Why do so many Americans reject socialism?

[Leigh]

Two simple questions:
1) should your taxes fund a national healthcare system?
2) should your taxes subsidise higher education?

Even most moderate and politically neutral Americans would answer no to these questions, despite the fact that most would be far better off.

I'm not proposing a tax increase, BTW. Just a redistribution of tax spending.

Why is that? Residual fear of "communists" from the cold war? Would social programs like these work in the US?

There is quite a large class divide in the US, with Jim Crow laws still existing until the 1960s etc. Maybe the adjustments need to be more gradual.

 

[ThatOneDude]

1) no, have you seen the single payer us government run healthcare system that is the VA?

2) probably money better spent on that than other shit.

 

[SNIDELY WHIPLASH]

Americans don't even blink if a CEO gets an extra 10 million for the same job he did last year (as did the ceo of JP Morgan). They'll just write it off as he worked hard for it. Americans aren't the best at looking out for themselves.

 

[Leigh]

1) no, have you seen the single payer us government run healthcare system that is the VA?

2) probably money better spent on that than other shit.

1) No, I haven't. I've seen tax payer funded healthcare systems in other parts of the world and they seem vastly more appealing than paying hundreds (or thousands) a month in medical insurance premiums.

 

[ThatOneDude]

1) No, I haven't. I've seen tax payer funded healthcare systems in other parts of the world and they seem vastly more appealing than paying hundreds (or thousands) a month in medical insurance premiums.

I agree, the VA systems is the only government run healthcare I've dealt with as a civilian. If how that is run is any indication of how a single payer system would work in our society then no thanks. It's an absolute mess.

Now I do like the idea of a single payer system IF we could get it to work here. I think the current Healthcare system is fucked and obamacare didn't do much outside of raise people's insurance premiums.

 

[Hauler]

1. I don't really have a problem with that, but I'd want qualifiers tied to the tax amounts. Things like weight, blood pressure, fitness level, past usage. The people that use it and are at a higher risk should pay a higher tax (with a cap of course). It would be a good incentive to get this nation to focus on living a healthy lifestyle. But I will add that I'm very leery about anything that's government controlled.

2. No. Not everyone is college material. Part of the problem with this country is that everyone *thinks* you have to go to college to get a high paying job and that you'll be looked down upon if you don't get that degree. There's a shortage of skilled labor right now, but there's no shortage of over-educated graduates who are in debt up to their eyeballs and bring virtually nothing to the workforce. Giving everyone the "right" to go to college and prolong entering the real world does nothing but weaken this country. Advanced education is important for fields such as doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc. But we don't need an entire nation getting their History and Social Science degrees just because it's free. If people want to learn about those fields, I applaud them. Just don't expect me to foot the bill.

 

[ThatOneDude]

1. I don't really have a problem with that, but I'd want qualifiers tied to the tax amounts. Things like weight, blood pressure, fitness level, past usage. The people that use it should pay a higher tax (with a cap of course). It would be a good incentive to get this nation to focus on living a healthy lifestyle. But I will add that I'm very leery about anything that's government controlled.

2. No. Not everyone is college material. Part of the problem with this country is that everyone *thinks* you have to go to college to get a high paying job and that you'll be looked down upon if you don't get that degree. There's a shortage of skilled labor right now, but there's no shortage of over-educated graduates who are in debt up to their eyeballs and bring virtually nothing to the workforce. Giving everyone the "right" to go to college and prolong entering the real world does nothing but weaken this country. Advanced education is important for fields such as doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc. But we don't need an entire nation getting their History and Social Science degrees just because it's free. If people want to learn about those fields, I applaud them. Just don't expect me to foot the bill.

I agree, I wish guidance counselors would talk more to kids about trade schools. I know I wish mine did.

 

[Leigh]

1. I don't really have a problem with that, but I'd want qualifiers tied to the tax amounts. Things like weight, blood pressure, fitness level, past usage. The people that use it and are at a higher risk should pay a higher tax (with a cap of course). It would be a good incentive to get this nation to focus on living a healthy lifestyle. But I will add that I'm very leery about anything that's government controlled.

2. No. Not everyone is college material. Part of the problem with this country is that everyone *thinks* you have to go to college to get a high paying job and that you'll be looked down upon if you don't get that degree. There's a shortage of skilled labor right now, but there's no shortage of over-educated graduates who are in debt up to their eyeballs and bring virtually nothing to the workforce. Giving everyone the "right" to go to college and prolong entering the real world does nothing but weaken this country. Advanced education is important for fields such as doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc. But we don't need an entire nation getting their History and Social Science degrees just because it's free. If people want to learn about those fields, I applaud them. Just don't expect me to foot the bill.

1) studies show that unhealthy people are typically less of a burden on the health care system. I know it's counterintuitive but they die younger. Some health nut living to 105 costs more overall. In any case, some people are naturally prone to certain conditions. How would that be managed?

2) I agree that some (most?) people are not cut out for university. The system would have to require a certain level of academic achievement. You couldn't flunk school and sign up for a degree. I personally think that those who qualify should get free education in STEM fields.

 

[Leigh]

I agree, I wish guidance counselors would talk more to kids about trade schools. I know I wish mine did.

If guidance counselors knew anything about achieving a career....

 

[Sweets]

Two names Stalin and Mcarthy.

