk the right-wing talk and see what the public thinks. Not only on immigration, refugees, but also the EU and everything else.
And she can seamlessly dig into that or distance herself from that without any backlash on her. While using the CDU-politicians and even ministers from a coalition party for other issues in a similar way.
Impressive.
She knows how to play the game and has an iron grip on her party internally.

And for voters, she made herself alternativeless for large portions of the public while not being tangible on many issues at all.
But if, then she knows how to make a good move and conquer issues of other parties.
Like the nuclear thing, can you imagine such an extreme decision in any other big country with similar systems? She basically showed 20 middle-fingers to an industry and companies with a lot of pull, a big lobby and a lot of capital, that largely supported her and especially her party and coalition. She imposed her will on everyone, including her own party. She got balls man.
For other politicians that would have been their last decision in power. She comes out of it unscathed.

Whether I vote for her party or not, this woman - who seemingly lacks any charisma - and how she does it is very interesting to me. And should be to everyone following politics.

Interestingly though, recently a new party formed that is a little right of the CSU, and far right of Merkel, in the AfD. They have to walk a difficult line in not getting too far right though, but can potentially break into that dynamic and make her lose a significant amount of voters.

Furthermore, she constantly seeks to undermine and impose her will on the sovereign democracies of Western Europe through her hegemony of the European Union.

Now the machinations in the EU seem a bit inscrutable. And yeah, the system is fucked in a lot of ways, but we have to deal with how it is right now.
(beware, clear antagonist role, a bit played up)
And personally I do not find it wrong that we as Germans take a leading role since we by far are pumping the most money into it and are taking the most risks. Its just the way it goes.
A lot of the complaining is political banter as well.
I don't think we are taking an unreasonable approach at large, and if they don't want to deal with us, don't take our money, bitches.
Is it not correct that we bleed a lot for the EU? We pay the most, we have the largest roles in bailing out the countries, we take the most refugees, we do this, we do that, we take the most risks.
You can't just expect to take advantage of us all the time, and if we have demands ourselves you go back to the world-wars or complain that our economy is too strong.. Well tough shit.

Its not our fault that other countries failed to manage their economies well before and/or after the switch to the Euro, but we understand that the Euro makes it hard for some now, and we are willing to support. But unconditionally? Where does it stop then? We have to think of ourselves as well and what is reasonable to us. That is a normal process I think.

 

[1031]

Basically just using sarcasm to show how ridiculous it is what she said.

You don't understand me correctly.
Making fun of what the mayor of cologne said, with the arms length and stuff, some of it is even covered in the BBC-article I believe.
If someone says something ridiculous, sarcasm is a better response than outrage imho.

My mistake. I don't know if I agree with sarcasm being the best tool but I clearly didn't understand the context of your comment or the full story.

 

[member 1013]

Basically just using sarcasm to show how ridiculous it is what she said.

You don't understand me correctly.
Making fun of what the mayor of cologne said, with the arms length and stuff, some of it is even covered in the BBC-article I believe.
If someone says something ridiculous, sarcasm is a better response than outrage imho.

Btw. a bit more about Merkel perhaps.
So the thing is, her party, the CDU, is the most right that is 'acceptable' in the main public's eyes. Everything that is more to the right is seen (and pretty much justifiable) as neo-nazi-parties. Some stupid idiots roaming around there.

So basically no matter how much to the left her policies were, her party did not change in the stances.
Which means that the people had no other acceptable choice but to still vote them if they wanted more right-wing policies.
Its actually an interesting dynamic too since they have a sister party in the CSU that is a tad more to the right, but on the national theatre both of them together form the Union.

So the CSU is a perfect instrument for her to cater to the people who want to vote reasonable right-wing, and also provides her with politicians to talk the right-wing talk and see what the public thinks. Not only on immigration, refugees, but also the EU and everything else.
And she can seamlessly dig into that or distance herself from that without any backlash on her. While using the CDU-politicians and even ministers from a coalition party for other issues in a similar way.
Impressive.
She knows how to play the game and has an iron grip on her party internally.

And for voters, she made herself alternativeless for large portions of the public while not being tangible on many issues at all.
But if, then she knows how to make a good move and conquer issues of other parties.
Like the nuclear thing, can you imagine such an extreme decision in any other big country with similar systems? She basically showed 20 middle-fingers to an industry and companies with a lot of pull, a big lobby and a lot of capital, that largely supported her and especially her party and coalition. She imposed her will on everyone, including her own party. She got balls man.
For other politicians that would have been their last decision in power. She comes out of it unscathed.

Whether I vote for her party or not, this woman - who seemingly lacks any charisma - and how she does it is very interesting to me. And should be to everyone following politics.

Interestingly though, recently a new party formed that is a little right of the CSU, and far right of Merkel, in the AfD. They have to walk a difficult line in not getting too far right though, but can potentially break into that dynamic and make her lose a significant amount of voters.


Now the machinations in the EU seem a bit inscrutable. And yeah, the system is fucked in a lot of ways, but we have to deal with how it is right now.
(beware, clear antagonist role, a bit played up)
And personally I do not find it wrong that we as Germans take a leading role since we by far are pumping the most money into it and are taking the most risks. Its just the way it goes.
A lot of the complaining is political banter as well.
I don't think we are taking an unreasonable approach at large, and if they don't want to deal with us, don't take our money, bitches.
Is it not correct that we bleed a lot for the EU? We pay the most, we have the largest roles in bailing out the countries, we take the most refugees, we do this, we do that, we take the most risks.
You can't just expect to take advantage of us all the time, and if we have demands ourselves you go back to the world-wars or complain that our economy is too strong.. Well tough shit.

Its not our fault that other countries failed to manage their economies well before and/or after the switch to the Euro, but we understand that the Euro makes it hard for some now, and we are willing to support. But unconditionally? Where does it stop then? We have to think of ourselves as well and what is reasonable to us. That is a normal process I think.

I am not talking so much about the economic issues, more the complete undermining of national borders and the ability of supposedly democratic nations to secure their borders and control immigration, as well as the deterioration of other sovereign powers and abilities vis a vis the unholy alliance of Merkel and Hollande.

You are free to disagree. I personally think the E.U. is off the rails and a disgrace, an experiment gone awry.

 

[Qat]

I am not talking so much about the economic issues, more the complete undermining of national borders and the ability of supposedly democratic nations to secure their borders and control immigration, as well as the deterioration of other sovereign powers and abilities vis a vis the unholy alliance of Merkel and Hollande.

You are free to disagree. I personally think the E.U. is off the rails and a disgrace, an experiment gone awry.

I like the open borders and basically the opportunities it gives for EU-citizens. For travel as well. Of course it changes things though in case of immigration issues and so forth.
If Americans complain about people from the south, we can do so too. A lot of young Spaniards, Italians etc. come here for economic reasons. And they could be seen as North-African-looking too! Haha.
I'm not bothered by it though.
About everything else and the bureaucracy.. I somewhat agree. Its a behemoth that in its current form is pretty much shit. But its natural that you have to give some things up to join a bigger cause, its still in transition, is it failed yet? Hmm. We will see.

How should it be in your eyes?