 

[Leigh]

Two names Stalin and Mcarthy.

Can you expand?

 

[Hauler]

1) studies show that unhealthy people are typically less of a burden on the health care system. I know it's counterintuitive but they die younger. Some health nut living to 105 costs more overall. In any case, some people are naturally prone to certain conditions. How would that be managed?

Most "studies" are done with an agenda in mind. I'm sure there are studies out there that show the exact opposite.

 

[Robbie Hart]

@Leigh
Americans will typically just say no to the healthcare system and will point to the utter shambles which is that of the NHS which they are trying to privatise whether we want to think that or not.
I hear "oh you guys have that system but I heard it's terrible and you can't get operations when you need them and blah, blah blah".
Being from there I would have thought it impossible to even consider whatever that Obama care thing is, but they are trying something and I would think what a joke that is, at least that's what I hear.
Also, there is a shitload of money that goes into the medical industry pay as you go system. Medical devices, pharma, etc that give a shitload of money to the govt to keep things under control and in their best interests for the most part. Shit, half of the pharmaceutical company board members are former or present govt congressman, senators etc. They will do everything they can to keep the door closed on this.
Don't know if I actually produced anything relevant but that is my take.

 

[Leigh]

Most "studies" are done with an agenda in mind. I'm sure there are studies out there that show the exact opposite.

We can list them if you like

 

[Robbie Hart]

@Leigh habr you watched "Sicko" done by Michael Moore? He's a bit biased but that documentary will open your eyes to some of the facts about the medical industry......ironically, I watched it in the states before I moved over here and it opened my eyes up a bit.....it's worth watching.

 

[Leigh]

@Leigh habr you watched "Sicko" done by Michael Moore? He's a bit biased but that documentary will open your eyes to some of the facts about the medical industry......ironically, I watched it in the states before I moved over here and it opened my eyes up a bit.....it's worth watching.

No. I've seen a couple of Moore's films and he seems like quite a cunt. But you are right, the medical industry seems very money orientated and people seem to accept that.

 

[Psychotropic Wanderlust]

because it has been en-grained for generations to believe dumb shit

 

[Robbie Hart]

No. I've seen a couple of Moore's films and he seems like quite a cunt. But you are right, the medical industry seems very money orientated and people seem to accept that.

Twat is more like it and I hated him so much because I had to jump on the hate train or I was Unamerican.....I still think he is a tool but he does uncover some stuff that is very interesting and 95% of the population either doesn't know or the powers that be would rather you not know.

 

[Sweets]

Two names Stalin and Mcarthy.

See when the Germans moved Lenin and Trotsky from Switzerland to Russia on an armoured train and helped them foment revolution, they forgot to tell them to leash the Georgian gun runner Stalin or whatever his name was then. So he did what he did and was a very easy hate figure for a shell shuck post war America. Of course we know that they jumped all over the opportunity men like Mcarthy in the 50's crowed lies and shite about socialism, in fact they managed to make it illegal to be socialist, hilarious given their first amendment. This is where the anti socialist feeling in the states comes from today, seriously it's based on the ravings of Mcarthy and the actions of Joe Steel.

Edit- Dan Carlin is the source for that train thing.

 

[Leigh]

Twat is more like it and I hated him so much because I had to jump on the hate train or I was Unamerican.....I still think he is a tool but he does uncover some stuff that is very interesting and 95% of the population either doesn't know or the powers that be would rather you not know.

Fair statement. Fahrenheit 911 was informative but his bias hurts his credibility IMHO

 

[Psychotropic Wanderlust]

Twat is more like it and I hated him so much because I had to jump on the hate train or I was Unamerican.....I still think he is a tool but he does uncover some stuff that is very interesting and 95% of the population either doesn't know or the powers that be would rather you not know.

as a Canadian I dont mind Mike Moore. I think he posses some really good questions and has a few good documentaries / movies. I think he gets a lot of hate because he challenges peoples core beliefs. and he's a dick about it.

 

[Psychotropic Wanderlust]

Two names Stalin and Mcarthy.

Joey Stalin was a HORRID human. truly top 3 worst people to ever live and be in power.

worse than Hitler imo.

Mcarthy? guy was a talking piece moron.

Canada is a pretty socialist country and I love it.

socialism works if you have good laws to protect the people etc. that keeps your govt "honest"

 

[Sweets]

One quick off topic, what is people's problem with Michael Moore. Did he lie? Cheat? What is it?

 

[IschKabibble]

Medicine in America is broken.

I pay thousands of dollars per month just to insure our four employees, and there's still a deductible and co-pay to be considered. I've personally paid tens of thousands of dollars in healthcare premiums for myself over the last five years and I haven't been to the doctor in about eight. Granted my old man is a doc, and we work with a bunch of other docs, so I'm lucky to be well cared for, but what about people that don't have those connections?

It blows my mind that there are so many middle-class conservatives that blindly trust the very policies that were put in place against their interest. Private insurance is not in the business of keeping people well. Private insurance is in the business of making as much money as they can. The ACA enacted a few checks and balances that were beneficial to patients, but I still feel a single-payer system would run much more efficiently.

 

[IschKabibble]

One quick off topic, what is people's problem with Michael Moore. Did he lie? Cheat? What is it?

He's super liberal. So if you're on the other side, it's easy to hate the guy. Our 2-party system is so fucking stupid.